Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[askavir]

Depth.

For depth, we would need actual things to do (other than the ones we imagine in our heads while playing). Things to actually do, things to investigate, things to interact with, etc. This was exploration biggest issue since launch, and the "exploration update" has completely failed to address this in the slightest. There's not, after all this time, a single gameplay reason at all to land on a planet from an exploration gameplay perspective. Even the things to "discover" are miniscule in variety (here's something where a nice amount of procedural generation would actually be a good thing).

In fact, I even doubt FD ackowledges the near complete lack of exploration gameplay and content as a "thing", and they all believe that explorers are playing the game for credits or rank. Either that or they just wished explorers parked their asps and went off to shoot random ships at a RES, it would surely make their jobs a lot easier, they could keep the lowest common denominator gameplay and periodically add new projectiles with slightly different stats and call it an "update".

 

[Riverside]

Slot bloat and the removal of the ADS are two separate issues. Constantly adding new slots reduces the complexity of the game by making it ever easier to have a single ship which does everything - which obviously is popular with a portion of the playerbase. Having to actually think about outfitting a ship based on what you want to do with it adds a layer of complexity to the game.

This is also why I'm opposed to Fleet Carriers being able to carry multiple ships (per commander). Being able to take everything you want everywhere you go defeats the purpose of having multiple ships in the first place.

YMMV

It does. Having the FSS built in and removing the old modules didn't take the game in the direction of increasing agency though, and the idea of having a module that provides a small competitive advantage in a largely noncompetitive part of the game have such a large downside of being required to occupy several slots seems like more like trolling than an actual solution anyone might consider balanced.

Perhaps Jukelo could expand on their reasoning?

 

[Enderby]

I just think the blob hunting is really, like, really, bad.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

For depth, we would need actual things to do (other than the ones we imagine in our heads while playing). Things to actually do, things to investigate, things to interact wit, etc. This was exploration biggest issue since launch, and the "exploration update" has completely failed to address this in the slightest. There's not even, after all this time, a single gameplay reason at all to land on a planet from an exploration gameplay perspective. Even the things to "discover" are miniscule in variety (here's something that a nice amount of procedural generation would actually be a good thing).

In fact, I even doubt FD ackowledges the near complete lack of exploration gameplay and content as a "thing", and they all believe that explorers are playing the game for credits. Either that or they just wished explorars parked their asps and went off to shoot random ships at a RES, it would surely make their jobs a lot easier, they could keep the lowest common denominator gameplay and periodically add new projectiles with slightly different stats and call it an "update".

Whilst I agree that we need more things to actually do, I'd say that by making ships capable of doing everything FDev are exacerbating the problem. As it stands now biological and geological sites are essentially interchangeable, which reduces the sense of 'doing something' with them. If you had to fit out a ship specifically to investigate biological sites at the cost of being able to investigate geological ones, there'd at least be a decision to be made in the outfitting screen. By itself, it wouldn't solve the problem, but it would slightly improve the situation.

The FSS, DSS and Codex make it very clear that FDev have no real idea about what explorers do - and more importantly, the RANGE of ways that they do it.

 

[Spacemanz]

Here's a challenge. Find someone inside frontier, familiar with the fss, that goes home and plays elite in anticipation of using the fss to go exploring or find signal sources. Get them to come on stream, and use it over an extended period, sharing insights about what they're enjoying about the experience, and critically what they're thinking thoughout its use. Ever since its launch, i can't do it, and i've tried seriously... i'm very fond of elite, and all i've ever wanted to do was make it work.

I just watched Paiges live stream, and for the first time in history saw someone at frontier use the fss is a non dismissive way. How she used it was closer to how i try to use it, as when trying the way Will demonstrates I almost quit the game. But im genuinely lost on how that experience can be used enjoyably for longer exploration trips.

Just in case, avoiding another type of gameplay does not count as enjoyment to me. That's fools gold there.

Please help, and thankyou. A demonstration of 2-3 systems in sequence is all i need help with.

The devs don't play their own game. The FSS is basically a whack-a-mole mini-game... snore...

