Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[Riverside]

What was an analogue indicator of type - what the unique body looks like in the system map - appears to have been turned into a digital signal on the wave scanner, without enough resolution (for me at least) to be able to know if the system will contain something interesting to me without locating and resolving it.



I generally am interested in moons. Doesn't matter what type of planet it is, I want it to be a potato, or wrinkly, or have a massive crater, or be an odd colour or whatever. The wave scanner simply doesn't tell me that, or possibly I cannot interpret what I want from that data format, which is effectively an icon representing the body type. I know I can from the sysmap, so I feel I must bang through the FSS process as quickly as I can so I can look at the populated system map. For what I want to find out the new stuff just slows me down.

It works, I can & have used it, and my approach has earned me more Credits than I have a use for (not the worst problem I could have ).

I don't mind the DSS, it is a tool & I use it for it's advantages (scanning at a distance). I'd have a use for the ADS too, and I think a lot of people would if they were able to choose.

 

[Wrecked]

Hello Commanders,

I wanted to drop in and let you that we have been reading your comments and are aware how some of you feel about the FSS.

When first designing the FSS, we wanted to ensure that it was engaging for as many different player types as possible, but also understood that it would not be possible to design a system that would work for everyone. Before the FSS was implemented, we also collected feedback from discussions on the forum and the beta.

Today, in its current iteration, we’re happy with how the FSS operates and feel that reinstating the ADS would be detrimental to the experience of exploration as it is now.

At the current time, we won’t be making changes to the core of the FSS. While we understand that this may be disappointing for some of you, we would like to thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and feedback with us.

FINALLY! Could you put some of the other mechanics people whine about to rest while you’re at it? Also address the mechanics that haven’t even been announced yet so we can get the same people to stop whining about those too.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

This is the thing though, it doesn't. People said it would, but it doesn't undermine the FSS. This is my point when I say they didn't need to be removed, there was no incompatibility and we can see this clearly in the game, in systems that have already been tagged by another player but are new to us.

I am making the same point, it isn't baseless. The idea that there was some incompatibility is baseless. You want to relish the gameplay of discovering a system manually? Use the FSS alone & save a module slot - cost & benefit.

You just want to get on with it & have the bodies in a system be discovered but only a basic overview? Fit the Advanced version but is requires an extra slot. You can still fill in the extra detail by using the FSS telescope to find & resolve them if you want, or you can just target the discovered bodies & fly over there instead, or some combination of the two based on preference. Cost & benefit, player has a choice.

I can imagine the Advanced module would be pretty popular, just as the old DSS was despite for most of us only having a gameplay use for revealing the mats on a landable planet and earning extra cash.

Well said. A great summary of how easy it could be, and how it doesn't have to be difficult.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

You’re where I was regarding surface exploration, after Frontier obviated SRV gameplay for surface exploration purposes. No amount of complaining to Frontier, no number of suggestions, was able to get Frontier to reverse their decision, and they never bothered to respond to my complaints. Most people were happy with that change, and this is also the case with the ADS.

Ahh so that explains your attitude to feedback. I know it becomes tough to see people acting frontier naive when you know how it works. Given past and present issues, the only possible thing to do is to back off a bit and just get back into the game. Just like people were in the first 40-60 hours or so. Space was alot simpler then and you had your hands full even perceiving the extent of the bubble. No need for this meta infrastructure crap.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

I note discussion of FSS in VR. I'll just add my 2c that prior to the FSS I played ED mostly in VR. Since departing on the DW2 expedition it's been all on monitor. The FSS in VR is not a pleasant experience for me. YMMV.

One positive. Using monitor only, I've switched over to using the mouse for FSS. It's so much faster to point the "telescope". The joystick was painfully, unbearably slow.

 

[bookmite]

There is a huge difference between exploring and travelling across the galaxy .

I rarely explore these days, I travel, I honk as I go, mainly out of habit more than anything. The only time I use the FSS is when I’m hunting Mats mainly USS’s

Players can still check the galaxy map after honking and then go map a surface “ if they choose “

Personally I can’t see any issues with its functionality, it does what it says on the box .

