Frontier - Enough Shoulder Shrugging - Get Tough on Exploits and Exploiters.

[Ouberos]

I'm with Bran on the instance swapping. It carries the same weight as combat logging to me because it gives you a monetary advantage over me in the same way as ducking out of my combat.

Somebody explained to me that there position was that instance swapping is victimless where as Clogging isn't but I don't agree with that. Especially if further down the track I'm interdicted and killed by a combat corvette earned in rank and cash by mode switching.

The only conclusion as to why people do it is that some folks just can't handle Elite.

 

[Vorxian]

I have a slightly different perspective.

I personally think blaming the community for exploiting a glaring defect in the coding is NOT the players fault.

Players can only do what the coding allows. If it allows it, players will do it. If what the players are doing is considered not within the games intended limitations, then DONT BLOODY LEAVE HOLES IN THE CODE.

I'm never one to complain about holes getting patched.. but using the playerbase to cheap out on a half decent QA team is cheap. To then ban / punish them for finding holes in the game in the event an incompetent QA team misses something is even more low.

Sure patch it up as quickly as possible. Don't blame the playerbase for jumping on it until thumbs get pulled out of bums and stuff is fixed.

Luckily FDEV haven't done this. My hat off to them. They have fixed and patched many times in the past, but never have blamed the players for a mistake they made. THAT is one thing I admire FDEV for, and cudos to them for it. ED isn't a game that is broken by someone having 35 billion credits.. Infact, it makes not one iota of a difference.

 

[Sinxar]

deleted

 

[Noctover]

Just out of interest, have FD ever officially stated that leaving and entering different game modes/instances to stack multiple missions is an exploit?

 

[Morbad]

Just out of interest, have FD ever officially stated that leaving and entering different game modes/instances to stack multiple missions is an exploit?

They've never come out and condemned it as a cheat, but they have stated it's not how the modes were intended to be used, and it's very obviously a silly, gamist, approach to things.

 

[Punished Mobius]

Again people are going about this wrong. Don't punish them and make the materials even harder to find. If they weren't such a massive pain in the first place people wouldn't do these things. Make them more available through natural gameplay and people will be less inclined to do this nonsense.

 

[Vorxian]

Guys you are calling us out as cheaters that are ruining the game but really I don't think people even realize they are doing it. I mean if it was cheating, why has it been like that since release with no changes?

I didn't realise I was cheating until I had accumulated 34 billion credits... It was only then someone called me out on it.

I honestly thought I was simply 'playing the game'.

(a bit like sleeping your way to the top in real life lol).

My bad... obviously.

 

[Clifra Jones]

I mean apart from all the ones that FD have said themselves are exploits like combat logging

I don't like it either but what would you do about it? How do you determine if they pull out the cable, shut off their router, kill the game or how ever they are dumping themselves out of the game. How do you make the determination between a cable pull and a legitimate network disconnect? I am sure if the penalty was "Boom your ship is destroyed and you get rebuy" you would be very angry if your ISP had a blip and it cost you millions of credits.

Now the credit exploits like stacking. I guess we have to fix them, but there were many more in the past but really, is that fair to the new player when established players are now billionaires because of exploiting "exploits".

I can see fixing a CG that is broken and people figure it out but cutting things out like stacking seems harsh when it has been in game for a while. Would you voluntarily give up a big chunk of credits to "balance" things? Yeah, didn't think so.

I don't know if there are any combat exploits, but of there are then yes, those should be fixed.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Totally agree. It breaks immersion completely. And also makes some missions easier. And I feel a little bit stupid when I am searching for wanted skimmers instead of just spawning them by relogging.

Well you don't have to re=log to get the skimmers to respawn. Just jump into SC, to up into orbital cruise, fly out and back and drop back in. Skimmers will respawn and no you don't feel dirty!

 

[STARB0YY]

Yes frontier, please start banning some serial combat loggers. Combat logging is the by far the biggest problem for anyone who chooses the PvP piracy profession.

 

[Clifra Jones]

My apologies.

My point is in the original reply still. Pip management and the extra two pips provided by multi-crew is the only clear cut chance for a true exploit that I see right now. Frontier may call combat logging an exploit but who does it really provide an advantage over? Not the aggressor, who is the player that needs the exploit to have the advantage, since PvP is the only real place you can have an advantage over another player in this game.

All of the "other" exploits are just people complaining because someone else doesn't play the game the way they think it should be played. Forge our own paths, right?

