External View [A definitive discussion]

[NeilF]

In my opinion, the definitive argument.

I'm just starting to appreciate the subtleties of what FD have delivered with tactical options and ship design in the alpha. Field of view is a very important one, it was picked up on by Neon Raven (regarding those excellent short films) when he(?) observed that you didn't have as good a view out of the top of the Cobra cockpit as you did in a Sidewinder.

Ship design for ED is more than just a list of hardpoints, manueverabilty and top speed. The actual cockpit placement has significant impact on what you can see, and that impacts on your awareness when eyeballing the scanner isn't enough. With the stealth mechanic that some FD genius came up with, the whole dynamic for visual range combat is turned on it's head.

Fair point... So as regards your issue, your concern is when jumping to external view, you may get a better view of the surrounding universe than through your cockpit? And no matter which ship you're in, you then get an equally good view?

I'd agree. Like for like, you'll definitely start with an advantage in the suggested external view over a cockpit. Almost certainly you'll see more like for like.

But, my take on it is - and this is where some of us seem to differ - then the negatives get piled on top of this +ve. eg:-
1) A 4-5 second delay to even get to it.
2) No scanner.
3) No hud - No access to hud features/controls?
4) Slower panning/movement of viewing then from within the cockpit. ie: It could well take longer to pan your view around than from within the cockpit.
5) Your ship blocking the middle of your view
6) Other optional limitations (nerfs) too?
7) A 4-5 delay to get out of it.

Now personally, at least for the moment, I see those -ve's as far outweighing any +ve's. And again, I know this is where some of us differ. And again, as more gameplay specifics come to light, this may not continue to be the case.

Does this at least explain my view? Even if it doesn't possibly fit your take on it?

For FD to invite an in-game mechanic that directly dilutes and contradicts an existing game mechanic, is frankly absurd.

We'll have to disagree here I feel. I don't see a contradiction. I see a feature that people will want to use periodically to more fully explore and enjoy the game. And let's not forget FD have hinted at such a feature in some shape or form (maybe using a droid?).

If this can be done without introducing any tactical advantage then what's the problem. If you don't like the idea, don't use it.

To my mind the only problem with an external view is if it cannot be offered without it upsetting fair gameplay etc. I'm sure we all agree on this. We just seem to differ maybe on what constitutes "upsetting fair gameplay".


ps: I notice you explicitly mentioned "stealth combat". Do you have a specific concern in this area regarding external view?

 

[Hamerstein]

ps: I notice you explicitly mentioned "stealth combat". Do you have a specific concern in this area regarding external view?

Absolutely.

The feature with stealth mode is it forces the pilot to use his eyes exclusively (your target vanishes off the scanner). Any advantage awarded by increasing view, even under controlled circumstances, reduces or negates the effectiveness of stealth.

The trouble is, even permitting external views in "non-combat" scenarios doesn't address the issue. Because ED is sandbox, there is no such situation.

To use an analogy, I'm out with my mates on a Friday night. I'm in a non-combat situation. It doesn't guarantee that I'm not going to be mugged or run over by a car that doesn't see me (or I don't see it).

I could cite many possible permutations of the effect of seeing something you normally wouldn't in external mode, they've most likely been done to death here.

As Toadman points out, this one is convoluted, best left to the guys who are designing the game.

 

[Sibbadd]

I see two possible solutions that may please everyone.

But first, I just want to add that I am NOT a fan of TPP in flight or space sims during combat. Strictly FPP for me.

1) Remote cameras. Whilst flying through space. You can log on to any of a number of, lets call them 'remote security cameras', that would be found in the vicinity of every spacestation or habited world. You can either command them to pan and track your ship from a fixed location as you fly past (flyby veiw) or have them follow you and allow you to control your angle. A tertiary display pops up in your cockpit and allows you to veiw whats being recorded with you panning the veiwpoint at your leisure. Once you've docked and landed you can veiw, edit and share footage with the community. In combat though, the camera is fixed to the rear of your ship and the screen in your cockpit zooms up to your face for full veiw OR if you are a FPP purist like me you can just dismiss it and fight like a real man

OR...

