External View [A definitive discussion]

[psyron]

In the way i described it previously ...

... yes!

 

[NeoRacer]

Nope it would never be WarThunder, there is too much to be done inside the cockpit so trying to use a 3p as an advantage would only get you killed in short order. Same with the DCS sims, you would never even try to switch to a 3p during a dogfight it would be suicide. I dont want a 'chase cam' view stuck to the back of the ship, but a useful tool for viewing the ships and universe in all its glory. There's no NEED to invent a fictional 'drone' view I find that laughable..its a game, we can have any views it doesnt have to be attached to a fake drone. This is utter bullcrap.

I don't get this argument at all, it is simple to me. Track ir and the rift both bring the ED experience closer to the devs vision of playing in the commanders eyes. A magic god view is completely counter to this. Some on here are hoping for a nerfed compromise to allow some eye candy shots. This may happen but time and again you have made it clear this is not what u want. You want a full on unlimited 3rd person view. This will never happen and IMO you need to accept it and enjoy the game for what it is or move on to a better fit.

Elite will never be warthunder arcade mode, it is much more like warthunder historical battles and personally I am so glad of that. Personally I would be happy with 2 game modes (like warthunder) so long as never the 2 could meet but AFAIK that is a no go as its yet another split in the player base for those who care about multiplayer. (I am not one of them)

 

[[VR] Shadowman]

The only proper reason I've seen is that it's the dev's design decision. And while I disagree with that one, it doesn't really matter as it's simply a case of "take it or leave it, it's our game and we like it this way" and you cannot really argue with that!

Now, whichever side of the debate you fall on this supersedes it in my opinion, FD are god here, and their view at the moment is as stated above.

Whilst I agree with the rest of your comments, I feel slightly annoyed when I read sentences like these. FD may be making the game, but we're the ones who got it off the ground and speculated with our cash in order for them to build it in the first place. I seriously dislike being told "it's our game, accept it" - such comments have no place here. Further, if they don't listen to feedback, well... you know what can happen to such games.

Surely, all they need to do is use the non-combat drone idea, to allow those of us who wish to take screenshots to do so. Non-combat means it pleases the "yes" and "no" crowds and also allows FD to maintain their pilot + cockpit standpoint. I don't care if it's a drone/robot or a very long arm extending from the ship, so long as there's an option.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What about a camera that fits to a hardpoint? It could see what is straight ahead and record direct to local storage. The recorded scene would be the same as the cockpit view but would be stored before the various overlays that make up the cockpit, HUD, etc.

It could also be gimballed with as much freedom of movement as headlook - with TrackIR or Oculus Rift, the cinematographers out there could have a field day!

 

[psyron]

There's no NEED to invent a fictional 'drone' view I find that laughable..its a game, we can have any views it doesnt have to be attached to a fake drone. This is utter bullcrap.

We need the drone. It makes absolutely sense.
Provides prefect drawbacks to eliminate dogfight-advantages many are scared of. And it's 100% immersion.

It's only a game? Are you kidding? Then go play Star Citizen if that's what you really think.

 

[psyron]

Whilst I agree with the rest of your comments, I feel slightly annoyed when I read sentences like these. FD may be making the game, but we're the ones who got it off the ground and speculated with our cash in order for them to build it in the first place. I seriously dislike being told "it's our game, accept it" - such comments have no place here. Further, if they don't listen to feedback, well... you know what can happen to such games.

Surely, all they need to do is use the non-combat drone idea, to allow those of us who wish to take screenshots to do so. Non-combat means it pleases the "yes" and "no" crowds and also allows FD to maintain their pilot + cockpit standpoint. I don't care if it's a drone/robot or a very long arm extending from the ship, so long as there's an option.

Fully agree!

 

[tooterfish]

Can't say I agree with the sentiment that this is somehow "our game", and we should get to dictate to the developers.

The FSD has shown that Frontier are more than willing to listen to backers and make drastic changes to the design, but the fact that they can and will say no if they deem that an idea doesn't fit is great in my opinion. You can't design a game by committee, especially not the committee of monkeys with typewriters that comprises most of the internet.