Combat logging is not an exploit, it is more of an annoyance. It really does not harm anyone. Yes, you may not get that bounty or steal that cargo but that is really no big deal. It really cannot be effectively stopped. Every combat PvP game I play suffers from his and all you can do is embarrassed the perpetrator next time you see them. This is more difficult to do here in Elite as you don't see people as often as in other games.

But I agree with all your other points completely.

 

[Hexcaliber]

You're talking to developers who coded in a built-in exploit into their latest feature - magic afk pips in multi-pew. Literally a pay 2 exploit feature that gives an advantage to those with 2 or more accounts over those with just one.

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Good luck controlling weapons and flying the ship with 2 accounts when weapons and helm are split, where one has no control of the other. Unless you consider sitting with two pc's or alt tabbing between the two an advantage, have fun making that work.

 

[Clifra Jones]

The exploit of cutting ones network connection to combat log clearly avoids the consequence of destruction and the costs associated with said destruction of ship. I'd go as far as to say that its cheating in fairness.

Of course its cheating but how to you fix it? Are you willing to risk a rebuy in the case of your ISP going out? I have had many occasions where contacting FDev servers breaks, does my ship then go BOOM!? What punishment are you willing to accept unintentionally that would potentially stop someone from doing this? Not much I would wager. Yeah, it happens, move on, killing that other player ain't that important in the grand scheme of Elite.

 

[Hexcaliber]

Combat logging is not an exploit, it is more of an annoyance. It really does not harm anyone. Yes, you may not get that bounty or steal that cargo but that is really no big deal. It really cannot be effectively stopped. Every combat PvP game I play suffers from his and all you can do is embarrassed the perpetrator next time you see them. This is more difficult to do here in Elite as you don't see people as often as in other games.

But I agree with all your other points completely.

Combat logging harms anyone trying to pvp, as it prevents them taking part in a perfectly legitimate game mechanic. If someone were able to sit there and at the flick of a switch disconnect players hauling, mining, exploring et al, there would be an uproar.

There was a time the developers stated they would track folks combat logging and asked players to report anyone doing it, and that habitual offenders would face consequences as they consider it "unsportsmanlike like behaviour" their words not mine. While their early determination to deal with folks combat logging seems to have evaporated, they certainly consider it an issue, and it is an issue that still needs to be addressed at some level.

 

[Minonian]

To be clear from the offset, I am not going to list the rather large amount of exploits available in Elite Dangerous, we all know what/where they are, we all know there are countless exploit 'tutorials' on YouTube and the like and we all know they exist.

The following is taken from the SWTOR forums, now, don't get me wrong EA/Bioware has done a lot wrong with SWTOR, it is not half the game it should/could have been and is almost definitely on a downward trend in terms of its direction of travel and player numbers. One thing EA/Bioware have done reasonably well though over the years is dealing with exploits - when they have appeared - and those using them, the following is quoted from the SWTOR forums back in November last year, it is by no means unique in EA/Bioware's approach :-



Source :- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=902135

There have been many, many posts in the past from developers and from those who have exploited and faced subsequent action on the SWTOR forums. Sure, occasionally the ban/rollback hammer has been a little heavy handed from EA/Bioware, but, and it's a big but, everyone knows where they stand should they use, continue to use or abuse exploits in the game. Frontier, many, many horses have already bolted with regards to exploits, I get that, but it is never too late to make a stand, to say 'enough is enough'. Frontier, start rolling back serial exploiters, Frontier, start clamping down on those promoting said exploits, do not be afraid to use the ban hammer either when it is appropriate. Frontier, clean up your game, clean up the image of the game and regain the high ground that you have conceded all too easily.

Aye! count me in.

Anyway is there a change in the game fines and bounties system? After i died there is no lasting bounty and either fine to pay. Or this is just a bug?

 

[Clifra Jones]

Yes frontier, please start banning some serial combat loggers. Combat logging is the by far the biggest problem for anyone who chooses the PvP piracy profession.

And how are they going to know that some Cmdr is a serial combat logger, because you told them? There is no technical way to determine if the payer pulled out the cable and was legitimately just disconnected. Yeah if your in a fight with them you can pretty much guess what they did but how does FDev really determine that?

 

[the100thmonkey]

This is an interesting can of worms you've chosen to open my friend...

