CRITICAL explorer bug

[Allitnil]

I am not saying that FD should not keep a record of who visited what and when. They probably should and it should be available for players to read (i.e., the "history books"). I'm just saying the tags (seen via the system scan) should go. If the game devs want to encourage the sense of immersion and sense of discovery that exploration has to offer, then they should be removed because it's discouraging to new people, or so I imagine, to start exploring only to quickly learn that your visiting of a system is nothing new (and given the number of reps I have received for my comments on this topic, others seem to agree). Yes, there are 400 billion systems blah blah blah. But it is those relatively few systems a few hundred LYs around Known Space that actually matter as they are the systems that new players will be exploring first and the "400 billion systems" argument applies much less to them and only becomes more relevant the farther out you go. And the problem only gets worse with time. Just because something is currently in-game does not mean it has to stay in-game.

That's actually pretty much my own thoughts. There was a recent thread about finding undiscovered black holes and people were saying how most of them will have been found up to 1 or 2 thousand LY away. I'm more pessimistic and reckon that the vast majority with 5000 LY have already been tagged. On my current trip it took me about 10,000 LY before I was finding interesting systems (ie less common stars) that hadn't already been discovered - and it's not even as though I were heading towards anywhere special. And the next person who comes this way after I've handed in my data will find it that bit worse.

It's hard not to become jaded, but I still remember my first trip out of the bubble. I only got as far as the Coal Sack but it felt exciting. Dangerous. And there was a sudden urge to head back to safety. I then followed that up with what was going to be a trip to the Orion / Barnard's Loop complex but ended up as a tour of all the main nebulae to the 'south' of Sol. That was a real achievement. Those two trips were before the first discovered tags were implemented and whilst I knew that at least some of the systems would have been visited before, there was none of the "look, you're not the first and dozens have been here before you" being thrown in my face. I took a look after the tags were introduced and whilst I did get a few in the nebulae, most of those systems had been discovered before I got there. And by now they *all* have. Every single one. If I were starting again those trips wouldn't seem anything like so magical and I feel sorry for the newer players who won't get to experience what I did.

 

[Zulu Romeo]

I am not saying that FD should not keep a record of who visited what and when. They probably should and it should be available for players to read (i.e., the "history books"). I'm just saying the tags (seen via the system scan) should go. If the game devs want to encourage the sense of immersion and sense of discovery that exploration has to offer, then they should be removed because it's discouraging to new people, or so I imagine, to start exploring only to quickly learn that your visiting of a system is nothing new (and given the number of reps I have received for my comments on this topic, others seem to agree). Yes, there are 400 billion systems blah blah blah. But it is those relatively few systems a few hundred LYs around Known Space that actually matter as they are the systems that new players will be exploring first and the "400 billion systems" argument applies much less to them and only becomes more relevant the farther out you go. And the problem only gets worse with time. Just because something is currently in-game does not mean it has to stay in-game.

A while ago in another thread, I suggested three moderate changes to improve and encourage more exploration, one of which was not so much getting rid of discovery tags as simply having the option to hide them. That way, navigators can still use them to find their way, tourists can follow historical routes, and bidding explorers need not be put off by hitting worn tracks while out in the black.

I crystallised that post in this suggestion forum thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157502

 

[Flector]

The fact that a most of the nearby star systems show that they are already discovered can also be seen as a motivation for new players to work towards their first discovery. Once they achieve it, it will feel like an achievement (if you don't feel that it is an achievement, you will most likely not be bothered by the tags in any case).

Sure it is more difficult for newer players, but so are many other things. PVP against experienced players with high-end ships? Competing in community goals versus players in huge trading or combat vessels? Same goes for getting first discovered tags.

Now I would not be opposed to making the first discovered by tags slightly less intrusive in the system map, but completely removing or hiding them I really don't like.

 

[bitstorm]

You know, "last visited by" sounds like a great idea now. As long as the discovery data is also preserved somewhere, of course.

But how would your astro-computer know. *confused*

 

[dannywhac]

Keep the FD tags.

The reason I first started exploring months ago (if I'm being honest) was to get my name written into the successor to a game that I played and loved as a teenager back in 84/85. To be able to see that I'm now part of it, in my mind, is frikkin ace.

