Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[IndigoWyrd]

Please. No.

Not all of us are, or aspire to be glassy eyed science nerds.

Just make it usable on the move, that's all fine.

I can’t mash Like enough here. Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. I’ve nothing agaist Coke-bottled-glasses-wearing nerds. I just don’t want to play their way. I want to play my way. Problem: our ways are not compatible, they’re exclusive. For me to play my way means they have to change theirs.

Since sodium and water don’t mix, someone has to win out, and the creators have decided who that is.

Edits: Typing on an iPhone sucks. It makes things up and annoys me.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I even wouldn't just remove it, instead using SC speed as a hook for some challenging gameplay without taking away any current functionality. The idea came last night to me when I was bothered by the well known bug where the whole scenery starts to rotate.

My first thought was like "hey that's the bug people were talking about" (and that just never appeared to me until recently for some strange reasons) and while it's not exactly 'immersive' (as in "why do the objects and orbital lines suddenly start to move at all, can't see any reason") I also found to my surprise that it's more fun to catch moving blobs compared to static ones. Then I got the idea:

Let the FSS be a computer assisted parallax system that, unlike our 'ancient' eyeball method, can also deal with radio- and gravity waves.

As anyone who has already used the parallax method knows, speed matters! The faster you go in SC the easier it is to separate the local bodies from the background stars***. Which in a computer assisted system should result in clearer resolutions of the 'clouds' at the expense of faster movements (similar to the bug) which in return would require increasingly accurate fetching skills. This new 'minigame' would be under full control by the player: From minimal SC speed (30m/s) which would change nothing compared to now (zero skill required), up to max SC speed where the bodies were more difficult to fetch but otherwise change from cloudy to crystal clear with increasing speed.

Not only would this allow to use the FSS in movement (but making the scanning process increasingly tricky), it also would allow to fully control of how challenging we want that process - solely controlled by our current SC speed. This also would address this silly perception of "just sitting behind a telescope" (which isn't quite true, but this would make it obvious).

The only downside is that some overloaded key assignments wouldn't work anymore, e.g. if you assign your stick to both ship control and FSS movement and which possibly was the main reason behind FD's zero throttle decision. So to keep this potential problem low I'd recommend to only allow the ship's throttle but not pitch and yaw.

***Not long ago I had my doubts whether the FSS would be able to work in movement - from a technical point of view. But now I think there are two strong indicators that suggest otherwise. Firstly the aforementioned bug behavior and secondly its 'natural' movement, as seen when entering the FSS screen in the same moment we throttle down: Since throttle has just a set speed function, it still takes a few seconds to reach SC zero but the FSS is already fully functional.

I'm using parallax almost exclusively to explore at this point, so I've been trying to figure out ways to integrate the 'blue blob' aspect of the FSS with the main HUD display, without making parallax itself redundant - which simply making the blue blobs visible in the HUD would do.

If I'm reading your suggestion correctly, you're still intending to utilize the tune-n-zoom aspect of the FSS - which is the functionality that I particularly despise.

My current thinking is more along the lines of X4 - which is sending a pulse out in front of the ship, which returns 'echoes' of objects which fade out over time. Being able to trigger a directed FSS pulse (60 degree cone in front of the ship - engineerable) which highlights bodies with blue blobs (in the main HUD) which fade out after a few seconds. This puts body discovery under the control of the player, without instantly populating the system or requiring playing of the minigame. There would be some kind of cooldown period between pulses and possibly some kind of heat or fuel penalty - otherwise it becomes a pointless spamming process (hello DSS!) with no tactical component.

This idea is still a work-in-progress and I have no hope or expectation that FDev will even consider it, but it's nice to daydream about these things.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I can’t mash Like enough here. Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. I’ve nothing agaist Coke-bottled-glasses-wearing nerds. I just don’t want to play their way. I want to play my way. Problem: our ways are not compatible, they’re exclusive. For me to play my way means they have to change theirs.

Since sodium and water don’t mix, someone has to win out, and the creators have decided who that is.

Edits: Typing on an iPhone sucks. It makes things up and annoys me.

Add healthcare to the military in the rapidly growing list of professions you should not engage in

 

[Riverside]

You’re where I was regarding surface exploration, after Frontier obviated SRV gameplay for surface exploration purposes. No amount of complaining to Frontier, no number of suggestions, was able to get Frontier to reverse their decision, and they never bothered to respond to my complaints. Most people were happy with that change, and this is also the case with the ADS.