My thanks to the Dev team on this one

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

While we're being all helpful to each other, does anyone who isn't using the mouse to control the FSS 'headlook' find that if you move in circles the FSS orientation rotates (at a slower rate)?

Another one of those weird ones. If frontier had simply changed the mouse controls to be a heavy version of mouse ship controls... there's a high chance i wouldn't have said a thing. The smack smack smack panning is sub optional.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Players can still check the galaxy map after honking and then go map a surface “ if they choose “

Zombie fact strikes again.

The System map isn't populated by the honk in systems that haven't previously been explored by someone.

At least try to understand the issue before commenting.

 

[bookmite]

Perhaps you are ingesting too much salt Cmdr...it appears to be effecting your brainwaves....if not your brainwaves then certainly your manners,

Zombie fact strikes again.

The System map isn't populated by the honk in systems that haven't previously been explored by someone.

At least try to understand the issue before commenting.

because you’re so superior you could find suitable employment as an ambassador or maybe a newspaper editor

But like I care what you think.

 

[NW3]

...we’re happy with how the FSS operates...

And so am I. The return trip from DWE 2 has been a lot more enjoyable than the trip home from DWE 1. The new exploration features, like the , mapping, Guardian FSD booster, and especially neutron star boosts are a major improvement, imo.

 

[Riverside]

Perhaps you are ingesting too much salt Cmdr...it appears to be effecting your brainwaves....if not your brainwaves then certainly your manners,


because you’re so superior you could find suitable employment as an ambassador or maybe a newspaper editor

But like I care what you think.

The behaviour you describe is in systems where the data has already been sold by another player (ie tagged) or pre-populated systems like Sol where the full details are filled in for everyone.

If you go out far enough you'll come across systems no one has ever visited before, or at least not sold the data yet. In these systems the behaviour changes. Give it a try for yourself to see (you may be fine with it, you may not, opinions vary).

Here's a couple of videos that show what I mean:

This one is a system that I'd never been to before but was already fully explored & tagged by other players

This is a system that no one had yet tagged, a virgin system

I'm guessing you are referring to systems near the bubble that have already been tagged.

 

[Wrecked]

Thanks for the response, but this is the same basic message that was provided before the changes to beta that clearly demonstrate that it is perfectly possible to retain the complete functionality of the ADS.

So what's stopping you? In what specific way is retaining the ADS detrimental? Green gas giants?

Long standing, well respected players have quit over this, nobody would have quit if it had been retained, and nobody is going to quit if you put it back in.

If anyone actually quit playing because of this change, good riddance to them. I wouldn’t want such fragile snowflakes to be a whiny part of my game community.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

If anyone actually quit playing because of this change, good riddance to them. I wouldn’t want such fragile snowflakes to be a whiny part of my game community.

I almost felt bad about being mean to someone in this thread, but now I don't.

 

[Riverside]

I almost felt bad about being mean to someone in this thread, but now I don't.

I'd prefer that it didn't return to that, Wrecked But Whole isn't in favour of adding timesinks to the game any more than you are.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I said realistically.
It seems like you might have no idea about what kinds of numbers we are talking about here. Perhaps others might not know as well. So: 14 GGG-s found so far. That's in 41 million systems discovered on EDSM, plus however many not on it. Probably a total of around 160 million.
Now you'd have to scan each and every gas giant you come across to find one, with likely having to wait out the entire image to resolve (unless you're in a galactic region where no GGG has been discovered yet), whereas before you could look at the system map and see it.
If at least they gave some unique signature on the FSS bar, that would be good. After all, if we'll ever get gas giant atmospheric flights, these will likely be The ones to go to.

With just a glance if the spectrum, you will know if there are gas giants in a system. Then it doesn't take long to scan them. Fractionally longer then before. It was realistic.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

By the powers vested in me, and in the unspoken names of That Which Must Not Be Said, I consign this thread to a long overdue death.

The Powers That Be have spoken. The FSS is here to stay. There is no current development being done to alter it in the near future. 2020 will not bring us an Ultimate System Scanner. Perhaps in 2026 it will be revisited for some updating, but I wouldn't count on that either.