2) You simply purchase a module that deploys a single controllabe camera from your ship and does exactly the same thing as above.

The choice is there, if you're like me, you won't use them for combat (scanners work well for me) but if you do use them, you can.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

1) A 4-5 second delay to even get to it.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
2) No scanner.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
3) No hud - No access to hud features/controls?
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
4) Slower panning/movement of viewing then from within the cockpit. ie: It could well take long to pan your view around than from within the cockpit.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
5) Your ship in the middle of your view
- cool
6) Other optional limitations (nerfs) too?
- will probably not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
7) A 4-5 delay to get out of it.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.

Your ideas may be borderline adequate for a single pilot using 3rd person view on his own but they will not eliminate exploiting the feature in a multiplayer game where some people, just some, will skirt around any "nerfs" that you can pile on a player in 3rd person view.

You have not addressed or taken into account how players working together will use 3rd person to their advantage. I'll tell you now players won't think twice at having a disposable spotter sitting in 3rd person in their gang (in the cheapest ship possible too!) - a spotter - who relays info to the other 3 or 4 guys if a tactical advantage is viable. And those other 3 or 4 guys won't be subject to your 3rd person handicaps because they'll be primed and ready in 1st person yet gaining all the advantages 3rd person offers, albeit second hand.

Go watch a host of Arma videos or Dayz videos. Watch how 3rd person is used to relay info via teamspeak - info they wouldn't get in 1st person (like seeing over walls, around corners, beyond obstacles etc).. 1st person is practicably obsolete in those games because nearly everyone is forced to play in 3rd person - or play at a disadvantage. Only noobs play in 1st person and they quickly learn not to. That's what could happen in ED when players in co-op figure out how to gain a visual advantage over a pilot in Elite who is enjoying his 1st person experience.

Now none of your handicaps or tacked on features are needed if the 3rd person option is consigned to solo play, or even private group play where players are made aware its active. Why are you so unwilling to compromise? You want to see your ship in 3rd person against some fantastic backdrop, or see that convoy of Anacondas in 3rd person? Simple, drop into a solo group and watch it all unfold to your hearts content.

 

[NeilF]

Absolutely.

The feature with stealth mode is it forces the pilot to use his eyes exclusively (your target vanishes off the scanner). Any advantage awarded by increasing view, even under controlled circumstances, reduces or negates the effectiveness of stealth.

The trouble is, even permitting external views in "non-combat" scenarios doesn't address the issue. Because ED is sandbox, there is no such situation.

To use an analogy, I'm out with my mates on a Friday night. I'm in a non-combat situation. It doesn't guarantee that I'm not going to be mugged or run over by a car that doesn't see me (or I don't see it).

I could cite many possible permutations of the effect of seeing something you normally wouldn't in external mode, they've most likely been done to death here.

As Toadman points out, this one is convoluted, best left to the guys who are designing the game.

Understand you issue here, but I see this as a little more grey than you maybe do? I'll see if I can explain...

You're concerned you're homing in one someone using your super sneaky stealth. You're worried they'll be using external view to see you?

OK, couple of things why I see it as grey.
1) Are you assuming they'll be flying along constantly (often) in external view just in case? External view is a horrible place to fly from. No hud etc. No scanner etc. You're pretty vulnerable.
2) If someone were to enter external view just to look behind them, not only is the suggestion 4-5 seconds to enter the external view (deploy the drone) during which time you have no control of your ship. The suggestion of a slow pan in external view could then mean numerous seconds more to even get to a rear facing view.
3) Let's assume someone is in external view and looking around. Will they even see you (at distance)? Are they actively looking for you? Why?
4) To exit external view (it's suggested) will take 4-5 seconds during which time you have no control over your ship. You're pretty vulnerable!