This one has passed me by, what do you mean & when was this? I spent Oct16-March18 out on an anti-clockwise tour of the galaxy and a lot of that was spent searching planet surfaces for fumeroles both in the SRV & in the ship. I didn't see a large blue circle for nearly a year because I was on the other side of the galaxy. Since I returned I've generally used the SRV to find things like cargo & skimmer spawns, and the ship to find blue circles from >1.5km altitude. Are you referring to the LOD pop-in for small non-persistent POIs? I'm not aware of any loss of functionality from the way I play.

I am using the FSS, I don't have really a problem with using it, it just doesn't do a function the old one did do and the removal of functionality without good reason several years into the life of a game is not okay with me. It can be fixed with no loss to other players, so it should be fixed.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I can see you at the general court-martial explaining the loss of a third of your command...

“These brave men and women gave their lives to meet the objectives given to us, the field commanders, by our superiors at the Pentagon. Our orders have been released to the appropriate Congressional Oversight committees.”

There have been many battles with staggering casualty counts - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battles_by_casualties

D-Day was close to 10%, other battles were much higher on all sides.

But again, this is a game, not a war.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Please, don't kid yourself. Your side is the majority in this thread, but it would be a mistake to assume you are the majority of the players. The FSS works for most of us (well, at least for me, especially when they fix the current bug) but it's boring to repeat that at every chance we get.

You are the very vocal minority, we just enjoy the game too much to keep posting in such threads.
Get Over IT!!! It's a sign of growing up...

That's not the assumption that I made, the assumption is that there are more people wishing for the FSS to come back compared to those who do not want it back, the majority only want the FSS to stay and don't care about much else.

There are plenty of people who also hate the FSS who have left already or don't bother to post.

And you guys keep feeding threads like this, on another note, I know for a fact that grown ups can still cling at a few things so there's that.

 

[Darkfyre99]

This one has passed me by, what do you mean & when was this? I spent Oct16-March18 out on an anti-clockwise tour of the galaxy and a lot of that was spent searching planet surfaces for fumeroles both in the SRV & in the ship. I didn't see a large blue circle for nearly a year because I was on the other side of the galaxy. Since I returned I've generally used the SRV to find things like cargo & skimmer spawns, and the ship to find blue circles from >1.5km altitude. Are you referring to the LOD pop-in for small non-persistent POIs? I'm not aware of any loss of functionality from the way I play.

I am using the FSS, I don't have really a problem with using it, it just doesn't do a function the old one did do and the removal of functionality without good reason several years into the life of a game is not okay with me. It can be fixed with no loss to other players, so it should be fixed.

I’m referring to surface prospecting in order to determine what materials were on the surface of said planet during the Horizons Beta and for a brief while after it’s release: examining the colors of the surface features of a planet to determine what materials may be there, landing on said planet, deploying the SRV, reading the the wave scanner to find surface deposits, and then taking samples to see what’s actually there.

There was a whole group of us dedicated to unraveling this particular mystery of the Stellar Forge. We were happily scampering across the surface of planets, taking samples, entering and collating data, and just starting to see certain patterns (the 3-2-1 rule in particular) when Frontier decided that the DSS would just reveal everything as part of a Level 3 Scan. You didn’t even need to get within visual range of the planet, let alone land on it.

Frontier could’ve kept the SRV necessary for this reveal, either by filling in the blanks as we revealed them, or just after sampling something on the surface. They could’ve made collecting surface samples another type of exploration data to turn in, or even better, valuable cargo to carry back to the Bubble. Instead, Frontier killed the role the SRV had in exploration game play.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Yes indeed, no fundamental changes to the current mechanics. I look at my proposal as an "optional, self-balancing expansion" that would add nothing but gameplay. I didn't expect those who don't like the current implementation would suddenly change their mind. It was meant with those in mind who already like it but feel it could be a wee bit more interesting than just pointing at static blobs (including the 'bonus' of travel while scanning which I imagine could also attract one or the other FSS hater).

But a few words to the "tune-n-zoom aspect". Personally I really like it and I'm trying to figure what's so bad about it. Off the top of my head there's the chance you've never liked it in the first place and thus never gave yourself enough opportunities to get better with it. And don't tell me you are 'perfect' at it, that would be hard to believe. I for one wouldn't make such a bold claim an I'm using the FSS quite a lot in full system scans. Currently I'm doing full system scans even in 'pointless' systems, just for the fun of it and because it wasn't already pre-rendered (I'm currently out of the bubble).

Not sure if I'd go so far to call it the "gid gut" equivalent for explorers - though my proposal certainly would have this potential, proper implementation granted of course. Anyway, from reading a lot between the lines from other unhappy posters, their seems quite a few who already struggle with the current implementation. Those people will hate my proposed expansion with passion!