Although the FD tags may dissuade a few people to explore, I'm sure for a lot of people the pull to try and get yourself out there and find something first is more prevalent. After I'd got back from my first journey (and not got put off by FD tags around Sol), and making notes on the systems that hadn't been tagged, I looked up all my FDs and it made the journey a bit more 'complete'. It also spurred me on to buy a better ship, set myself further out targets, see some amazing systems, see if I could cross barren areas of stars and so on. To get the details of that Earth-Like in binary with a Water-World back first, or that crackers sequence of TFC and Water World moons orbiting an L Class around a NS back to base.

This led to me getting an even better ship, kitting it out properly and going beyond the galactic center to see what was up north of Sag A*.

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 1000Ly of Sol. Half an hour out of base in an Asp, 45 minutes in a Hauler or an hour or so even in a Sidey (give or take). It's not finding untouched systems that's hard - it's working out if you actually like exploring or not in it's current somewhat 'lite' state.

I've gone right off topic - apologies.

 

[b0rg9]

..then they should be removed because it's discouraging to new people...

*raises hand* new people here!

Personally I find them the opposite of discouraging. On my first long trip out I was actually surprised at how soon I started running into untagged stars (and even sooner w/ untagged planets).

As far as tossing them, I really don't have much of a dog in that fight. If they went away it wouldn't stop me from exploring. With them it's one more aspect of deep-space exploring I enjoy.

 

[Zelos1983]

It basically rewards people who had the opportunity to play this game earlier than others. So backers. I've already written about that special snowflake mentality in another thread so will restrain myself now.

Get rid of it I say. FD, now is your chance.

That's almost the ONLY feature where not playing alone makes a bit of sense. The one redeeming quality for online play.
In every other instance, the other players have at best a negative impact on your gameplay.

 

[bitstorm]

I wonder how that got messed up in the first place. Broken DB schema?
Every body can have only one "first" explorer, thus it has a unique constraint on it.

If the program code makes a mess and tries to insert a new row containing an explored body, it will get an exception by the DBMS. Thus one must deliberately have an UPDATE instead of an INSERT statement in the source code (breaking the business logic!) - and such a thing is overlooked in an audit?

Hack used for testing not corrected before putting live?

So a developer is adding a "last visited" field and the backend mechanism to populate this, of course there's no display code for this yes so they make their code write to the first visited field for now, just to check the mechanism works.

And before it goes live you forget to change it back from first to last visited?

 

[Allitnil]

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 1000Ly of Sol. Half an hour out of base in an Asp, 45 minutes in a Hauler or an hour or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

I'm deliberately playing Devil's Advocate here, but how would you feel if your statement became:

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 2000Ly of Sol. An hour out of base in an Asp, 90 minutes in a Hauler or two hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 4000Ly of Sol. Two hours out of base in an Asp, three hours in a Hauler or four hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 8000Ly of Sol. Four hours out of base in an Asp, six hours in a Hauler or an eight hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

At differing points in time, all of those statements will become true.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

I'm deliberately playing Devil's Advocate here, but how would you feel if your statement became:
At differing points in time, all of those statements will become true.

Snipped and while I agree I still think we have a long long way to go before that. I mean even with the organised mapping efforts we've still only discovered about 0.005% of the galaxy so far.
Even with exponential growth assuming an ever increasing playerbase it'd be about 30 years + to map it fully.

Take away the exponential growth and make it linear and it'd be closer to 200+ years to fully map. Especially with many players following the same routes to Saggitarius A and so on.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Definitely keep the First Discovered By tags. There are 400 Billion stars in this galaxy, more than enough to go around. Exploration so far has barely scratched the surface of the scratched surface of the scratch of the microscopic scratch.

 

[GJ51]

It also doesn't make sense in the context of turning in data. One has to imagine that the factions don't share data at all. But what happens if you and I both "discover" the same system and turn in our data to the same faction? Why do we both get paid? And if I turn my data in to a different faction? Then what does the "first discovered by" even mean? For it to have meaning then different factions must be sharing data.

Not to mention it is a disincentive to new and future explorers.

It basically rewards people who had the opportunity to play this game earlier than others. So backers. I've already written about that special snowflake mentality in another thread so will restrain myself now.

