Ganking / Taranis

[Rat Catcher]

Part of the problem is that ED is presented and marketed as an MMO, it superficially looks like an MMO, but it isn't an MMO. One of those Ms stands for "massively". How many players can we instance with at once?

I was going to suggest that we can get 4 players in an instance reliably, then recalled many issues trying to get a wing (team) of 4 in the same instance...
Yet, on another tack, I think there were 30+ in one of @Buur 's events I joined in with, although it took some 'coaxing' to have the game keep them all instanced.

ED is actually a single- player game with some multi-player features bolted on.

Seems reasonable - I know things were improved in P2P behaviour a couple of years ago, but, no, it isn't really stable multiplayer a lot of the time.

 

[Vlad plus]

I don’t understand the meaning of pvp in this game - by killing a player you don’t get anything, you just both waste time
It’s much more interesting to do ax, at least you can see progress, there is a goal and an idea.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I don’t understand the meaning of pvp in this game

In truth, as far as the game goes, there isn't any...
But...
The PvP players who play each other competitively are amazing in thier flying skill, so pitting themselves against others with similar skills is good gameplay in itself, even if the game gives them nothing for it.

Ganking, however, I'll decline to comment

 

[Vlad plus]

I think that cqc needs to be transferred to the main game, provide a System, stations where those who wish can compete for rewards in the form of materials.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I think that cqc needs to be transferred to the main game, provide a System, stations where those who wish can compete for rewards in the form of materials.

Except it's not needed. There's already plenty of places in the game where organised PvP can happen - outside anarchy stations, within planetary rings, within Lagrange points, right in the middle of community goal systems, and so on. It's not about rewards, it's about playing possibly the best game around when it comes to a physics model for space flight.

Generally speaking, PvPers are also the group that have found every shortcut to farming credits and materials to build a hanger full of G5 ships. The only thing that interests them is the fun part- the actual PvP.

 

[aRJay]

Part of the problem is that ED is presented and marketed as an MMO, it superficially looks like an MMO, but it isn't an MMO. One of those Ms stands for "massively". How many players can we instance with at once?

ED is actually a single- player game with some multi-player features bolted on.

I was thinking about this the other day and I was remembering the first M as massive so thought the label should be MmO as while the game is Massive in terms of play area it isn’t very large in multiplayer terms as we can only instance with a few tens of other players.

But it all comes down to the same thing Elite is it’s own game no matter how marketing types try to shoehorn it into a standard category.

 

[Brrokk]

I was thinking about this the other day and I was remembering the first M as massive so thought the label should be MmO as while the game is Massive in terms of play area it isn’t very large in multiplayer terms as we can only instance with a few tens of other players.

But it all comes down to the same thing Elite is it’s own game no matter how marketing types try to shoehorn it into a standard category.

It really is unique and doesn't have a category. I feel very lucky to have found it, and I suspect that there are other people like me who would enjoy it but probably won't think of trying it. You can't really market a game relying on word-of-mouth these days!

The big attractions for me are the huge, realistic galaxy (and the travel times ensuring that it feels huge), the realism of being "me", located at a station or in a ship and jumping back to the same location at next login, and the early realisation, "Ooo, multi-player, but I can decide who I play with!" Ironically these are all features which other people complain about! We all like different things...

 

[Rat Catcher]

"Ooo, multi-player, but I can decide who I play with!"

These days PG is my preference, but I am slowing down a bit, so it makes sense

Ironically these are all features which other people complain about!

Only if they are not on the invited list!

 

[Pigletslastand]

Personally I think it's a fun challenge to try and complete an objective knowing beforehand there is a specific hurdle to overcome. So for instance;

You know there will be other cmdrs in open
You know that a small group of those cmdrs is likely to be hostile
A subset of those cmdrs are going to be actually dangerous to you personally
Do you have the tools to evade/make a build to escape/not interact with these specific cmdrs? Yes

I fail to see the problem.
Let's break it down one by one.

You are in Open, this is a choice. You already know there are dangers that far outway Solo here. This is how the game was intended to be and is designed specifically for ALL and every type of interaction. So you have first hand knowledge and are making a considered choice of how to play your own game. You know the dangers here. You have options to not interact in this manner. You have Solo and PG. This is YOUR choice and it IS a choice. You have chosen this.

Is there anything you can do about this threat? - Yes. If you still want to play in Open and have the desire to not go boom and lose your stuff can you survive the considerable threat? - Yes. This will require thinking about the threat and acting accordingly. This is a problem to tackle like the Glaive, like mercs showing up when you are mat hunting at an abandoned settlement. Are there ways to protect yourself given to you by the game? - Yes.