I freely admit I never liked the FSS even before I tried it - simply because, to me, exploration should involve flying one's ship around. The 'finding the bodies' aspect I could live with if it was separated from discovering what those bodies are. By tying the two parts together it breaks the flow of how I want to explore.

Mechanics-wise it's not complex - the spectrum is easy to memorize and moving the mouse around and sliding the frequency setting around takes no skill at all. 'Gitting gud' would only reduce the time it takes to scan a system and time obviously isn't a problem for me, since I'm happy spending it in supercruise to visit the planets. The repetitive nature of the task, together with the way it removes any sense of scale from a system means that using it is a grind for me.

Oh, and obviously the fact that in the (literally) 10 minutes I've spent using it (since my initial evaluation) I've discovered two separate bugs where the FSS lies about the system layout.

Your suggestion would at least introduce an element of skill to the gameplay, but it doesn't address any of the other issues I have with the FSS - not that it was intended to, obviously

Naturally all of this is just personal preference, but you did ask what was so bad about it - and honestly the answer currently is 'pretty much all of it'.

Errm, tell you what? Sounds like something I could really love! And with me 2 or 3 other players. Perhaps, with some luck...
Sounds like a pretty time consuming method, something I've no issues with. Though trust me, I'm in a very tiny minority here.

I can spend all the time in the world flying my pretend spaceship around a system - my current exploration process doesn't even require me to stop my ship

 

[Riverside]

I’m referring to surface prospecting in order to determine what materials were on the surface of said planet during the Horizons Beta and for a brief while after it’s release: examining the colors of the surface features of a planet to determine what materials may be there, landing on said planet, deploying the SRV, reading the the wave scanner to find surface deposits, and then taking samples to see what’s actually there.

There was a whole group of us dedicated to unraveling this particular mystery of the Stellar Forge. We were happily scampering across the surface of planets, taking samples, entering and collating data, and just starting to see certain patterns (the 3-2-1 rule in particular) when Frontier decided that the DSS would just reveal everything as part of a Level 3 Scan. You didn’t even need to get within visual range of the planet, let alone land on it.

Frontier could’ve kept the SRV necessary for this reveal, either by filling in the blanks as we revealed them, or just after sampling something on the surface. They could’ve made collecting surface samples another type of exploration data to turn in, or even better, valuable cargo to carry back to the Bubble. Instead, Frontier killed the role the SRV had in exploration game play.

Well it's all part of exploring, what you are describing is what I call black-boxing - you are inferring the inner workings of a device from observations. I understand how you feel about the challenge being removed, I felt a similar way about using 20,000ly route plotter and a high jump range ship to return to Beagle Point (and beyond) being trivially easy (plotted a straight line across the abyss) compared to spending three months picking my way assisted jump by assisted jump, creeping out the end of the Carina arm to eventually reach Beagle Point in my Corvette without using external help (ie googling a route), only the in-game tools.

I don't know whether you could still infer the mat ratios on a planet but it seems to me the game telling you (in an optional way) isn't removing functionality, you just enjoyed the challenge and the game was made easier as has happened so many times. Power Creep. Once it had been worked out the challenge would be done & all players using external tools would know how it worked too. I've never really farmed mats, I just pick up what I find and if I can't find something where I am I look elsewhere until I do. I spend days on small moons looking for fumeroles, more often than not forcing myself to give up. I once popped over to the star to refuel my 'vette so I could stay longer, usually an empty tank would be the sign to move on.

You can still research & catalogue rocks just as I can still hunt by eye for fumeroles, there just isn't the motivation because you can just equip a module to tell you the thing. I don't mind this, it is too easy now but before it was arguably too hard (as you might feel about surface deposits).

With the removal of the old modules I cannot do what I did, and I must use the new stuff. I haven't quit, and this is a minor point that should have been quickly addressed (or franky, never have come up in the first place). It just needs to be put right and not happen again just as it (afaik) has not happened before.

 

[Turranius]

Hello Commanders,
...

Personally, this is when I stopped playing. Not because I felt it so bad that I had no choice, but I play 100% in VR and it really takes me out of the game world in how its implemented. I'd rather have seen it as a screen in front of me (such as the trading screen when docked) then totally take me out of the game.

I look at my Oculus now and then and dream of it. Well, not really, but Elite was the only game I played with the Oculus so its getting dusty now.

