External View [A definitive discussion]

[Jack Booted Thug]

See 'The Mighty Anaconda' video as a good example of Frontier using the 3rd person view ...or pretty much ANY video they release actually.

Allow a 3rd person view only when:
1) In supercruise
2) During the hyperspace jump (which is really a form of loading screen)
3) When docking using the auto-docking computer

These three processes all use a 3rd person view in The Mighty Anaconda video and it looks great in doing so.

Not one of these three things offers any sort of combat or gameplay advantage (in 2 of them you don't even have control of the ship....) and for those that don't want to risk any break in immersion, they can simply not use the toggle switch on the keyboard to switch to this temporary 3rd person view.


At that point, I can't see any possible argument against allowing people to enjoy a small amount of 3rd person view other than stomping your feet and yelling, "no you can't have it because!"

Is it really hard to understand that access to an external view in a true first person game undermines the game being first person?

Frontier have been very clear the their design decision is all about "you" being "in" your ship. An external view operating outside of this first person mechanic is "you outside your ship."

This issue, as it relates to the design put forth by Frontier, has nothing to do with combat advantages or disadvantages.

Any external view in Elite: Dangerous, if Frontier are to keep in line with their stated reasons, must remain within the framework of "you in your ship."

 

[NeilF]

Is it really hard to understand that access to an external view in a true first person game undermines the game being first person?

Frontier have been very clear the their design decision is all about "you" being "in" your ship. An external view operating outside of this first person mechanic is "you outside your ship."

This issue, as it relates to the design put forth by Frontier, has nothing to do with combat advantages or disadvantages.

Any external view in Elite: Dangerous, if Frontier are to keep in line with their stated reasons, must remain within the framework of "you in your ship."

Well, I've not understood it that way. I've always taken their comments to mean they want you to pilot your ship/play from the cockpit view. I see that as something very different as an external view to simply enjoy the visuals/atmosphere of the game while in no way offering a good place to pilot your ship/play from?

And I'd suggest FD seem more and more happy to break your suggested "you in your ship" position, by introducing more and more views other than this? eg: The magical galaxy map which somehow takes up your entire FOV? And of course the external views in space stations. Now if these somehow magically take up your entire FOV (visual implants?) then why couldn't an external view drone do the same?


And let's not forget:-

Other points you make will almost certainly be addressed, such as the ability to ogle your ship via camera/drones or some such functionality. We are darn proud of our ships and we want to eat them up with our eyes just as much as you do!

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

Well, I've not understood it that way. I've always taken their comments to mean they want you to pilot your ship/play from the cockpit view. I see that as something very different as an external view to simply enjoy the visuals/atmosphere of the game while in no way offering a good place to pilot your ship/play from?

And I'd suggest FD seem more and more happy to break your suggested "you in your ship" position, by introducing more and more views other than this? eg: The magical galaxy map which somehow takes up your entire FOV? And of course the external views in space stations. Now if these somehow magically take up your entire FOV (visual implants?) then why couldn't an external view drone do the same?

Yes both the Galaxy Map and the external view in the docking hanger are inconsistencies for sure. These may be addressed (I hope so) later on as things are tidied up. I actually think it would be nice if external camera feeds were viewable on a screen in the cockpit and that they player can zoom into the feed and thus make it full screen (this would address both inconsistencies mentioned above). Even drones could be operated the same way.

I think a solution for people who want to view space clearly is simply the ability to be able to record externally from a camera mounted on the outside of the ship. They could be a "photo-journalist" if you will.

 

[NeilF]

I actually think it would be nice if external camera feeds were viewable on a screen in the cockpit and that they player can zoom into the feed and thus make it full screen (this would address both inconsistencies mentioned above).

That would be nice BUT the problem would be the gameplay issues it might introduce? ie: Being able to have all the benefits of the cockpit, and external views. ie: Being able to see behind you, or an increased FOV view etc.

One great feature of a full screen external view via a drone, is a nice 4-5 second transition video from the drones viewpoint as it detaches/docks with your ship. This is a nice nerf (time penalty) for using it. ie: Not only do you lose all your HUD (while using it), you also lose your controls for 4-5 seconds deploying/docking.

 

[trumpet]

We should be able to launch a camera drone & salve helmet view to the drone

 

[blacky75]

i'm too late to vote... but I'll see what the commander sees, being IN the cockpit, not floating behind ^^

Outside view can be added, I just won't use it.