 

[zimms]

That's a dangerous road to go down though. I assume the plethora of different limpet controllers already keeps players from trying out all those new activities because they can't be bothered to specifically outfit a ship for every single button press, hyperbolically speaking.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Chapter 4: Beyond - :

'EXPLORATION​

The Analysis Mode with the improved Exploration Discovery Scanner and Detailed Discovery Scanner, is a new way for all Commanders to explore the Milky Way galaxy. Commanders have probes at their disposal to map the planetary surfaces, and planetary rings, in detail, to locate points of interest and leave your mark on the galaxy in a different way.' - https://www.elitedangerous.com/seasons/beyond/​

Frontier apparently consulted the Elite 'community' on the changes that came in the so called 'Beyond' series of updates. The reality is, I suspect, that Frontier had pre-conceived ideas about what it was going to implement, and simply ran a public relations exercise to give the appearance of listening to feedback - perhaps making minor token changes that didn't disrupt their overall plans for the 'Beyond' updates.

I'd hoped that exploration would be improved with the Beyond updates - and, to a limited degree, I suppose it has been (a few more things to discover). However, the stripping away of modules dedicated to exploration is simply unacceptable.

Exploration is actually one of the areas that an Elite rank can be obtained. Being an explorer is supposed to be a path that a Commander can choose - effectively, by designing a ship around exploration. What Frontier has done with the exploration update is to foist the tools for exploration on everyone (ship integration), and taken away the few modules that were available to genuine Commanders who chose the path of explorer.

Actually, there are a few ships that have 'explorer' in the name - rendered almost irrelevant due to the fact that every ship now has the necessary scanners integrated into all ships (and endless probes). Meanwhile, other pathways have lots of dedicated modules - bounty hunting, mining, pirating, trading. Choose the explorer pathway and you can buy a ship with 'explorer' in the title (or get an Anaconda that out-jumps all the 'dedicated' exploration vessels when fully engineered...), but only have pretty much the one module dedicated to exploration to choose from (all other exploration scanners now being integrated).

The first thing that needs to happen is for Frontier to remove all exploration related scanners from being integrated into ships. Frontier's introduction to 'exploration' (see above) suggests that there are at least two scanners - 'Exploration Discovery Scanner' (not sure what this refers to - FSS?) and 'Detailed Discovery Scanner' (integrated). The only module that is optional is the 'Detailed Surface Scanner' (honestly, after integration everything else, what's the point?).

Next, is to reintroduce basic and advanced forms of scanner - providing different levels of information (the basic possibly requiring a smaller module slot, the more advance requiring a bigger module slot).

Probes features need to be improved, too (btw, I don't think an explorer should have unlimited probes available - these should require fabrication, costing a small amount). Launching probes to map a planet can quickly become boring, and its main purpose (particularly when mapping planets with no atmosphere) is to get more credits. Having something that then links all of the various scanners and probes together would also be nice to see (fleshing out exploration of systems).

On the actual operation of the FSS, I'm sure it could be improved - made more interesting - but I have no suggestions as to how.

Anyway, from the point of view of choosing the pathway of being an explorer, some of these changes were (in my view) poor. I want more modules, and more things to do with the modules (as well as exploration), not less.

Otherwise, Frontier may as well integrate the Kill Warrant Scanner and the Frameshift Wake Scanner (bounty hunting), Pulse Wave Analyser (mining), Manifest Scanner (pirating) - not to mention various other modules, weapons, etc., relevant to these different playing pathways.

I also find it odd that so many people have scanned/explored various systems, but that data is not available to buy in the Galactic Map. And players can seemingly jump around well trodden systems - honk - and sell the data over 20ly away(despite the fact nothing new has been discovered).

Nothing to argue with there.

I'd just like to add that while NOT exploring around the Bubble the proximity auto-resolve feature means that you are still obtaining cartographic data simply by flying from station to station (or CZ or Res or whatever). Exploration should categorically NOT be something you can do accidentally.

 

[biot]

...