(I've not read any other posts in this thread. Only came here to comment because of Mr ants video)

 

[Riverside]

That's a very common scheme here. Maybe that's why I still struggle to get this strange aversion against the FSS: I'm still one of the view who still play on a monitor - and not going to change that anytime soon. I have no idea how the FSS screen feels in VR. But then I already struggle why most players seem to must have VR at all costs. Meanwhile I suspect it's a highway to burn out on the game and some sort of technical heroin, malicious addiction included.

I play on a 24", 144hz monitor picommander. It's just down to personal preference & all that's needed is a choice. It isn't complicated.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I play on a 24", 144hz monitor picommander. It's just down to personal preference & all that's needed is a choice. It isn't complicated.

Indeed.
I'm fully old-school - monitor, keyboard and mouse - and I still don't like the 'out-of-cockpit' feeling of the FSS. It would be less intrusive if I could use the FSS at speed - since I'm usually just looking at the spectrum.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

While we're being all helpful to each other, does anyone who isn't using the mouse to control the FSS 'headlook' find that if you move in circles the FSS orientation rotates (at a slower rate)?

 

[Riverside]

Indeed.
I'm fully old-school - monitor, keyboard and mouse - and I still don't like the 'out-of-cockpit' feeling of the FSS. It would be less intrusive if I could use the FSS at speed - since I'm usually just looking at the spectrum.

I think having the FSS scanner as an optional overlay (leaving the separate screen to be used while parked and as a HUD element at speed & requiring the ship to be pointed at the thing) would have been fine, I'd still want to be able to see the basic sysmap but it would solve a lot of issues.

But it would be much, much easier on dev time to just put the old stuff back in, then the colour-blind, the VR user, the motion sick and the curmudgeons would all have a quick, simple solution that just works.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I'm using a joystick and got this effect just recently and it's new to me (though I've read some reports about it). Must be a bug and I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the issue tracker.

I don't use the issue tracker. I find it detrimental to the experience of the forum as it is now.

 

[Faded Glory]

I play in VR exclusively, and other than a few bugs (which frankly I don't notice), it's not particularly difficult to use the FSS in VR.

Sure, the FSS takes one out of the cockpit, but that was pointed out during the beta. Some people don't like it, others don't mind. As I've said before, I don't like the idea that I am taken out of the cockpit, but then since I don't scan every system that I pass through, and since scanning systems when I do is so fast, I can live with it.

I don't use the FSS at all in the bubble, because there are choices in how I can do things, and when exploring I spend so little time in the FSS screen that I can live with it.

As has been said many times before, it's mainly down to players having a choice of how they do different things in the game, it's not (for me at least) hating the FSS despite what some would like to think, I can use it just fine.

I do think though that in a supposed sandbox type of game, having less choices rather than more in how we can do things is a weakness, not a strength.

 

[Riverside]

Obviously not and your fallacy is to think they're somehow obliged to explain why.

Did you quote the wrong post?

They don't have to explain it, they can just put the stuff back into outfitting. I've been bouncing this off some pretty determined devil's advocates for months now, I'm pretty confident their removal cannot be justified. Whether they are obliged to do some climb-down over what was in November a minor point easily addressed is largely immaterial, really they just need to put the old discovery modules back into outfitting & the problem is solved. Then if they want to spend another year reworking the FSS to suit the colour blind, the VR user and the curmudgeonly they can.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Personally, this is when I stopped playing. Not because I felt it so bad that I had no choice, but I play 100% in VR and it really takes me out of the game world in how its implemented. I'd rather have seen it as a screen in front of me (such as the trading screen when docked) then totally take me out of the game.

I look at my Oculus now and then and dream of it. Well, not really, but Elite was the only game I played with the Oculus so its getting dusty now.

(I've not read any other posts in this thread. Only came here to comment because of Mr ants video)

Oddly, I have the exact opposite feeling in VR. Maybe it’s because I’m a fan of the cyberpunk genre, but I feel like I’m seeing Augmented Reality, as opposed being taken entirely out of the game world. I feel the same about the galaxy map, but not the system map, oddly enough. Haven’t played around with the system orrery enough to see which that feels like.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have the entire game able to play from the cockpit only, but only because I don’t like losing situational awareness like that.

 

[ElectronicPyscho]

The only thing that I have concerns about is the systems are in a certain state. And the materials that spawn, are not corresponding with the ones that are supposed to be there. Outbreak spawns anything but Pharmaceutical Isolators.

 

[lenna]

I think a developer has the right to develop their game as they like. If they want feedback they ask for it.

False - Ultimately any developer does not have complete freedom to develop their product as they like after it has been officially released. There is a notional obligation to maintain support for certain things and the exceptional circumstances that can legitimately justify deviation from this principle are limited in scope. No such "exceptional circumstances" exist in the case of removal of the ADS.