If we consider all this, and specifically (2), someone in a cockpit could look behind them in less than a second. But I'll concede their view will not be as all encompassing.

So this alone to me, piles up so many negatives on external view, it out weights the use of it to try and spot stealth (cold) ships.


Some people were still not happy with this, so an additional (game play) limitation was therefore suggested which quite simply suggests if a ship is not on your scanner, do not show it in external view (or even its weapons fire etc). To me, this alone would seem to 100% solve your concern?

Some might of course declare, "Can't see a ship when looking at it? That's not very realistic!" Well first of all do you even know there's a ship there? And secondly if this requirement is there to ensure solid/fair game play then I personally don't see a problem. We have other such examples in the game which are there purely to allow the game to play correctly/fairly. eg:-
1) Maximum speed limits.
2) Immortality - You do not die when your ships is blown apart


Does that help? Hope so.



ps: Please remember these suggestions of how external view could work are not intended to be "the answer!" They're simply some of us suggesting what might be possible and how some common concerns (such as the one you've just raised) could be addressed. ie: Maybe don't close the case on external view just yet

 

[Markjamesonbrien]

Erimus,

I maybe missing a point here, but surely the very fact that by definition a group of players will have extra views anyway be it 3 versions of first person or 3 versions of third person, they will have a sight advantage anyway, the more eyes be it 3 players or 10 players they gain an advantage.

If anything having a third party view would negate the numerical advantage, logically I am afraid your argument is actually pro Third Party camera if you follow the logic.

 

[Hamerstein]

Understand you issue here, but I see this as a little more grey than you maybe do? I'll see if I can explain...

You're concerned you're homing in one someone using your super sneaky stealth. You're worried they'll be using external view to see you?

OK, couple of things why I see it as grey.
1) Are you assuming they'll be flying along constantly (often) in external view just in case? External view is a horrible place to fly from. No hud etc. No scanner etc. You've pretty vulnerable.
2) If someone were to enter external view just to look behind them, not only is the suggestion 4-5 seconds to enter the external view (deploy the drone) during which time you have no control of your ship. The suggestion of a slow pan in external view could then mean numerous seconds more to even get to a rear facing view.
3) Let's assume someone is in external view and looking around. Will they even see you (at distance)? Are they actively looking for you? Why?
4) To exit external view (it's suggested) will take 4-5 seconds during which time you have no control over your ship. You're pretty vulnerable!

If we consider all this, and specifically (2), someone in a cockpit could look behind them in less than a second. But I'll concede their view will not be as all encompassing.

So this alone to me, piles up so many negatives on external view, it out weights the use of it to try and spot stealth (cold) ships.


Some people were still not happy with this, so an additional (game play) limitation was therefore suggested which quite simply suggests if a ship is not on your scanner, do not show it in external view (or even its weapons fire etc). To me, this alone would seem to 100% solve your concern?

Some might of course declare, "Can't see a ship when looking at it? That's not very realistic!" Well first of all do you even know there's a ship there? And secondly if this requirement is there to ensure solid/fair game play then I personally don't see a problem. We have other such examples in the game which are there purely to allow the game to play correctly/fairly. eg:-
1) Maximum speed limits.
2) Immortality - You do not die when your ships is blown apart

I have to ask (and please don't take this the wrong way), are you an Alpha tester?

Because unless you are I don't think I can explain why I have issues with 3rd person. If you are, we can talk shop, because at least we'll be reading from the same page (and I'm being rubbish at explaining/understanding). At the moment, even with your best intentions, it appears to me that you're missing the point.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

Erimus,

I maybe missing a point here, but surely the very fact that by definition a group of players will have extra views anyway be it 3 versions of first person or 3 versions of third person, they will have a sight advantage anyway, the more eyes be it 3 players or 10 players they gain an advantage.

If anything having a third party view would negate the numerical advantage, logically I am afraid your argument is actually pro Third Party camera if you follow the logic.