Debating and arguing about what we like and don't like is simply not productive. Let's sing a song:

The Wheels in the mud go round and round,
Round and Round,
Round and Round.
The Wheels in the mud go round and round.
Fighting it won't get us anywhere.

The speed freaks and masochists are not going to be appeased, not any time soon at least, if ever.
Meanwhile, there are dozens of other items that could use at least half this much attention elsewhere in the game. Let's talk about some of those a while, ok?

 

[askavir]

Meanwhile, there are dozens of other items that could use at least half this much attention elsewhere in the game. Let's talk about some of those a while, ok?

Last time I checked, nobody was stopping you.

 

[Sylow]

Personally, this is when I stopped playing. Not because I felt it so bad that I had no choice, but I play 100% in VR and it really takes me out of the game world in how its implemented. I'd rather have seen it as a screen in front of me (such as the trading screen when docked) then totally take me out of the game.

I look at my Oculus now and then and dream of it. Well, not really, but Elite was the only game I played with the Oculus so its getting dusty now.

This i a more interesting aspect. At least in my eyes much more valid than many other concerns. But i am curious, as i don't play in VR: is there a difference between the FSS, the system map and the galaxy map in this aspect?

For a non-VR player like me, they all are just like "now you look at a different screen to do job XY".

While we're being all helpful to each other, does anyone who isn't using the mouse to control the FSS 'headlook' find that if you move in circles the FSS orientation rotates (at a slower rate)?

I had that feeling for quite a while. I sometimes still get to this result, but i have reduced it a lot since i started flying on "top" of a star before scanning. (Means, Zenith and Nadir point. ) I can stop there close enough for the fuel scoop to still work, while having a view to almost any body in the system by doing a 360° sweep. The only ones i don't quickly see that way are real oddities on strongly angled orbits. Which btw. was something the old system didn't show as quickly. Honk just filled the navigation list. No orbits there, only distances. The system map didn't show the angle of orbits, either. You had to specifically look for such things. Now i detect them on the fly. Not that the game rewards such things, but as people keep going on what' harder to find, this is something which now is easier to find.

As long as i do the 360° sweep, i notice minimal camera rotation. As i always look a bit "down" in the coordinate system while turning the camera, some rotation is to be expected. It's simply how geometry works. (The camera moves left and right from the current position. As i look down, i have to apply a tiny bit of up movement to keep following the objects on orbital plane. This up movement, distributed all around the 360° rotation, is what results in a perceived rotation around the viewing axis. )

When looking further up and down and then sweeping around, the rotation of course increases. It sometimes feels too much for me. But i can't tell if that's just me, or of the game might run into some coordinate conversion issues there (read: rounding errors), which result in stronger rotation than there should be.

Either of that is possible. There might be an actual problem, but to be sure somebody would have to spend plenty of time and maths. And in the end it quite likely boils down to my gut feeling being wrong. No idea if that helps.

And on what others have said: yes, better joystick controls would be very much welcome. Higher speed, snap to target, etc. There's plenty of room for improvement on the FSS. I hope that it'll be done at some time. (Means, I hope that FD can see the actual improvement suggestions within the sea of postings here. )

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Perhaps you are ingesting too much salt Cmdr...it appears to be effecting your brainwaves....if not your brainwaves then certainly your manners,



because you’re so superior you could find suitable employment as an ambassador or maybe a newspaper editor

But like I care what you think.

And this is why we can't have nice things.
You made a statement that was factually wrong and someone set you straight.

At least have the courtesy to try and find out how the FSS works in unexplored space compared to explored space and then come back with an informed comment.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Well it's all part of exploring, what you are describing is what I call black-boxing - you are inferring the inner workings of a device from observations. I understand how you feel about the challenge being removed, I felt a similar way about using 20,000ly route plotter and a high jump range ship to return to Beagle Point (and beyond) being trivially easy (plotted a straight line across the abyss) compared to spending three months picking my way assisted jump by assisted jump, creeping out the end of the Carina arm to eventually reach Beagle Point in my Corvette without using external help (ie googling a route), only the in-game tools.