Frontier apparently consulted the Elite 'community' on the changes that came in the so called 'Beyond' series of updates. The reality is, I suspect, that Frontier had pre-conceived ideas about what it was going to implement, and simply ran a public relations exercise to give the appearance of listening to feedback - perhaps making minor token changes that didn't disrupt their overall plans for the 'Beyond' updates.

...

Respectfully disagree with your characterization above. If you look at the following thread as an example:

What gameplay elements are needed to make exploration as fun and engaging as combat?

I'd like a discussion on what people want to see brought in to make exploration as deep and engaging as combat currently is in elite. To recap, combat can be either a 1v1, wing v wing or faction v faction, or variations of the above, and at a range of skill levels. Combat also typically occurs...

forums.frontier.co.uk

You will see suggestions in that thread that wholly or partly have come into the game. I know there were other discussions along the same lines but it is a pig to search for threads that predate the switch to the new forum format.

 

[biot]

Thanks for that. However, when/until they change the FSS, remove integration of the various scanners, and increase the modules available for exploration (as a start), I'll look again at what I've stated (consider changing my point of view).

That's fair enough. My own opinion is that the FSS + DSS changes are a step in the right direction. And I respect/understand others feel that it is the exact opposite. I still think there is plenty of room for improvement though.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

For depth, we would need actual things to do (other than the ones we imagine in our heads while playing). Things to actually do, things to investigate, things to interact wit, etc. This was exploration biggest issue since launch, and the "exploration update" has completely failed to address this in the slightest. There's not even, after all this time, a single gameplay reason at all to land on a planet from an exploration gameplay perspective. Even the things to "discover" are miniscule in variety (here's something that a nice amount of procedural generation would actually be a good thing).

It would have been better if we could have gotten soil samples, bio samples and other things. Maybe FDev are waiting until they release the space legs expansion until they add something like that.

In fact, I even doubt FD ackowledges the near complete lack of exploration gameplay and content as a "thing", and they all believe that explorers are playing the game for credits. Either that or they just wished explorars parked their asps and went off to shoot random ships at a RES, it would surely make their jobs a lot easier, they could keep the lowest common denominator gameplay and periodically add new projectiles with slightly different stats and call it an "update".

There are plenty of things out there to find. I have only found a small handful after 8 months. But there does need to be more stuff added with more interations, but as I stated above, maybe they are waiting on the space legs expansion (if it exists that is) to come out. There is only so much interecting you can do when stuck in your ship.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Respectfully disagree with your characterization above. If you look at the following thread as an example:

What gameplay elements are needed to make exploration as fun and engaging as combat?

I'd like a discussion on what people want to see brought in to make exploration as deep and engaging as combat currently is in elite. To recap, combat can be either a 1v1, wing v wing or faction v faction, or variations of the above, and at a range of skill levels. Combat also typically occurs...

forums.frontier.co.uk

You will see suggestions in that thread that wholly or partly have come into the game. I know there were other discussions along the same lines but it is a pig to search for threads that predate the switch to the new forum format.

We got the minigames that were requested, but none of the 'science' stuff. There was also a complete lack of people saying "Make it easier to get Elite Exploration without leaving the Bubble".

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Nothing to argue with there.

I'd just like to add that while NOT exploring around the Bubble the proximity auto-resolve feature means that you are still obtaining cartographic data simply by flying from station to station (or CZ or Res or whatever). Exploration should categorically NOT be something you can do accidentally.

I don't know. Accidently stumbling on something can be really good too. I am in two minds regarding the auto-resolve. Maybe the auto-resolve should only give basic information like the old ADS gave instead of the full information.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I don't know. Accidently stumbling on something can be really good too. I am in two minds regarding the auto-resolve. Maybe the auto-resolve should only give basic information like the old ADS gave instead of the full information.

I think the auto-resolve would be fine as it is (it's invaluable for parallax exploration), IF it required you to actually fit a module. It's being present in all ships that causes the problem.

 

[askavir]

It would have been better if we could have gotten soil samples, bio samples and other things.

Indeed. Same for collecting materials, I would have preferred some kind of "surface scanner" to locate areas rich in minerals, and then use some kind of SRV soil driller for collection, instead of shooting chunks and driving over them. This of course for minerals, manufactured materials should stay as they are.