That being said, camera drone isn't a bad idea. Make it so deployment takes some time, and give it a nice big fat scanner signature.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

But you can't please everyone though, so who is more important, the early backers who took the risk, that pledged money based on the promise of the game being through the eyes of the commander OR the Joe public who are expecting galaxy on fire 3 (or who didn't understand what the primary goal of ED is)

Either way someone is going to be put out.

FWIW I don't care what is possible in single player offline, they can add what ever you like in there - indeed the idea of accelerated time to view high speed sunsets etc appeals to me.

Also IF a drone can be implemented which offers no advantage in game such as to Make me feel obliged to use it to be on an even keel then I have no issue either in the online game.....

 

[NeilF]

I'm sure they would, that's a pretty big if though.

Once you start looking into the issue it's not at all simple to fix.

And again, this poll might have faults, but at least it's reasonably impartial and actually exists.

Again, I'd ignore the poll... The choices are not logical.

We all know any external view is only of any interest to most of us - and certainly Frontier? - if it does not compromised the cockpit experience. That is not implied in the poll hence (I suspect) most people voting "no" most likely based on the concern it will be your tradition external view allowing to fly/fight from that position. And most/none(?) of us want that

 

[NeilF]

But you can't please everyone though, so who is more important, the early backers who took the risk, that pledged money based on the promise of the game being through the eyes of the commander OR the Joe public who are expecting galaxy on fire 3 (or who didn't understand what the primary goal of ED is)

Either way someone is going to be put out.

FWIW I don't care what is possible in single player offline, they can add what ever you like in there - indeed the idea of accelerated time to view high speed sunsets etc appeals to me.

Also IF a drone can be implemented which offers no advantage in game such as to Make me feel obliged to use it to be on an even keel then I have no issue either.....

Alternatively, a simple drone is implemented that, through a set of simple "nerfs", actually offers a combat disadvantage rather than advantage.

Then surely everyone is pretty happy?

 

[horncastle]

ED have made a mistake, I'm sure they will back track and implement something that works that enables capturing of external footage/shots

 

[Tinman]

ED have made a mistake...

No they haven't.

I'm sure they will back track and implement something that works that enables capturing of external footage/shots

They don't have to backtrack...they have already said that they might implement ways of showing an external view in the form of a camera drone or something similar. This will still take place from inside the cockpit through the eyes of the pilot though, NOT as a disembodied camera floating outside in space.

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

Michael

As for making movies and taking pictures as a way to promote the game:

• Players can take photographs (essentially screenshots) from their view ports (with and without cockpit and GUI etc)
  • Player photographs can be submitted to a regular photography contest
    • Players can only submit one photograph each
  • Players can vote on a selection of the best photographs
  • The player(s) who get the most votes wins the competition
    • The winner gets a (in game) cash prize (plus prizes for 2nd 3rd most weird etc.)
    • The photograph (and other user submissions) will be used in appropriate places in the game (billboards, news papers, etc.)

(emphasis mine)

Taken from the Exploration proposal in the DDF.
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6561

 

[Theodrid]

Whilst I agree with the rest of your comments, I feel slightly annoyed when I read sentences like these. FD may be making the game, but we're the ones who got it off the ground and speculated with our cash in order for them to build it in the first place. I seriously dislike being told "it's our game, accept it" - such comments have no place here. Further, if they don't listen to feedback, well... you know what can happen to such games.

Surely, all they need to do is use the non-combat drone idea, to allow those of us who wish to take screenshots to do so. Non-combat means it pleases the "yes" and "no" crowds and also allows FD to maintain their pilot + cockpit standpoint. I don't care if it's a drone/robot or a very long arm extending from the ship, so long as there's an option.

Feedback, like most things has a good and a bad side, there are examples of games that have listened to their communities and as such certain aspects of said games have been improved. But do not forget there is also a myriad of games that have listened to their communities too much and a negative effect has taken place.

Now I am pretty sure that those in favour of 3rdppov will argue that 'yeah but this is good for the game, it enhances it' etc etc. Well, unless that point of view becomes FD's point of view, which, let's face it, would not only be a pretty large U-turn on FD's part but also raises questions, (raised earlier in this thread), about when this external view should or would have been tested. Surely, if it was to be in from launch then the time to test this is during PVP centred alpha phases. In short, the farther down the development road this game gets without testing an external view of any form then the less likely it becomes that it will be there at launch.