I don't know whether you could still infer the mat ratios on a planet but it seems to me the game telling you (in an optional way) isn't removing functionality, you just enjoyed the challenge and the game was made easier as has happened so many times. Power Creep. Once it had been worked out the challenge would be done & all players using external tools would know how it worked too. I've never really farmed mats, I just pick up what I find and if I can't find something where I am I look elsewhere until I do. I spend days on small moons looking for fumeroles, more often than not forcing myself to give up. I once popped over to the star to refuel my 'vette so I could stay longer, usually an empty tank would be the sign to move on.

You can still research & catalogue rocks just as I can still hunt by eye for fumeroles, there just isn't the motivation because you can just equip a module to tell you the thing. I don't mind this, it is too easy now but before it was arguably too hard (as you might feel about surface deposits).

I get what you're saying, but my main objection to Frontier obviating the SRV's role in exploration was that before Frontier expanded the functionality of the DSS to detect material distributions, if you wanted to learn nearly everything you could know about a world, you actually had to land on it. Afterwards, you didn't even need to get close to that world to learn nearly everything you could know about it. Yes, there remained geological POIs to find, but that was kind of like trying to explore via parallax even with a basic discovery scanner: you could spend hours trying to find something that may not even be there to begin with.

Feelings are funny things. During the Horizons Beta and before the DSS change, I spent about three or four months exploring, almost entirely on the surface of worlds, cataloging what I found there. The ennui I'd felt trying to explore previously was gone. After the DSS change, it came back stronger than ever. I'd still zip along the surface of worlds in my SRV from time to time, but it was less about exploring, and more about me keeping an eye on the ground level scanner as I approached surface ports while carrying completely legal commodities to upstanding citizens of the Federation without getting scanned in the process, and investigating any POIs I saw while doing so, then checking for meteorites while I happened to be down there. But that was not exploration gameplay. That was engineering gameplay.

With the FSS, I'm back to taking completely unnecessary surface samples from many of worlds I've visited so far, easily spending an entire game session on a single interesting system. But this is not exploration gameplay. This is just me messing around. The SRV is not an exploration tool, it's a toy you bring along just for the fish, similar to the fighters some people bring so you they can go fast and low through canyons without risking their motherships. It's fun, it adds variety to my game session, it gives me materials with which to engineer when I get back, but it is not exploration gameplay.

With the removal of the old modules I cannot do what I did, and I must use the new stuff. I haven't quit, and this is a minor point that should have been quickly addressed (or franky, never have come up in the first place). It just needs to be put right and not happen again just as it (afaik) has not happened before.

Which I guess is where we fundamentally disagree. As far as I'm concerned, Frontier excised something that should be a fundamental aspect of exploration gameplay, and replaced it not with something that performs the same role, but replaced it with nothing. Their justification for this change was that people didn't want to explore in order to engineer. On the flip side, Frontier excised something that automatically did something that should be a fundamental aspect of exploration gameplay, and replaced it with actual gameplay. Their justification for this change was that "reinstating the ADS would be detrimental to the experience of exploration as it is now."

There is nothing to fix in Frontier's eyes. They removed something that shouldn't have been there in the first place, and I for one am glad they did. While I'm of the opinion that restoring something ADS like wouldn't have a detrimental effect on me, given that I'm exploring without playing the "minigame" in the first place, I would much rather Frontier add in something that can provide navigation data in a system that has actual game play attached to its use, as opposed to holding down a button for a few seconds... ideally something that consumes ammunition that would not only result in interesting decisions, but also might add in other aspects of exploration gameplay that I consider essential, but are all but missing from this game: logistical considerations and living off the land.

I personally favor launching a probe that provides navigation data for everything within a certain radius of its flight path, that can be launched at bodies, or simply fired in whatever direction you happen to be facing. Deploying a navigation beacon would also be an interesting alternative, especially if the player who built it could add points of interest later on. Suggest things that would enhance the exploration experience, as opposed to repeatedly asking for something that Frontier considers detrimental to it.