I would also have added "first landed on" tags instead of "first mapped". Everybody knows Neil Armstrong, but few know the first guy who mapped the moon.

 

[biot]

We got the minigames that were requested, but none of the 'science' stuff. There was also a complete lack of people saying "Make it easier to get Elite Exploration without leaving the Bubble".

Agree. Regardless of what exploration tools are in place I think there is plenty of scope for improving gameplay in terms of what can be found and how you can interact with it when you find it.

 

[marx]

Frontier apparently consulted the Elite 'community' on the changes that came in the so called 'Beyond' series of updates. The reality is, I suspect, that Frontier had pre-conceived ideas about what it was going to implement, and simply ran a public relations exercise to give the appearance of listening to feedback - perhaps making minor token changes that didn't disrupt their overall plans for the 'Beyond' updates.

That was exactly it for the exploration update. As a recap: first they promised an entire focused feedback section for exploration. Then they postponed that indefinitely, and ended up making a single thread several months later instead. There was plenty of feedback there, none of which made it into the beta. Then the FSS was demoed later on a livestream, again to plenty of feedback on how it could be made better. The only thing they changed? Originally, they planned for the honk not to give any credits, but after "listening to the feedback", they decided to keep that in. (And even give more credits for just honking than before.)

The thing is though that Frontier often only releases the details when it's too late in their development cycle to do anything except minor modifications. This is generally true all the time, but was even more so for the exploration update, seeing that it was likely delayed and then later rushed.

But yeah, when they ask for feedback, it's mostly for just PR purposes.


There's also the problem that for the Big Exploration Update, most people expected a lot of new content, and some new game mechanics to interact with them. We barely got anything of those, and the headlining feature, which plenty didn't expect, was that they replaced existing gameplay for finding existing stuff. (Ironically enough, if you are looking for the new content, NSPs, then using the FSS for that is actually worse than just looking at the contacts tab.)

Another big part of where exploration could use lots of improvement is how it interacts with the rest of the game... or well, how it doesn't. No matter what you find, the only impact it has on the game world is the BGS boost on the minor faction you sell the data to. There could certainly be more room for improvement there.
Ironically enough, Frontier saw fit to add a CG to build a xeno-research station for all the new spaceborne life from NSPs, so they would have done at least one step towards more gameplay... only they didn't say a word about this since, and it was, what, half a year ago?

So yeah, after the exploration update, we're left with wishes and promises, with any substantial improvements or additions being most likely at earliest at the late 2020 expansion.

 

[zimms]

[...] The only thing they changed? Originally, they planned for the honk not to give any credits, but after "listening to the feedback", they decided to keep that in. (And even give more credits for just honking than before.)
[...]

They also changed probes.

Frontier: You will be ably to synthesize these and your ship will be able to carry a lot of them, a couple hundred probably, but not set in stone yet.
Community: Please don't make the synthesis require manufactured materials!
Frontier: Good news everybody! Probes are now unlimited!

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

They also changed probes.

Frontier: You will be ably to synthesize these and your ship will be able to carry a lot of them, a couple hundred probably, but not set in stone yet.
Community: Please don't make the synthesis require manufactured materials!
Frontier: Good news everybody! Probes are now unlimited!

Thereby turning the probes minigame into a pointless timesink.
Of all the feedback to listen to, they listened to this?

 

[marx]

They also changed probes.

Frontier: You will be ably to synthesize these and your ship will be able to carry a lot of them, a couple hundred probably, but not set in stone yet.
Community: Please don't make the synthesis require manufactured materials!
Frontier: Good news everybody! Probes are now unlimited!

Oh yeah, that's true. I guess I was wrong, and there was one thing that they changed based on feedback. (Two for the honk giving credits, but personally, I don't recall anyone asking for that back.)
To be fair, now that we know how many more credits and tags the probes generate, having to synthesize them would be nothing but an annoying chore - especially if we would have to return to inhabited space for the materials.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Let's all do the FSS Hokey Cokey - so compelling!!