I would go as far as to say that the boat may have already sailed in regards to having it implemented by launch, considering there is not even an announcement from FD to say 'we're thinking about it' and we are rapidly approaching premium beta phase.

 

[jabokai]

One of the opponents of 3rd person views posted this (portion) on the other thread yesterday -

... I have a game (F1 2013) that is sim like, but still a game.
The cockpit view is the most immersed view, and I love everything about it.
It tells me everything I should need to know, nothing more, nothing less.
I have a friend who also has it, and guess what, he can't play it in anything but 3rd person.

Although in his wider post he was dissing 3rd person view, it strikes me he inadvertently makes a good point FOR different views in his example. That game him and his friend play... What would happen if either of them were forced to use the other's view? At best one player is much less happy, at worst there would be one less player, period! As it is they can both happily play the same game... Nice that, innit.

 

[Speedmonkey]

An alternative (Photo Mode - Free Camera - Screenshot)

What about a photo mode, like gran turismo or forza. This would show off the beauty of the game, would allow for screenshots and a wider view without spoiling the immersive nature of the game.

It would also allow creative photograph types (like myself) take "photos" of other worlds, ships and scenes we'd never have a chance to.

Having this be like digital camera (F stops, focus and zoom) would be even better

 

[KickahasTier]

Drone tech, wow ok, that seems something reasonable. Or external cameras, fixed to your hull, also pretty reasonable... and why exclude them from combat?

If there is a problem its FD, not communicating their plans. But then we didn't pay for access to the design discussions did we.

Anyone else feel like this forum is a hamster wheel. We just wait until the hand of god opens the door to beta.

Why would a screenshot mode not be created?, I mean really..

 

[NeoRacer]

NOOO! Its 1982 not 2014 dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would a screenshot mode not be created?, I mean really..

 

[Gulinborsti]

One of the opponents of 3rd person views posted this (portion) on the other thread yesterday -



Although in his wider post he was dissing 3rd person view, it strikes me he inadvertently makes a good point FOR different views in his example. That game him and his friend play... What would happen if either of them were forced to use the other's view? At best one player is much less happy, at worst there would be one less player, period! As it is they can both happily play the same game... Nice that, innit.

Getting used to FPV is usually only a matter of training and getting used to it.

And in the worst case I'd rather have one player less in any game than messing around with players exploiting 3PV mechanics. There is no such thing as a non exploitable 3PV, at least I have not yet found a game that managed it.

Same goes for mouse + keyboard aiming but this is a different story.

Wanna play Sim Racing games? Get a Wheel an Pedals!
Wanna play Flight/Space Sims? Get a Hotas and Pedals!

 

[NeilF]

They don't have to backtrack...they have already said that they might implement ways of showing an external view in the form of a camera drone or something similar. This will still take place from inside the cockpit through the eyes of the pilot though, NOT as a disembodied camera floating outside in space.

I think you might be in danger of assuming too much or reading too much into their cryptic comments on this?

Their comments clearly state the game is to be "played" from within the cockpit, which to me suggests you won't be able to fly the ship from an external view with all bells & whistles you have available in the cockpit. But I've not seen anything that suggests an external view - if ever offered - will only be offered from within the cockpit (via a hud/monitor)?

 

[NeilF]

Surely, if it was to be in from launch then the time to test this is during PVP centred alpha phases. In short, the farther down the development road this game gets without testing an external view of any form then the less likely it becomes that it will be there at launch.

I would go as far as to say that the boat may have already sailed in regards to having it implemented by launch, considering there is not even an announcement from FD to say 'we're thinking about it' and we are rapidly approaching premium beta phase.

I fear you may be right... But that said, as we can see there's lots of potential gameplay issues with offering an external view, and it may simply be that Frontier are playing their cards close to their chest so do not want to offer such a feature until the game is more complete, so all potential issues/problems are known.

I hope quite simply they have an external view planned, but they are ensuring it doesn't introduce any problems before releasing/confirming it. The very fact they've mentioned having external drones for this feature surely means that have/are considering it seriously?

That's my hope anyway :smilie: