Combat logging no longer an exploit? * trigger warning *

Yeah, absolutely, though I've never had it happen to my, my Son explained it to me a while back, he'd been pounding this team in TF2 heading the match board by 50-60 kills (next down was about 12) and other players calling him "hacker" I asked why he didn't argue and he told me that he saw it as a compliment... "happens all the time" he said he'd even been banned from servers - he sees that as a compliment too
I was recently called "cheater" because my shields are too strong. What he actually meant to say is I'm a cheater because I use engineering 🤔
 
I play on XB and i can. The game has to be compliant with the console environment.

The tools provided by the console are long press on XBox button (turn off the console - by default it is more like a sleep mode than a shutdown) or short press on the XBox button (return to home). Going through the menu of the game is not mandatory - pretty much the same way it is not mandatory to buy another game to be able to register another account on the same console (free alts in ED on consoles)

So it is perfectly normal to press the home button of my controller and find myself at the home screen and start another game. For example Minecraft
I'm not forcefully closing ED. I get bored so i start another game - the console will kill the previous game to make room for the new game

Do you thing it FD would be entitled file a complain to MS: player with this gamertag cheated!
MS will ask: how did he cheated?
FD will have to answer: he started Minecraft and you guys forcefully closed our game.
🤷‍♂️
So your argument is that bypassing the game systems to affect your state in the game is not an exploit?

Do you have a good argument instead? This is just task-kill with an extra step.
 
If we consider unplugging an exploit, why do we not view Ganking/Griefing, if that's the right term, as bullying?

Because, in most cases, there is no way to demonstrate that it's bullying between players, rather than their characters, and the context of the game's setting allows and encourages far worse, from an in-character perspective.

No one can bully me via my character.

we legitimise appalling behaviour.

Appalling behavior is legitimate gameplay when it occurs in an in-game context.

My CMDR trades in slaves and murders cruise liner passengers for the parts the ships they ride in are made of. There is no way this is contextually not vastly worse than anything the game comes close to allowing him to do to another CMDR.

If someone thinks they, as a player, are being targeted for out-of-game abuse, with the game being used as a medium for it, they should report the individuals in question for harassement.

What they can do about is, is to simply make me explode on connection loss or if the game is exited - they haven't done anything in these regards, so....

They can't do this, because nothing can happen to your CMDR without your client, which wouldn't be running in these scenarios. This is why the prohibition against severing connection exists. It's a peer-to-peer game with about the simplest implementation possible, that has no provisions for what you describe.

All they can do is punish those that quit via means and in situations they have prohibited.

Requiring players to voluntarily play by the rules of a game--or be able to understand the difference between themselves, their imaginary characters, and what each would have access to--is clearly less than ideal and Frontier obviously wasn't prepared for how crappy people are, or they may have reconsidered the fundamental networking and rule enforcement framework of the thing. Probably too late to do that now.

Still, even with only the ToS/EULA and a basic understanding of how the game works, it should not be difficult to understand how severing one's connection for the purpose of escaping consequences influences the game in undesirable ways and why Frontier has explicitly clarified their stance on it as against the rules.

Many PvPers make no distinction between menu logging (15 sec timer) and ungraceful exit (pulling the cable). Here's my take on it:
Menu log: within the rules, not cheating but violates Wheaton's Law
Pulling the plug: breaks the rules, cheating and violates Wheaton's Law

The term Combat Log or Clog can refer to either of those actions. Personally, I take it as a compliment if a player CLogs vs me. I'm that good you can't escape any other way? :ROFLMAO:

The distinction is what Frontier claims they will do about it; nothing in the former case, potential bans in the latter.

Severing connection to preserve assets or otherwise influence in-game occurrences is explicitly prohibited.

Using the menu timer for the same reasons is abuse of the system for unintended purposes, but also something Frontier has explicitly said they aren't going to do anything about.

Leaving the game by any means cannot be called an exploit. Under no circumstances.

I vehemently disagree with this assertion.

If the only reason one is leaving the game is to prevent their immediately prior in-game actions from being preserved or to avoid consequences that have now become unavoidable through actual gameplay, that should clearly indicate an exploit/abuse.

If one cannot accept the implications of the networking model Frontier has chosen, one should refrain from playing.

Do you thing it FD would be entitled file a complain to MS: player with this gamertag cheated!
MS will ask: how did he cheated?
FD will have to answer: he started Minecraft and you guys forcefully closed our game.
🤷‍♂️

Frontier has warned a player who posted in this thread for exiting the game via the power button long press. Clearly they view such an action, when done to avoid gameplay one has already committed to, as cheating. Frontier also doesn't have to go through MS to enforce their view, should the warning be ignored.

 
Morbad, in reply to your latest post – yes thats what i meant! Like if you exit the game while in danger you die! There are mechanisms in place already, to check if thats the case! Imho this should be done to stop that discussions once for all… Personally I am only offended by some virtual rules set up not being explicitly included in the EULA by FD that won‘t hold any legal ground if faced by a real court. Killing an .exe / shutting down PC or console, connection loss is by definition not an exploit in the first place.
 
Frontier has warned a player who posted in this thread for exiting the game via the power button long press. Clearly they view such an action, when done to avoid gameplay one has already committed to, as cheating. Frontier also doesn't have to go through MS to enforce their view, should the warning be ignored.

If you do it to avoid consequences (force quit, then relog to solo/pg), the warning might be justifiable.
IF you simply close a game session for the day... not really.

