External View [A definitive discussion]

[cpbtrading]

In terms of actually piloting the ship, it is Frontier that are driving the first person view.

There has been a recent concession that a third party view may be possible using a drone.

Having not myself seen this said, are you confirming to have seen this as a feature to be added to the game ?

A drone style cam when upgrading, or in station doing other things, would be welcome.

Thanks

 

[NeilF]

Having not myself seen this said, are you confirming to have seen this as a feature to be added to the game ?

A drone style cam when upgrading, or in station doing other things, would be welcome.

Thanks

Nothing is confirmed... Only suggestions so far. See first post.

 

[cpbtrading]

Nothing is confirmed... Only suggestions so far. See first post.

O.k. thanks.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Nothing is confirmed... Only suggestions so far.

I realise it's hearsay when I report it, but I got something more like a prediction from Sandro

 

[CaptainSodom]

Third-person view outside of combat is a good goal, but harder than it seems. For example, by allowing drones when your weapons are retracted, you encourage players to group up and have one person act as an unarmed scout. I actually had a chance to chat with Sandro about this at LaveCon, and as I recall he was leaning towards a mechanism for recording video and playing it back some time later. Perhaps more importantly, he acknowledged how tricky all these problems were but said he'd be surprised if they didn't have something for the release.

Having the ability to record video and play it back later will not enable us to make high quality screenshots, or 4x screenshots at all.

Making up improbable and contrived scenarios with useless tactics (how exactly is this third person view scout helping his wing in a game-breaking manner?) to support the exclusion of a popular feature that is mainstay in simulators and a non-issue in any other game just shows how detached some devs can be from reality.

 

[Hewster]

I really don't understand all this animosity regarding no 3rd person view.

Did they ever say it was planned for ED ? if so, then I understand the anger, if not, then chill out, and go play a game with the views you want

I know the original Elite didn't, and I know they are trying to make ED a modern Elite, and in which case I can't see them adding 3rd person as a playable view (an in cockpit screen showing various external cameras would be cool though).

To finish I feel I must say .... The smell of troll is strong in this thread !

Peace,

Hewster

 

[SAB380]

I really don't understand all this animosity regarding no 3rd person view.

Did they ever say it was planned for ED ? if so, then I understand the anger, if not, then chill out, and go play a game with the views you want

I know the original Elite didn't, and I know they are trying to make ED a modern Elite, and in which case I can't see them adding 3rd person as a playable view (an in cockpit screen showing various external cameras would be cool though).

To finish I feel I must say .... The smell of troll is strong in this thread !

Peace,

Hewster

The smell of troll is definitely strong in your post.

The original Elite didn't have planetary landing, ship purchases, first person, ship interiors, or multiplayer either. How is that an argument?

At this point there have been multiple dev comments that some form of 3rd person (likely via camera drone) so whatever.

Personally I'd like to see it as a tick able option when in hyperdrive and super cruise since these are essentially loading screens that can't possibly affect other peoples gameplay.

 

[Hewster]

The smell of troll is definitely strong in your post.

Please note I did not personally pick out any troll behaviour, however you have decided to directly insinuate that I am (It sort of feels odd, never had that bestowed upon be before!), and I believe you have done that to get a rise out of me... classic troll !! (Irony intended )

The original Elite didn't have planetary landing, ship purchases, first person, ship interiors, or multiplayer either. How is that an argument?

Your arguments however, are valid regarding new features in ED compared to the original, however if we presume (and I'm sure I've heard DB say this in his videos) the style they were, and are now, going for is full immersion (worked for me in 1984), then all the points you make fit with that, and expand on the original idea, 3rd person camera for game play does not IMHO.

Personally I'd like to see it as a tick able option when in hyperdrive and super cruise since these are essentially loading screens that can't possibly affect other peoples gameplay.