I addressed that in an earlier post. Of course teamplay offers an advantage. And its an accepted advantage/disadvantage you take on board by consciously playing in a multiplayer game. But what's been mentioned throughout this thread is players worried that they'll be forced to experience Elite via 3rd person just to keep things on a more even playing field.

I personally would hate to have to switch into third person mode everytime I encounter a group of hostile players. I want to experience Elite from my cockpit. If I know all those other pilots are limited to cockpit view too the only disadvantage I have is a numbers one. Yes they can see more than me and work together, but I can experience the encounter in 1st person - exactly how I envision Elite to be - and how its always been.

Bottom line is I don't want to have to flip into Eve Online view just to try and even the playing field a little.

 

[NeilF]

Spoiler

1) A 4-5 second delay to even get to it.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
2) No scanner.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
3) No hud - No access to hud features/controls?
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
4) Slower panning/movement of viewing then from within the cockpit. ie: It could well take long to pan your view around than from within the cockpit.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
5) Your ship in the middle of your view
- cool
6) Other optional limitations (nerfs) too?
- will probably not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.
7) A 4-5 delay to get out of it.
- does not effect a 1st person wingman gaining intel from a 3rd person teammate.

Your ideas may be borderline adequate for a single pilot using 3rd person view on his own but they will not eliminate exploiting the feature in a multiplayer game where some people, just some, will skirt around any "nerfs" that you can pile on a player in 3rd person view.

You have not addressed or taken into account how players working together will use 3rd person to their advantage. I'll tell you now players won't think twice at having a disposable spotter sitting in 3rd person in their gang (in the cheapest ship possible too!) - a spotter - who relays info to the other 3 or 4 guys if a tactical advantage is viable. And those other 3 or 4 guys won't be subject to your 3rd person handicaps because they'll be primed and ready in 1st person yet gaining all the advantages 3rd person offers, albeit second hand.


Go watch a host of Arma videos or Dayz videos. Watch how 3rd person is used to relay info via teamspeak - info they wouldn't get in 1st person (like seeing over walls, around corners, beyond obstacles etc).. 1st person is practicably obsolete in those games because nearly everyone is forced to play in 3rd person - or play at a disadvantage. Only noobs play in 1st person and they quickly learn not to. That's what could happen in ED when players in co-op figure out how to gain a visual advantage over a pilot in Elite who is enjoying his 1st person experience.

Now none of your handicaps or tacked on features are needed if the 3rd person option is consigned to solo play, or even private group play where players are made aware its active. Why are you so unwilling to compromise? You want to see your ship in 3rd person against some fantastic backdrop, or see that convoy of Anacondas in 3rd person? Simple, drop into a solo group and watch it all unfold to your hearts content.

OK... Good points... But you'll have to help me out here. So your concern is one player is using external view to gain some advantage for a second (or other) players?

If I've understood this correctly, what is the external viewing player seeing that couldn't been see even more quickly from the cockpit? ie: Keep in mind they can almost certainly look around more quickly in cockpit.

Maybe give me an actual game play example if you can visualise one so we're both on the same page?

 

[NeilF]

I have to ask (and please don't take this the wrong way), are you an Alpha tester?

Because unless you are I don't think I can explain why I have issues with 3rd person. If you are, we can talk shop, because at least we'll be reading from the same page (and I'm being rubbish at explaining/understanding). At the moment, even with your best intentions, it appears to me that you're missing the point.

With all respect, I thought my post covered your concern quite well. Did you read it (all) before replying? Given your reply I get the impression you didn't?

Failing that you'll have to explain the point I'm missing with your concern?

Note: I said "point" because you raised a single specific concern (someone seeing a stealth'd ship using external view) which I addressed. Let's stick to that one for the moment shall we?

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

3rd person view by definition offers a wider field of view of your immediate environment. You can see a wider panoramic view, you can see beyond certain obstacles that normal line of sight (1st person) offers. In Elites case you may get a visual on a radar invisible ship (stealthed) that neither you in 3rd person, and definitely not your 1st person teammate could normally see since that ship is masked within an asteroid field (for example).