In that particular case i do have a strong feeling that the player who quit the game only to log back in solo seconds later was on the receiving end of an automated answer triggered by a CLog report
IIRC we had a case publicized here on the forums last year when a CMDR that menu logged was reported for CLogging and received the infamous warning email.

I guess it can be easily tested by filing a report against someone for clogging (even if that someone performs a legit menu log or no logging at all) and see if that report triggers an email.

Anyway: i do find this part highly ironic, given the fact that a high number of PC CMDRS are using various automation tools (from the basic pip macro to some really advanced stuff)

We do not tolerate cheating of any kind in our online multiplayer games. This includes, but is not limited to, the use of automated scripts, programs or services offered outside of the game to generate a player advantage, altering game code or memory, sharing or trading account access with others or using cheat codes.
 
IIRC we had a case publicized here on the forums last year when a CMDR that menu logged was reported for CLogging and received the infamous warning email.
That was me. I menu logged in summer of 2018 and another player (not in the instance) submitted that video in 2019 to FDev support. Support did zero investigation and sent me the warning email. The reporting player has since been banned from the game.
 
That was me. I menu logged in summer of 2018 and another player (not in the instance) submitted that video in 2019 to FDev support. Support did zero investigation and sent me the warning email. The reporting player has since been banned from the game.

Thank you, Krash.
I knew it was you - at the time i was outraged by the entire situation, but i wasn't going to reveal names by my own :)
 
I was recently called "cheater" because my shields are too strong. What he actually meant to say is I'm a cheater because I use engineering 🤔
There is a world of difference between self sourcing and outsourcing ones reality both in and out of game...cheers to not outsourcing it :)
 
Be assured that if I ever would step into PvP I would give a crap about Wheaton's Law. Not because I'm generally against sportsmanship, but especially in ED where ganking and griefing defenceless explorers is supporteded by a huge part of PvPers. I even would call my ship "Wheaton's Law" and if only to drop a message.
Everyone violates Wheaton's Law to different degrees.
 
It is so simple....

Noone has any right at all to tell me which services and files I run on my PC as long as I do not alter their sourcecode oder inject any bad code or network traffic.

If I choose to taskkill an .exe or pull the network cable or enable a firewall etc. I am allowed to do so. They also cannot do anything legally about it like banning me from the game simply for maintaining my own services running in my private environment, since it is my basic right to exit any .exe whenever I want to do so in the first place. The EULA which I have agreed upon, does not state anything written about clogging and has not changed and forum posts by Frontier do not matter at all, they are not legally valid like the EULA is.

What they can do about is, is to simply make me explode on connection loss or if the game is exited - they haven't done anything in these regards, so....

You are right on that, but there is a but and it's a big but. You are not buying the game you buy a license to play it and FDev can revoke that license at any time.

I don't even know why there is an argument about it. FDev have stated and clarified their stance on combat logging and other things not allowed/tolerated in their game. After the first warning for clogging nobody can plead innocence anymore and any slightly competent lawyer can take the EULA and the warning and point to there it says it's not allowed. From interactions with other CMDRs I am very sure they hand out at least warnings for combat logging. FDev also stated what they see as harassment/bullying of another CMDR, asymmetrical fights are not. I also know that harassment is taken seriously and people have been banned for it, temp or permanent.
 
Be assured that if I ever would step into PvP I would give a crap about Wheaton's Law. Not because I'm generally against sportsmanship, but especially in ED where ganking and griefing defenceless explorers is supporteded by a huge part of PvPers. I even would call my ship "Wheaton's Law" and if only to drop a message.
Well I hope you never step into PvP and I hope I never see you in open o7
 

Deleted member 121570

D
I understand people have been warned (justifiably and not) for combat logging in a variety of different circumstances, and that each case is considered individually with probably varying degrees of investigation etc.
Has anyone ever been actually banned for it?

Anyway: i do find this part highly ironic, given the fact that a high number of PC CMDRS are using various automation tools (from the basic pip macro to some really advanced stuff)

That definitely sounds like overt cheating tbh. If you're automating in-game things with 3rd party tools, you're definitely breaking the EULA. I guess whether that's bannable though is also down to FDev...especially with things like Voice Attack. Still though...where do you draw the line? And why would you draw it there?

Fascinating conversation! :)
 
I play on XB and i can. The game has to be compliant with the console environment.

The tools provided by the console are long press on XBox button (turn off the console - by default it is more like a sleep mode than a shutdown) or short press on the XBox button (return to home). Going through the menu of the game is not mandatory - pretty much the same way it is not mandatory to buy another game to be able to register another account on the same console (free alts in ED on consoles)

So it is perfectly normal to press the home button of my controller and find myself at the home screen and start another game. For example Minecraft
I'm not forcefully closing ED. I get bored so i start another game - the console will kill the previous game to make room for the new game

Do you thing it FD would be entitled file a complain to MS: player with this gamertag cheated!
MS will ask: how did he cheated?
FD will have to answer: he started Minecraft and you guys forcefully closed our game.
🤷‍♂️
A lot of Xbox players have been getting banned for Clogging recently because it was discovered that if you report the clogger for "leaving game early" Xbox will in fact ban them. So yes, turning your console off or going to home and exiting is against Xbox policy and they will ban you for it.

Edit: Xbox is also much swifter and less forgiving at banning people than Frontier
 
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Perhaps, but it would be wise for him to abandon that attitude regardless.

Surely, this is a poor example to use in asserting that. Wisdom comes in many forms. Seeing, recognizing, and acting on data provided is wisdom in action. Kek, is/was right.
 
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