Get rid of it I say. FD, now is your chance.

Great idea!

In that FD has reversed themselves, broken promises, changed features, and basically destroyed the integrity of the game and their own credibility, why not stick it to those who paid extra and signed up early. It would certainly be consistent with past practices... oh, but, then , that would be consistent... maybe they would have to give that a lot of thought.

Can't wait till it's your turn.

 

[b0rg9]

The reason I first started exploring months ago (if I'm being honest) was to get my name written into the successor to a game that I played and loved as a teenager back in 84/85. To be able to see that I'm now part of it, in my mind, is frikkin ace.

OT, but "frikkin ace!" -- yeah you sound like a teen of the '80's (same here). <--Wayfarers

 

[dannywhac]

I'm deliberately playing Devil's Advocate here, but how would you feel if your statement became:

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 2000Ly of Sol. An hour out of base in an Asp, 90 minutes in a Hauler or two hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 4000Ly of Sol. Two hours out of base in an Asp, three hours in a Hauler or four hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 8000Ly of Sol. Four hours out of base in an Asp, six hours in a Hauler or an eight hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

At differing points in time, all of those statements will become true.

Completely see where you're coming from - although I think the first two points will still provide the impetus for new explorers to get further out and sample a bit more of the galaxy. I'm not too sure by the time people will need to travel 8000Lys to tag a body with an FD that there'll be all that many people left playing - that'd be everything tagged within a 16000Ly plain, 4000Ly-ish deep centered around Sol. Lots of systems that.

Again though - can see where you're coming from.

 

[Ripster]

I'm deliberately playing Devil's Advocate here, but how would you feel if your statement became:

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 2000Ly of Sol. An hour out of base in an Asp, 90 minutes in a Hauler or two hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 4000Ly of Sol. Two hours out of base in an Asp, three hours in a Hauler or four hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

or

I can see that FD's would nark a few people off, but to be honest you can get completely untouched systems still within 8000Ly of Sol. Four hours out of base in an Asp, six hours in a Hauler or an eight hours or so even in a Sidey (give or take).

At differing points in time, all of those statements will become true.

Or what does it matter distance wise? That is a goal/marker you have set. That goal/marker is important to you.

Take out distance and ALL your points become irrelivant.

- - - Updated - - -

And rep Allitnil - you are an amazing explorer

 

[Allitnil]

Or what does it matter distance wise? That is a goal/marker you have set. That goal/marker is important to you.

Take out distance and ALL your points become irrelivant.

I guess so, but distance = time. If it takes an hour to achieve something then most people will go for it. If they know it will take several hours then they might think twice. The challenge with a game like this is to make it exciting for both the person starting out when an hour's trip is a real adventure and someone more experienced who views the first hour as just travelling.

And rep Allitnil - you are an amazing explorer

Thanks, but to be honest it's more about time than skill. I effectively retired some years ago, but my wife still works and for the past few months has frequently been working away from home. So I've got a lot of time to kill and exploring is a pleasant way of passing the time. I don't pretend that my "skill" amounts to more than being diligent enough to avoid major mistakes.

 

[drkaii]

OMW to steal all of Princess Luna's firsts (seriously guys, she's had way too much exposure)

Now to hand it in 10 minutes before the next patch

kidding. Seriously, this sucks.

Thankfully 99% of my firsts are beyond 5,000ly

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

.
don't worry never forgotten http://universalcartographics.org/records/largest-supermassive-black-hole/
and here's one for Erimus http://universalcartographics.org/records/largest-class-m-star/
.
back to thread tags still haven't changed on my test system, anyone else tried?

Cheers Patau

By the way, if you want to update that VY Canis Majoris entry the ship type that surveyed it was a Cobra Mk III called the "Shackleton Explorer" (date was 23rd Nov. 3301).

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Forget Sagittarius A*... got bigger issues now.

For six months, I've had all my galactic post redirected to CMDR ELVIS KREMMEN, c/o VWROE EXZOYA DE-X QA-2 ADF-E2 AB 3 2. Now CMDR CEILING CAT IS WATCHING U is going to be opening all my letters!?!? This won't do at all.

 

[Danger Mouse]

This game should load with Fawlty Towers music or something.