Now you can tack on all sorts of nerfs that restrict your view so your semi-3rd person view now resembles pretty much what you get in 1st person view. But I would hate that to happen because I love 3rd person view on the whole - it has its place. An un-nerfed 3rd person view in solo play is far better than a nerfed one in multiplay imho. 3rd person view to me is a view that is to be enjoyed, visually. Unfortunately in other games its often used to gain advantages that normal gameplay wouldn't offer.

So I'm saying leave 3rd person view alone - don't butcher it and don't make it a chore to flip into. But keep it out of ironman and the all group where it could be used for anything but looking at pretty backdrops.

 

[NeilF]

I addressed that in an earlier post. Of course teamplay offers an advantage. And its an accepted advantage/disadvantage you take on board by consciously playing in a multiplayer game. But what's been mentioned throughout this thread is players worried that they'll be forced to experience Elite via 3rd person just to keep things on a more even playing field.

I personally would hate to have to switch into third person mode everytime I encounter a group of hostile players. I want to experience Elite from my cockpit. If I know all those other pilots are limited to cockpit view too the only disadvantage I have is a numbers one. Yes they can see more than me and work together, but I can experience the encounter in 1st person - exactly how I envision Elite to be - and how its always been.

Bottom line is I don't want to have to flip into Eve Online view just to try and even the playing field a little.

Everyone (I hope) is in total agreement with you. And if you look at the OP you'll see it goes to some length to voice your opinion.

None of use want to play the game in external view. We're happy it's nerfed down so much its a disadvantage.

We only want external view to enjoy particular moments/scenes and get the most out of the game


If there was any suggestion otherwise, that an external view could not be offered achieving this, and that it would force people to play in it to be competitive, I'd be crying out to can it. And I suspect most other would too!

But I honestly do believe there's a good chance it can be offered in such a way we can all be happy with it. Time will tell, but let's not close the door on the feature unfairly until we know for sure?

 

[NeilF]

3rd person view by definition offers a wider field of view of your immediate environment. You can see a wider panoramic view, you can see beyond certain obstacles that normal line of sight (1st person) offers.

True, but within the cockpit you'll be able to look around quicker I'd suggest.

And consider some people will have a given FOV advantage just due to widescreen monitors or OR usage?

ie: I'd suggest someone can be floating along in a ship and looking around to possibly even better effect within cockpit, than in external view to see objects of interest? Remember, they won't even have any hud to help them even identify objects.

In Elites case you may get a visual on a radar invisible ship (stealthed) that nether you in 3rd person, and definitely not your 1st person teammate could normally see since that ship is masked within an asteroid field (for example).

Suggestion is in external view, you cannot see ships which are not on your scanner.



Does that help?

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

We only want external view to enjoy particular moments/scenes and get the most out of the game

I understand that and several compromises have been offered.

Allow it in solo and private groups, or my personal favorite allow pilots to record gameplay footage that can be played back later. Footage you can view from any conceivable angle, any vantage point you can imagine. That latter one is used in other games and is a fantastic feature (Total War has it for example). You could save all your most memorable moments and keep what is essentially a digital & visual captains log of your experiences in Elite.

It goes way beyond 3rd person mode actually. But crucially its recorded footage and not "live" gameplay.

 

[Hamerstein]

With all respect, I thought my post covered your concern quite well. Did you read it (all) before replying? Given your reply I get the impression you didn't?

Failing that you'll have to explain the point I'm missing with your concern?

Note: I said "point" because you raised a single specific concern which I addressed. Let's stick to that one for the moment shall we?

Ok I'll try to explain.

You're concerned you're homing in one someone using your super sneaky stealth. You're worried they'll be using external view to see you?

That's not a completely invalid assumption, but neither is it accurate.

1) Are you assuming they'll be flying along constantly (often) in external view just in case? External view is a horrible place to fly from. No hud etc. No scanner etc. You're pretty vulnerable.

No this doesn't always happen, I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not an accurate assumption.

Try and think submarine warfare.

2) If someone were to enter external view just to look behind them, not only is the suggestion 4-5 seconds to enter the external view (deploy the drone) during which time you have no control of your ship. The suggestion of a slow pan in external view could then mean numerous seconds more to even get to a rear facing view.

It really doesn't matter, if you've got 2 good users of stealth, combat isn't a fast paced "bam and you're gone" affair, combat could take minutes - often without a shot fired. Stealth battles involve heat management, weapon selection and having good mark 1 eyeballs! Quite often to avoid building up too much heat, you're creeping about or static.

3) Let's assume someone is in external view and looking around. Will they even see you (at distance)? Are they actively looking for you? Why?

Because briefly you or they appeared on scanner, or one of us had better sensors. Stealth isn't something you turn on and forget about, you have to manage it. As DB said, it's like holding your breath - but some people can hold their breath of much, much longer. Visually investigating a brief sensor resolution is very much part of the stealth game.

4) To exit external view (it's suggested) will take 4-5 seconds during which time you have no control over your ship. You're pretty vulnerable!

I covered that above, Combat isn't always frenetic.

If we consider all this, and specifically (2), someone in a cockpit could look behind them in less than a second. But I'll concede their view will not be as all encompassing.

No they can't, you cannot look out of the back of your cockpit, at least not in a Sidewinder or Cobra. You have a surprisingly limited view - even with OR or headtracking. Neither can you look out of the back of your own head, so attempting to look behind you requires ship movement - movement that might been seen, and that generates heat.

Some people were still not happy with this, so an additional (game play) limitation was therefore suggested which quite simply suggests if a ship is not on your scanner, do not show it in external view (or even its weapons fire etc). To me, this alone would seem to 100% solve your concern?

No, frankly that's a terrible idea, why on Earth would a ship that stealthed (not emmitting heat) suddenly become invisible? What you need to appreciate is that while FD have had to gamify some things, they've gone to exceptional efforts to keep it to a minimum.

Some might of course declare, "Can't see a ship when looking at it? That's not very realistic!" Well first of all do you even know there's a ship there? And secondly if this requirement is there to ensure solid/fair game play then I personally don't see a problem. We have other such examples in the game which are there purely to allow the game to play correctly/fairly. eg:-
1) Maximum speed limits.

No this was a network model limitation, not to do with "Keeping it fair".

2) Immortality - You do not die when your ships is blown apart

The magic escape pod was one of the few gamified decisions, really it's there to promote bold gameplay. If we were forced to redo from start every time we died, the game wouldn't evolve, no one would take risks.

There is always Iron man for the terminally brave .

Using a gamified solution so you can take some nice screenshots or admire your ship (which you can do perfectly well from the station dock) isn't really a good justification.

How about waiting til we can walk around outside, then you can park your ship and admire to your hearts content?

I don't expect you to appreciate this fully, because if you haven't played it - you can't. When you do, I think you'll appreciate better why external views aren't such a great idea.

 

[NeilF]

ONo, frankly that's a terrible idea, why on Earth would a ship that stealthed (not emmitting heat) suddenly become invisible? What you need to appreciate is that while FD have had to gamify some things, they've gone to exceptional efforts to keep it to a minimum.

This is where we'll have to agree to disagree then

Although I'm not keen on this "limitation" I'd be more than happy with it if it resulted in level gameplay.

To me, almost all the time, you're not seeing a ship that you haven't seen in the first place. And if you have seen a stealthed ship coming towards you, and go into external view, then frankly you've got worse things to worry about.

And you'll have to admit it's odd that you - as someone who seemingly doesn't want to use the feature - is objecting to its workings? You won't be using it? Why do you care?

How about waiting til we can walk around outside, then you can park your ship and admire to your hearts content?