It's the same for gamers in car sims... hardcore gamers like in cockpit views ONLY, others, all and outside

At least, everyone chooses what he wants

 

[1500]

3PV should not be usable in combat or near combat. Love the idea of having a camera bot that you can deploy and then control directly (switching to its view and have your controls only control it), or be able to "fix" it at a length/distance from your ship and set to follow (but disabled when entering combat). This would also be cool to have for planetary landings, when they happen.

 

[TerranAmbassador]

3PV should not be usable in combat or near combat.

Quick question:

How do define what combat is?

 

[1500]

Quick question:

How do define what combat is?

Getting shot at, weapons deployed, taking damage, targeted by another player/npc, targeting another player/npc.

 

[NeilF]

3PV should not be usable in combat or near combat. Love the idea of having a camera bot that you can deploy and then control directly (switching to its view and have your controls only control it), or be able to "fix" it at a length/distance from your ship and set to follow (but disabled when entering combat). This would also be cool to have for planetary landings, when they happen.

As TerranAmbassador is implying "combat" is not black and white issue. You might be using an external view for a tactical advantage before shooting etc etc?

IMHO keep it simple. A drone that takes 4-5 seconds to deploy and then to dock. No hud or the like while the drone is deployed. This way there's a consistant set of rules and penalties that hopefully nerf it enough to be of not use/benefit in combat, and typically quite the opposite.

 

[Valkyrie]

Is it really hard to understand that access to an external view in a true first person game undermines the game being first person?

No it does not. I'm puzzled why you would be so adamant other players confine their experience to a seemingly narrow interpretation of one of the design ideologies. FE2 and FFE were both first person but had an external view. That existing did not undermine the game, it only enriched it.

One thing that concerns me is official (particularly recent) videos and image media keeps showing external views and I think that is misleading to buyers and long fans of the series alike, just like star citizens extensive use of imagery with ships flying in atmospheres, because neither are possible (right now anyway). I can't help it, but that irks me, probably more than normal because such a simple feature that players want is being lobbied against by players who it does not affect or would even use such a feature.

This issue, as it relates to the design put forth by Frontier, has nothing to do with combat advantages or disadvantages.

And this just puzzles me even more, you and others know it's got nothing to do with balance, so why would you even care enough to try and make sure other players do not get to enjoy such a thing.

 

[NeilF]

No it does not. I'm puzzled why you would be so adamant other players confine their experience to a seemingly narrow interpretation of one of the design ideologies. FE2 and FFE were both first person but had an external view. That existing did not undermine the game, it only enriched it.

One thing that concerns me is official (particularly recent) videos and image media keeps showing external views and I think that is misleading to buyers and long fans of the series alike, just like star citizens extensive use of imagery with ships flying in atmospheres, because neither are possible (right now anyway). I can't help it, but that irks me, probably more than normal because such a simple feature that players want is being lobbied against by players who it does not affect or would even use such a feature.

And this just puzzles me even more, you and others know it's got nothing to do with balance, so why would you even care enough to try and make sure other players do not get to enjoy such a thing.

I also responded to his post to - http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=525814&postcount=1162

He didn't reply so I suspect he didn't like the answer

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

No it does not. I'm puzzled why you would be so adamant other players confine their experience to a seemingly narrow interpretation of one of the design ideologies. FE2 and FFE were both first person but had an external view. That existing did not undermine the game, it only enriched it.

My understanding is that Frontier want to create a true "you in your ship" experience and clearly an external view like in Frontier would totally undermine this.

FE2 and FFE were first and third person and due to this the experience was not "you in your ship." Instead it was "you with your ship."

Frontier appear to be taking a bold approach this time around in really defining the "you in your ship experience" and don't want game dynamics which undermine it.

I understand it takers some getting used to because very few games have taken this approach.

I for one like it but I can understand why others do not. Although I do think it is a vocal minority that make a lot of noise.

 

[1500]

As TerranAmbassador is implying "combat" is not black and white issue. You might be using an external view for a tactical advantage before shooting etc etc?

IMHO keep it simple. A drone that takes 4-5 seconds to deploy and then to dock. No hud or the like while the drone is deployed. This way there's a consistant set of rules and penalties that hopefully nerf it enough to be of not use/benefit in combat, and typically quite the opposite.