Exploit - stuff you have been told not to do
Method - stuff that you have been told is OK to do

I just wanted to put that there as I'll be using the terms and want to make sure readers are clear about what I am talking about. Any exploits in a game will by their very existence be abused by gamer's to gain an advantage no matter how small that may be and so the almost endless battle between developer and exploiter begins. Numerous patches later companies find themselves looking at the ban hammer as a way of resolving what is in essence their mistake. Theirs and their companies QA department plus the play testers - all of them are to blame for not spotting it and sorting it out - This then translates into the player base being castigated for using the software presented to them.

Then there are certain features which although viewed by some as a potential exploit they are in-fact an intended function of the software from a design point - a legitimate game play method.

Frontier have told us that mode swapping is a method and they have no problem with us doing it but I have a serious problem with that. It is nothing more than instance swapping and taking advantage of the server setup Frontier have developed. once you enter a new instance you get a fresh call to the mission's system which then throws you a batch of content. Swap to another instance or mode in this 'method' of using the software and you'll get more content.

In all honesty I cannot see how logging out of the main game to the menu and then re-entering into a different mode, causing a new instance to be created can be called game play. It is nothing more than exploiting the software to give you more. In my eye's this is very lazy and sloppy to of left such a system in place for so long only to then tell us 'No, when we had a design meeting long ago we all agreed that this was the best way to do things and it still is!".

To be clear, I have no personal problem with people doing this, I just refuse to do it myself as I see it as cheap and rather pathetic to log in and out of a game just for virtual credits.

My understanding of FD's attitude on mode-switching for mission stacking is that they don't condone it, but can't stop it since it's impossible for them to predetermine which transaction server a client connects to due to their not controlling the routing or where Amazon sends the connection to manage their servers. In other words, they might not like it but it's not possible to "fix." I don't think FD are going to ban anyone for mode-switching. In my opinion, it's the only internally consistent posture you can take to the "issue."

The simple solution would be to make sure that sufficient missions are available under normal circumstances by upping the number of available missions and reducing their influence and state effects in a sensible manner (interestingly, low, medium and high influence missions have reappeared in 2.3 beta. Make of that what you will.) The credit and data rewards wouldn't need to change as they're largely meaningless right now anyway; they only confer an advantage in that it's easier to buy a second Cutter to fly like a nub in CZs to whinge about shield booster nerfs. You can only fly one ship at a time after all.

 

[Hexcaliber]

And how are they going to know that some Cmdr is a serial combat logger, because you told them? There is no technical way to determine if the payer pulled out the cable and was legitimately just disconnected. Yeah if your in a fight with them you can pretty much guess what they did but how does FDev really determine that?

They do not need to know what happens in a p2p hosted instance to work out who the scumbags are. It is perfectly easy to keep track of players who keep disconnecting then logging back in anytime they enter an instance with another player. Combine that with reports from other players they are combat logging, and you have a pattern of behaviour that is actionable.

Folks may have legitimate reasons for logging out once in a while, but combat loggers do it all the damn time, the muppets are easy to spot as standing out from the norm.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Combat logging harms anyone trying to pvp, as it prevents them taking part in a perfectly legitimate game mechanic. If someone were able to sit there and at the flick of a switch disconnect players hauling, mining, exploring et al, there would be an uproar.

There was a time the developers stated they would track folks combat logging and asked players to report anyone doing it, and that habitual offenders would face consequences as they consider it "unsportsmanlike like behaviour" their words not mine. While their early determination to deal with folks combat logging seems to have evaporated, they certainly consider it an issue, and it is an issue that still needs to be addressed at some level.

Yes, it "harms" your feelings but it does not harm you "in game" as causing you to actually lose something except maybe a bounty or cargo you can't steal. yes is sucks, I agree.

I'll ask it again, exactly how are they going to determine this is actually happening? Taking the word of other players is a road I am sure they do not want to do down. To much risk there. This has never been addressed in ANY PvP combat game I have ever played, ever!

 

[Hexcaliber]

Yes, it "harms" your feelings but it does not harm you "in game" as causing you to actually lose something except maybe a bounty or cargo you can't steal. yes is sucks, I agree.

I'll ask it again, exactly how are they going to determine this is actually happening? Taking the word of other players is a road I am sure they do not want to do down. To much risk there. This has never been addressed in ANY PvP combat game I have ever played, ever!

Multiple online games have banned, or wiped the accounts of continual combat loggers.

You do not take action on the word of one player; combat loggers are habitual, they have patterns of behaviour that are easy to identify over a period of time. You combine that pattern and the reports from multiple players, then you take action.