If it gives a nice quick(ish) means of viewing things nicely great! My fear is to do an EVA will be a time consuming "faff". ie: Something beautiful is unfolding outside your ship, and you spend a minute(+) getting outside in person, and the moment is lost



But anyway, if we stick solely to the the rule that ships not shown on your scanner, aren't shown visually in external view, it seemingly overcomes the concern raised? It nerfs it enough to mean there is not concern over it being used for seeing things you shouldn't fairly be able to see.

We'll have to differ on the opinion of how acceptible it is.

I don't expect you to appreciate this fully, because if you haven't played it - you can't. When you do, I think you'll appreciate better why external views aren't such a great idea.

Do you realise how condescending that comes across? Especially when it's clear you've not read the OP in a thread you're wading into? Which in itself is a summary of points/thought from numerous people, some I'm sure who may just be as wise and insightful as yourself? Anyway

 

[Hamerstein]

And you'll have to admit it's odd that you - as someone who seemingly doesn't want to use the feature - is objecting to its workings? You won't be using it? Why do you care?

You misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want to use the feature, I don't want to see it in game.

If it gives a nice quick(ish) means of viewing things nicely great! My fear is to do an EVA will be a time consuming "faff". ie: Something beautiful is unfolding outside your ship, and you spend a minute(+) getting outside in person, and the moment is lost

That's the point really. If you see something cool from your cockpit - take a picture from your cockpit. I'll cite Neon Raven's short films again, these were all filmed from cockpit view, they are spectacular and required no gimmickry to achieve, just a fantastic eye for scenes and some top notch flying.

Do you realise how condescending that comes across? Especially when it's clear you've not read the OP in a thread you're wading into? Which in itself is a summary of points/thought from numerous people, some I'm sure who may just be as wise and insightful as yourself? Anyway

When I first asked about your playing experience I requested that you not take my query the wrong way. I find it rather ironic that you're telling me that I don't fully appreciate the nuances involved in a game that I have been playing, testing and have experienced first-hand and then accuse me of condescension.

You've had my suggestion, wait for the EVA expansion, get out of your ship and take some pics - if you choose to do that while in space and in the middle of a pitched battle, I wish you the best of luck!

 

[NeoRacer]

Yes exactly, if your stupid enough to do that so be it, but at least give us the option we dont need a feature nerfed becus it'll break immersion for some people, like I said dont use it or join servers with 3p turned off. We can all enjoy the game how we like

You misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want to use the feature, I don't want to see it in game.



That's the point really. If you see something cool from your cockpit - take a picture from your cockpit. I'll cite Neon Raven's short films again, these were all filmed from cockpit view, they are spectacular and required no gimmickry to achieve, just a fantastic eye for scenes and some top notch flying.



When I first asked about your playing experience I requested that you not take my query the wrong way. I find it rather ironic that you're telling me that I don't fully appreciate the nuances involved in a game that I have been playing, testing and have experienced first-hand and then accuse me of condescension.

You've had my suggestion, wait for the EVA expansion, get out of your ship and take some pics - if you choose to do that while in space and in the middle of a pitched battle, I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Robert Maynard]

....or join servers with 3p turned off.

There aren't any. All players in the all group are available to be instance matched with all others (subject to caveats regarding ping times, etc., etc.) - there are no servers with different rule sets and no user run servers.

 

[NeilF]

You misunderstand me, it's not that I don't want to use the feature, I don't want to see it in game.

Well I have to ask why are you posting in this thread?

If you're dead set on your opinion they why raise points for/against it, if nothing anyone says will meet with any consideration? What's your goal of "participating"?

If you have a perceived problem or issue, for/against, great, post it, and we can discuss it. Which is surely the purpose of the thread. But if you're not going to give any post the time of day unless it's inline with your own? - Confused...



So if I ask why you don't want to see it in game, is there a reason or reasons? eg: A top three? So at least I can understand where you are coming from? See something I'm missing or overlooked?