Sounds like that could work well, esp. super cruise

I would say in all honesty, I don't really care if there is a 3rd person option, I'll be playing in VR so I guess that gives me (and others using the Rift) an unfair advantage compared to someone in 1st person :S

 

[SAB380]

Please note I did not personally pick out any troll behaviour, however you have decided to directly insinuate that I am (It sort of feels odd, never had that bestowed upon be before!), and I believe you have done that to get a rise out of me... classic troll !! (Irony intended )

Trolling is not about responding to some one else in kind.
Your statement strongly insinuated that many people in this thread were trolling. That is just not the case at all.

I don't think anyone in this thread is trolling to be honest, whether it be passionately for or passionately against. Even those whose views I find utterly absurd, I don't think they are doing that .... (and I'm not referring to your post there....)

Your arguments however, are valid regarding new features in ED compared to the original, however if we presume (and I'm sure I've heard DB say this in his videos) the style they were, and are now, going for is full immersion (worked for me in 1984), then all the points you make fit with that, and expand on the original idea, 3rd person camera for game play does not IMHO.

Immersion is an interesting idea, but I disagree with the theory that 1st person view at all times is critical to experience it. I get very immersed in books, comics, movies and TV shows ...none of them using first person.
To me it would help my immersion to experience things at times like I see them play in other media, especially when I see ship damage caused by my experiences. Frontier obviously understand this concept since every single promo clip they make shows external and 3rd person views.
I'm also a big boy and understand breaks in immersion won't kill me....especially when its fun. Breaks my immersion every time I see another real human player amongst the yellow dots...but in a good way. I think, 'cool, someone else is here'

Sounds like that could work well, esp. super cruise

I would say in all honesty, I don't really care if there is a 3rd person option, I'll be playing in VR so I guess that gives me (and others using the Rift) an unfair advantage compared to someone in 1st person :S

My DK2 should be here soon

 

[Tek]

All of the internal things in my ship take up like 1/3 of my screen real-estate. It would be awesome to be able to take pictures without my speedometer in the way. I know it breaks immersion, but maybe we can be allowed to get a spacesuit on and take a GoPro outside for some panoramic pictures. Or maybe send a camera drone out for some pics. Whatever is easier.

 

[Robert Maynard]

All of the internal things in my ship take up like 1/3 of my screen real-estate. It would be awesome to be able to take pictures without my speedometer in the way. I know it breaks immersion, but maybe we can be allowed to get a spacesuit on and take a GoPro outside for some panoramic pictures. Or maybe send a camera drone out for some pics. Whatever is easier.

A camera fitted to one of the ships hardpoints was proposed earlier in the thread as a solution to getting rid of the HUD (without allowing it to be removed for gameplay - Frontier want us to play with the HUD in place).

The camera could even be fitted to a gimballed mount to make tracking the "target" of the camera work that much easier.

 

[NeilF]

I realise it's hearsay when I report it, but I got something more like a prediction from Sandro

I suspect if the approach is to record and playback later, personally I would rarely use it:-
1) I want to better see the moment... Not revisit it.
2) How do you know if you've caught/seen what you actually want to see? You might go through all the hassle of going through your "historical footage" only to realise, "oh X was in the way," or, "oh, I didn't realise it was pointing in that direction!"

Undoubtedly some people will love it, but I suspect there will be a large group of people who don't want to (ideally) use this approach.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Your arguments however, are valid regarding new features in ED compared to the original, however if we presume (and I'm sure I've heard DB say this in his videos) the style they were, and are now, going for is full immersion (worked for me in 1984), then all the points you make fit with that, and expand on the original idea, 3rd person camera for game play does not IMHO.

Easy solution to avoid immersion breaking: don't use the feature.

Just because a handful of people keep using that as a (non-starter) argument doesn't give them the right to ruin everyone else's fun.

And it is not immersion breaking when we have GoPro cameras and even personal drones in this day and age.

[edited to fix wrongfully pointing finger at Mr Hewster]

 

[Hewster]

@SAB380 ... re:trolling, chill man, its all good, im not a troll, your not a troll, nobodies a troll lol, and I'm and jelly about your dk2 (I got a riftup, its great, but, if i could have afforded dk2 would have ordered.

Easy solution to avoid immersion breaking: don't use the feature.

Just because you and a handful of people keep using that as a (non-starter) argument doesn't give you the right to ruin everyone else's fun.

As I said 4-5 posts back, in the very post you have quoted from; I'm not really bothered if 3rd person is an option, so quoting that is a non-starter too

 

[CaptainSodom]

@SAB380 ... re:trolling, chill man, its all good, im not a troll, your not a troll, nobodies a troll lol, and I'm and jelly about your dk2 (I got a riftup, its great, but, if i could have afforded dk2 would have ordered.



As I said 4-5 posts back, in the very post you have quoted from; I'm not really bothered if 3rd person is an option, so quoting that is a non-starter too

Yeah, you're right, edited my previous post!

 

[Achilles Maelstrom]

Third person, possible solution we might all agree on?

Hi,

I just thought of a sort of blackbox which records your flight. After docking at a station you could then watch a replay from various angles of your last trip. In case you find a blackbox from another player in outer space, you could see what happened [redacted]
What you guys say to this? :smilie:

 

[Robert Maynard]

Hi,

I just thought of a sort of blackbox which records your flight. After docking at a station you could then watch a replay from various angles of your last trip. In case you find a blackbox from another player in outer space, you could see what happened [redacted]
What you guys say to this? :smilie:

I would say that it has already been suggested in this thread, somewhere....

 

[Achilles Maelstrom]

Replay editor
Allow the game to store data while playing (either constantly, or at the press of a button) which within an out-of-game editor can then be used to replay game play, viewing it from different angles, with control over time (eg: slow motion/pause/reverse) etc.

This is what I'm talking about. Only without having to exit the game. Should be accessible whenever you're docked.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

Perceptions: External View vs First Person Only View

Perceptions: External View vs First Person Only View

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding this topic and I want to highlight a few of the issues that I believe are important.

This is my own opinion arrived at through subjective judgement of following the Elite: Dangerous project since about September 2013 (I came on board late compared to many others).

I do think Frontier are all about innovation whereby they are pushing the limit of both technology and perception.

Elite: Dangerous, I believe, is intended to be a truly next generation open sandbox game with a next generation level of immersion. It is this intention which is the root reason why Frontier have chosen a "First Person Only" approach for Elite: Dangerous. They want to create a true "you in your ship" and a true "you in the universe" feel to the game.

David Braben has stated that there has been a lot of focus on the audio for immersive purposes. Rich 5.1 audio whereby players can hear relay switches, engines noises and ship systems in actual 3D locations around their ships all adds to the overall immersion.

The early adoption of Oculus Rift and TrackIR gives us some very clear insight into the overall approach of Frontier. A few months before support for these technologies were implemented into the game, I remember reading vague interest by Frontier who didn't really seem aware of the potential of these technologies but were willing to look at them. It seems as soon as they looked at these technologies and saw them for what they were they immediately worked on implementing their support very quickly. Why? Well these technologies perfectly compliment the perception of immersion which Frontier envisions.

Please take a quick look at the 18:00 - 19:06 section in the following video where David Braben speaks of the immersive richness that the developers at Frontier are trying to create in Elite: Dangerous. An immersive richness that such technologies can only enhance.

My other car's a Cobra MKIII - Nordic Game 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOYhoFYIWmw

Frontier want a "you IN your ship" experience married to a "you IN the universe" experience. This approach is truly on the cutting edge of innovation and is a step outside the box in regards to what has been done before.

Is it possible that many of the people who are perturbed by the idea of "no external view" to view their ship or the cosmos have not considered the true intent of Frontier? I do think so.

The lack of the implementation of an external view has nothing to do with combat advantages or disadvantages or wanting to limit peoples enjoyment of the beauty of their ship or the cosmos. Yet these misconceptions are continually espoused by many usually at the total exclusion of the real reasoning behind the design choice. The withholding of an out of cockpit external view is instead related to the immersion of "you being IN your ship IN the universe." It stands to reason that the implemention of an external view apart from some "in your ship" mechanic (ie. via a cockpit viewscreen for example) would completely undermine Frontier's intent.

From the very beginning Frontier Developments have stated their intention.

In "Elite: Dangerous" you fly a spaceship using a first person from-the-cockpit view, building on the elements from the previous games, with sumptious graphics enabled by the performance of modern PCs - all made possible using procedural techniques (see video on 'Procedural Generation' below).

Official Kickstarter
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

That sentiment has been alluded to since by various developers from time to time.

Just to clarify: the first person only view was not implemented because of any multiplayer consideration - it was a design choice that we feel supports the "you are in the world" experience we're aiming for. Obviously, I'm not saying you have to agree that it was a good choice though!

Sandro Sammarco - Senior Designer
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=297128#post297128

Elite will have cockpits just like this one and you're not going to be able to toggle them off either...
We're both saying that you play the game through the eyes of the pilot which means you do see the inside of your ship and you do look around and have camera motion that matches that of a head lolling about within the cockpit as you fly around.

When you want to walk around your ship you just stand up and then your walking around in first person, seamlessly. This creates an incredible level of immersion and will make even more sense if and when we get Oculus Rift or TrackIR support. Hell even just using the mouse to look around within your cockpit would be incredibly useful when flying your ship.

Mike Evans - Game Designer
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=141072#post141072

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

Michael Brookes - Executive Producer
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=154634#post154634

You folks keep stating nonsense like this. The first person only view is premised on the idea that the player is in their body. It has nothing fundamentally to do with PvP.

Now I know it is easier to argue from a point of fiction and get wrapped up in side issues because the fundamental issue is black and white but all you are really doing is attempting to a score goal whilst ignoring the actual goal box.

Pretty much. The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it. The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

Mike Evans - Game Designer
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=329873#post329873


David Braben and Ian Bell had a vision back in 1984, a vision which was outside the box. The box had 3 lives and 5-10 minutes of gameplay. There were many who could not envision what was outside of this box and thus would stubbornly stick to what they already knew and were familiar with. Thankfully Acornsoft were not limited by the box and they pubished the original Elite.

I would ask those perturbed by a lack of an external view to think outside the box. I would ask that we all think of solutions which do not limit Frontier's innovative vision, that we think of solutions which would instead enhance it.

Imagine a game where when you land you can walk around your ship and examine the new battle scars from your most recent exploits. A game where you are not sure what kind of external damage you have taken until such a time you have to get out and take a look, just like in real life when we check our cars after a ding.

Imagine a game where a player who wants to take beautiful screenshots (photos) when exploring can take the role of a photo-journalist. They would have a specialist ship equipped for such a role. Perhaps cameras deployed on hardpoints, perhaps a totally new ship design with a fishbowl cockpit where struts do not obstruct the view. Perhaps some kind of drone which they can remote control from the cockpit and then download and edit the video/photos later on.

The issue of a player wanting to view their ship externally or wanting to view the cosmos unobstructed can be solved without infringing on the innovative level of immersion which Frontier is trying hard to achieve.

Executive Producer Michael Brookes even recently stated regarding the external views utilised in some of their promotional material.

They're just dev tools at the moment. We are looking at ways to allow external views like camera drones.

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=561322&postcount=1231

Clearly the devleopers of Elite: Dangerous are continually looking at ways to enhance the experience for the players of Elite: Dangerous. Let's encourage them within the framework of their overall vision instead of unwittingly attempting to undermining it. The outcome of that can only be great, a resulting unique immersive experience with very solid gameplay.

I am looking forward to Elite: Dangerous more than any other game because of the vision I perceive Frontier as having. Perhaps I have misread them, I sure hope not.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Nice summary post.