So what if you want to use it for a tactical advantage? If you can't shoot, target, or be targeted with it deployed, (meaning you can't see in 3pv) what does it matter? Also there would not be a hud because you are looking through the lens of the camera not your pilot seat. Sure you can use it as a means to hide behind an asteroid and peak around, but that should be an option. Not sure how what you are saying is different than what I said.

No hud would not fix anything, I have no problem shooting ships as it is with out the hud, people would figure that out. Going into combat should snap you back to FP mode, with the drone comping back an auto.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

I also responded to his post to - http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=525814&postcount=1162

He didn't reply so I suspect he didn't like the answer

I actually did reply in the very next post so I am not sure why you are being smug in saying that and appending it with a smiley face? Does my post not show up on your machine?

Here was my response...
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=525825&postcount=1163

Even if I didn't reply it would not matter. This is a forum where we can freely express our opinion and there is no obligation for people to read every post or respond to every post. There are plenty of others things I would often rather be doing than propagandising an internet forum. Thus I'll often let the chips fall where they may due to not reading follow ups or not continuing to follow a topic.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

I think the very early adoption of both Oculus and TrackIR support in the early Alpha is a clear indicator of the approach Frontier is taking with Elite: Dangerous.

Both Oculus Rift and TrackIR increase the "immersive feel" of "you in your ship" to a great degree and Frontier were very fast in adopting this increase in immersion.

Frontier really wants to create a unique experience that I think will go hand in hand with the "walking around" and "exiting your spaceship" expansions, which I suspect will be first person only as well.

I find it very compelling.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

On another note I wonder if anyone has considered the effect an external view (viewed from outside the ship as opposed from a screen in the cockpit) would have on those who use Oculus Rift and TrackIR.

It is very jarring to go from a First Person View when using a head tacker to a Third Person View simply because turning your head has a different effect in both views. One view you are inside your head and the world reacts accordingly whilst the other is a panning view which, in my opinion, feels very uncomfortable.

I noticed this in War Thunder in Arcade Mode where one can freely shift from First to Third person on the fly. It is very hard to adapt and it basically forced me to disable my TrackIR when playing War Thunder arcade mode. In War Thunder I prefer to use the keyboard for free look instead of my TrackIR for this very reason.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I think the very early adoption of both Oculus and TrackIR support in the early Alpha is a clear indicator of the approach Frontier is taking with Elite: Dangerous.

Both Oculus Rift and TrackIR increase the "immersive feel" of "you in your ship" to a great degree and Frontier were very fast in adopting this increase in immersion.

Frontier really wants to create a unique experience that I think will go hand in hand with the "walking around" and "exiting your spaceship" expansions, which I suspect will be first person only as well.

I find it very compelling.

That's an interesting point you raise. Its almost as if FD are determined to leave the old school way of doing things behind (in regards to a players perception) and are embracing new techniques and technologies that actually internalize your perception of the world you're in, immerse and surround you within the game instead of the older traditional done-to-death external views that games for the last two decades have offered.

If we know anything about David Braben its that he likes to do things differently and embrace new ways of doing things. Pushing the boundaries of what's possible.

I'm not saying both can't co-exist, but if I was a betting man I would say FDs priority will be down the internal VR route over the older external 3PV route when it comes to this aspect of the gameworld they're creating and our perception of it. Although they are diametrically opposed so it may well be one or the other in the end.

 

[Jack Booted Thug]

And this just puzzles me even more, you and others know it's got nothing to do with balance, so why would you even care enough to try and make sure other players do not get to enjoy such a thing.

I care about the immersive intent that Frontier has espoused.

I find their approach very innovative and new. I honestly cannot think of any other game which has really taken this approach. The only exception would be some Arma 2 and 3 hardcore mods/servers which disable third person view entirely to create a truly immersive experience.

The Arma Clan Shack Tac take this approach in all their scenarios too. Here are a few recent examples...

DCS - Windy Night Time Landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090GVfTWEB4

Arma 2 - A View To Die For
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZZh_K2DRs

 

[Dinbar]

I've said this before ( almost a broken record ) but I'm not interested in the 3rd person view for combat more for screen shots and you tube stuff.

That's (IMHO) the real thing that sells games. word of mouth and superb visuals.

I also think its a waste of assets not being able to see my own shiny or dirty ship. I'd also like to switch off the HUD and Hull just for the view pleasure.