1. Build a ship to suit your task - (1. A shield tank to not make it worth the gankers time, 2. The "I'm fast as frick boi" build making it a complete waste of time for a ganker to bother with you ((most gankers know these builds on sight and won't even bother coz of you being a waste of time)) and 3. The fight back PvP adjacent build that means you can stand your ground. There you go, 3 classes of ships which you can now use to complete your task. Not even just 3 builds but 3 CLASSES of build that can get the job done.

2. Know how to escape - Learn what a highwake is, practice it with your friends. If you get pulled in Supercruise, submit immediately. This means you barely have to wait before jumping out again. If you have built a speediboi build you can actually troll a ganker by just leaving him in your dust as your shields regen and talk smack in local chat if that is your thing. Put your pips to shields, this multiplies how strong your shields are. If you are carrying a heatsink, use them! This means the ganker has to rely on sight (a lot of the more skilled variety will still use the Mark 1 eyeball and skill, this doesn't make you invincible, it just helps.

3. Your friends list - You have two options here. If the guy is being an insufferable clown and hunting you down beyond what you deem as a fair challenge there is a block function. Is it available to every cmdr? Yes. Conversely if you still liked the challenge and the person is not an insufferable meathead I would suggest friending them. You can then see if a known ganker is sitting camping a system you are about to enter. Use your head and maybe a few quotes from Sun Tzu here. If there is a group of gankers camping a system you may not be able to access it at that time. Come back later when they've gone. Make friends witth people who hunt gankers. Gang up on them and gank them back if you like.

4. Having a sense of humour and try not taking the game so seriously. This is a big one cos if you die your ego can get hurt, but honestly you chose to be here. No one forced you, so suck it up, have a chuckle if you're able and maybe even throw out a hearty GG or a "You got me you "£7^%*" to the guy who blew you up. You'd be surprised how this can often lead to in game and IRL friendships. There are a tonne of bored PvPers that turn to ganking because they are literally armed to the teeth waiting for a fight and nothing is happening to entertain them so they make their own entertainment and try to hone their skills. Most of them are counterintuitively very helpful and nice people and will offer tips to get better if that is what you want. Some might offer to train you or help you. Not all of them are insufferable. Just know that there are a subset that are the type that conform to the stereotypical Ganker description and are not pleasant to deal with.

In conclusion. You are in Open because you choose to be. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to be there. You know the dangers. Prepare thyself. Is it impossible to complete every task in Open? - No. Do you want to accept those dangers by playing in Open? - That's totally for you to decide.

 

[HRDiagram]

Personally I think it's a fun challenge to try and complete an objective knowing beforehand there is a specific hurdle to overcome. So for instance;

You know there will be other cmdrs in open
You know that a small group of those cmdrs is likely to be hostile
A subset of those cmdrs are going to be actually dangerous to you personally
Do you have the tools to evade/make a build to escape/not interact with these specific cmdrs? Yes

I fail to see the problem.
Let's break it down one by one.

You are in Open, this is a choice. You already know there are dangers that far outway Solo here. This is how the game was intended to be and is designed specifically for ALL and every type of interaction. So you have first hand knowledge and are making a considered choice of how to play your own game. You know the dangers here. You have options to not interact in this manner. You have Solo and PG. This is YOUR choice and it IS a choice. You have chosen this.

Is there anything you can do about this threat? - Yes. If you still want to play in Open and have the desire to not go boom and lose your stuff can you survive the considerable threat? - Yes. This will require thinking about the threat and acting accordingly. This is a problem to tackle like the Glaive, like mercs showing up when you are mat hunting at an abandoned settlement. Are there ways to protect yourself given to you by the game? - Yes.

1. Build a ship to suit your task - (1. A shield tank to not make it worth the gankers time, 2. The "I'm fast as frick boi" build making it a complete waste of time for a ganker to bother with you ((most gankers know these builds on sight and won't even bother coz of you being a waste of time)) and 3. The fight back PvP adjacent build that means you can stand your ground. There you go, 3 classes of ships which you can now use to complete your task. Not even just 3 builds but 3 CLASSES of build that can get the job done.

2. Know how to escape - Learn what a highwake is, practice it with your friends. If you get pulled in Supercruise, submit immediately. This means you barely have to wait before jumping out again. If you have built a speediboi build you can actually troll a ganker by just leaving him in your dust as your shields regen and talk smack in local chat if that is your thing. Put your pips to shields, this multiplies how strong your shields are. If you are carrying a heatsink, use them! This means the ganker has to rely on sight (a lot of the more skilled variety will still use the Mark 1 eyeball and skill, this doesn't make you invincible, it just helps.

3. Your friends list - You have two options here. If the guy is being an insufferable clown and hunting you down beyond what you deem as a fair challenge there is a block function. Is it available to every cmdr? Yes. Conversely if you still liked the challenge and the person is not an insufferable meathead I would suggest friending them. You can then see if a known ganker is sitting camping a system you are about to enter. Use your head and maybe a few quotes from Sun Tzu here. If there is a group of gankers camping a system you may not be able to access it at that time. Come back later when they've gone. Make friends witth people who hunt gankers. Gang up on them and gank them back if you like.

4. Having a sense of humour and try not taking the game so seriously. This is a big one cos if you die your ego can get hurt, but honestly you chose to be here. No one forced you, so suck it up, have a chuckle if you're able and maybe even throw out a hearty GG or a "You got me you "£7^%*" to the guy who blew you up. You'd be surprised how this can often lead to in game and IRL friendships. There are a tonne of bored PvPers that turn to ganking because they are literally armed to the teeth waiting for a fight and nothing is happening to entertain them so they make their own entertainment and try to hone their skills. Most of them are counterintuitively very helpful and nice people and will offer tips to get better if that is what you want. Some might offer to train you or help you. Not all of them are insufferable. Just know that there are a subset that are the type that conform to the stereotypical Ganker description and are not pleasant to deal with.

In conclusion. You are in Open because you choose to be. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to be there. You know the dangers. Prepare thyself. Is it impossible to complete every task in Open? - No. Do you want to accept those dangers by playing in Open? - That's totally for you to decide.

100% this.

 

[Phantom Dancer]

I don’t understand the meaning of pvp in this game - by killing a player you don’t get anything, you just both waste time
It’s much more interesting to do ax, at least you can see progress, there is a goal and an idea.

Exactly my point.

 

[Phantom Dancer]

Personally I think it's a fun challenge to try and complete an objective knowing beforehand there is a specific hurdle to overcome. So for instance;

You know there will be other cmdrs in open
You know that a small group of those cmdrs is likely to be hostile
A subset of those cmdrs are going to be actually dangerous to you personally
Do you have the tools to evade/make a build to escape/not interact with these specific cmdrs? Yes

I fail to see the problem.
Let's break it down one by one.

You are in Open, this is a choice. You already know there are dangers that far outway Solo here. This is how the game was intended to be and is designed specifically for ALL and every type of interaction. So you have first hand knowledge and are making a considered choice of how to play your own game. You know the dangers here. You have options to not interact in this manner. You have Solo and PG. This is YOUR choice and it IS a choice. You have chosen this.

Is there anything you can do about this threat? - Yes. If you still want to play in Open and have the desire to not go boom and lose your stuff can you survive the considerable threat? - Yes. This will require thinking about the threat and acting accordingly. This is a problem to tackle like the Glaive, like mercs showing up when you are mat hunting at an abandoned settlement. Are there ways to protect yourself given to you by the game? - Yes.

1. Build a ship to suit your task - (1. A shield tank to not make it worth the gankers time, 2. The "I'm fast as frick boi" build making it a complete waste of time for a ganker to bother with you ((most gankers know these builds on sight and won't even bother coz of you being a waste of time)) and 3. The fight back PvP adjacent build that means you can stand your ground. There you go, 3 classes of ships which you can now use to complete your task. Not even just 3 builds but 3 CLASSES of build that can get the job done.

2. Know how to escape - Learn what a highwake is, practice it with your friends. If you get pulled in Supercruise, submit immediately. This means you barely have to wait before jumping out again. If you have built a speediboi build you can actually troll a ganker by just leaving him in your dust as your shields regen and talk smack in local chat if that is your thing. Put your pips to shields, this multiplies how strong your shields are. If you are carrying a heatsink, use them! This means the ganker has to rely on sight (a lot of the more skilled variety will still use the Mark 1 eyeball and skill, this doesn't make you invincible, it just helps.

3. Your friends list - You have two options here. If the guy is being an insufferable clown and hunting you down beyond what you deem as a fair challenge there is a block function. Is it available to every cmdr? Yes. Conversely if you still liked the challenge and the person is not an insufferable meathead I would suggest friending them. You can then see if a known ganker is sitting camping a system you are about to enter. Use your head and maybe a few quotes from Sun Tzu here. If there is a group of gankers camping a system you may not be able to access it at that time. Come back later when they've gone. Make friends witth people who hunt gankers. Gang up on them and gank them back if you like.

4. Having a sense of humour and try not taking the game so seriously. This is a big one cos if you die your ego can get hurt, but honestly you chose to be here. No one forced you, so suck it up, have a chuckle if you're able and maybe even throw out a hearty GG or a "You got me you "£7^%*" to the guy who blew you up. You'd be surprised how this can often lead to in game and IRL friendships. There are a tonne of bored PvPers that turn to ganking because they are literally armed to the teeth waiting for a fight and nothing is happening to entertain them so they make their own entertainment and try to hone their skills. Most of them are counterintuitively very helpful and nice people and will offer tips to get better if that is what you want. Some might offer to train you or help you. Not all of them are insufferable. Just know that there are a subset that are the type that conform to the stereotypical Ganker description and are not pleasant to deal with.

In conclusion. You are in Open because you choose to be. No one has a gun to your head forcing you to be there. You know the dangers. Prepare thyself. Is it impossible to complete every task in Open? - No. Do you want to accept those dangers by playing in Open? - That's totally for you to decide.

Very thoughtful, ty for your input.

 

[Kaocraft]

I'd like to share a few interactions related to Taranis (Open).

1. As a purely solo pilot, you'll always be at a disadvantage. People come in a squad, a Corvette takes care of the Goids, a smaller ship scoopes the drives, and the third ship ganks competitors. That's fine, it's gameplay.
2. Piracy in delivery system is fun.
3. Getting ganked at 10 percent HP in Taranis is not fun.
4. Getting ganked in Taranis AT ALL is not fun, since most ships that go in there don't have PvP capability. And once you jump on your PvP ship to gank the gankers, what do they do? They combat log. What sad times we live in.
5. Old discussion of how ganking pushes people into Solo.

Cheers, and o7

I do think it's pretty lame (and very low hanging fruit tbh) to sit in the Titan cloud and pick off CMDRs, but it's a known part of human nature that people will stoop to absolutely any level to be noticed by someone else for any amount of time for any reason; so it sure is going to happen.

You, OP, are proposing that this chases people into Solo; and some of the other posters' advice seems to align with this: they're basically calling you stupid for playing in Open. Well I don't really agree, but I get the frustration.

I was ganked a bunch of times in the Tiranis cloud. There's nothing you can really do about it but block those people after they blow you up. Thankfully there aren't a ton of people doing this, so yeah you might get ganked once per session, but usually after you block that person you're fine. And unlike a lot of other situations I'm kind of expecting to die pretty frequently in the Titan cloud anyway, so it's not a huge deal.

Personally, for me; the increased range of possibilities xgood, bad, or just amusing; is worth the unpredictable risks of playing in Open. I am much more inclined to "retreat" into Solo or Private due to terrible netcode and instancing issues (which the titans have in SPADES btw), than the threat of other CMDRs.

The Open experience at Taranis was cool, albeit obnoxious because the GAME doesn't actually work properly in multiplayer, so only one person was allowed to bomb the vents at a time in order to prevent the instance from breaking - people were really good about collectively self-organizing around this game breaking bug; though. It was an entire instance of spontaneous cooperation not just in gameplay but in counterintuitive workarounds for a broken game.

Incidentally, the instancing bug provides a justification and incentive for PVP ganking: anyone other than the assigned vent bomber NEEDS to stop launching nanite torpedoes and if they don't respond to messages, then yes: blowing them up is fantastic for everyone. I don't think this was the motivation of the gankers in my instance, although who knows? Like most people, I arrived at Tiranis expecting the game to work properly, and had to be told by other CMDRs NOT to do the one specific thing I had outfitted my ship to do.

I was also interdicted + attacked immediately on my way in a few times. The interdictions are easier to deal with since it's just a 1 on 1 dogfight. Not sure how many other people do this, but: you don't have to just straight line boost away from your ganker.

In PVP I have not had this work most of the time; they usually have no trouble keeping up and in most builds they will destroy you and even if they don't, by the time your FSD cools down and charges up again, it'll be enough damage to your ship that it wrecks your trip to the Titan Cloud.

Instead, I "dogfight" with the PvPer, participating in their turning battle and in general trying to stay on their tail or at least out of their sights. I keep my harpoints retracted and I just keep circling behind them while the FSD cools down and then charges up for the jump. Yes the FSD takes longer to charge due to the mass inhibition factor, but it doesn't really matter. I've been consistently surprised at how bad most gankers are at keeping an evasive target in their sights. Even with an under specced ship, you usually have the advantage here since you do not need to get any time on target; all you have to focus on is being behind them at all times.

Anyway, most of the time that I was at Taranis there were other PvPers who had self-organized around chasing gankers out of the system; they'd message me and o7 on their way in, and ask for names of any CMDRs who I've observed ganking/interdicting, so idunno all in all I think the totality of the experience around Taranis was made more interesting and fun by playing in Open, and my only true deep complaint about Open (and for the most part Private as well), is that there is so much of the game which is simply broken when multiple players are in the same instance. It's lame and sad that this mandatory online game can't handle the most basic multiplayer functionality that it is ostensibly designed around, especially at this truly advanced stage in the game's lifecycle, but here we are.

TL,DR: The worst part of Open play is not the gankers it is the broken netcode.

 

[Pigletslastand]

My Pleasure! I'd also add that those that do PvP very much do get a lot from it.

There are 4 classes of PvPer.

1. Those who PvP and enjoy the fight with equal and likeminded cmdrs. You could liken this to anyone who enjoys skilled combat. There are thousands of games on the internet where this is the sole reason for the game. Dedication to it brings personal satisfaction and the thrill of the fight. A fight for survival and bragging rights. Enormous numbers of games on the net are based solely on this and Elite has this included in it's elements.

2. Roleplayers who have their own personal reason for doing what they do, they may be fighting for a faction, they may decide the Thargoids are their own personal Lord and Saviour and want to protect them at all costs and actually roleplay blowing up humans (the third and fourth group often masquerade as this and it's impossible to police as you will never know a persons true motivation)

3. Gankers and players who have no moral qualms about blowing people up. This player just likes to watch ship go boom. It's all pixels, they might be bored, they might be doing it for the lols, they might be trying to keep their skills sharp, they might like the thrill of the hunt. Either way they are doing what they want to do and no one is gonna stop them. However some of them are actually doing it for a reason. They may have personal or in game vendettas. They may feel attacked themselves and are trying to assert control through meme videos. In this way they are more akin to the second group. Often there is respect to be earned amongst their peers in being funny or edge lordy so they still exist in a world where there is a reason for what they do. They may be doing it to highlight how a mechanic is broken and needs attention. Often it is done in a response to what they perceive as a bad move from FDEV.

4. Lastly the Salt farmers, these are only out to annoy people and will be purposefully doing it to get a reaction. They have something wrong inside them as they enjoy the suffering and exasperation of the others.

This is my own personal take on it and I'm sure some in the PvP community will disagree with me. I can accept the first 3, I have no time for the 4th kind. Again this is a personal take and everyone can do what they want in game as long as it conforms to TOS.

Edit: this was in response to @Phantom Dancer post that no one gets anything from PvP. I'd just like to clarify that each group get something from PvP. Even the fourth kind, which I personally dislike. They all get something from it and there is always a reason that they do it. Even if you don't agree personally with the reason.

 

[Kaocraft]

I don’t understand the meaning of pvp in this game - by killing a player you don’t get anything, you just both waste time
It’s much more interesting to do ax, at least you can see progress, there is a goal and an idea.

This game's lack of structure or coherent progression is continually defended on the basis that you have to make your own fun and set your own goals and use your own imagination to come up with reasons to do any of the activities in the game. It's ALL a waste of time. PvP, including just plain old salt mining PvP; is as valid a choice for how to play the game as any other. It's all pointless, it all leads nowhere, it's all meaningless; and not just from the standpoint of "all videogames are a waste of time," either: Elite is a particularly aimless, pointless, meaningless game; much moreso than the majority of games out there. It is the quintessential sandbox. The only joys it offers are in the direct engagement with the play mechanics, the aesthetics, and whatever self-created roleplay you come up with for yourself. PvP in general, and ganking in particular, are a natural outgrowth of this kind of game design.

 

[SlickPBW]

I'm a self-confessed ganker.

Got it.

But I've mended my ways,

Right. I don’t believe you.


I have blocked you. Have a nice day.

 

[jackwall]

Personally I think it's a fun challenge to try and complete an objective knowing beforehand there is a specific hurdle to overcome. So for instance;

You know there will be other cmdrs in open
You know that a small group of those cmdrs is likely to be hostile
A subset of those cmdrs are going to be actually dangerous to you personally
Do you have the tools to evade/make a build to escape/not interact with these specific cmdrs? Yes

I fail to see the problem.
Let's break it down one by one.

You are in Open, this is a choice. ........................

Cheers fella. Well worth the read!

S!

 

[Schmack]

This game is one of the most multiplayer friendly multiplayer games out there. Other games I play, I would never venture into a multiplayer setting due to the toxic nature of who is playing, how the audio comes across and the fact game developers cater to these folks with clown gear and other aspects that don't reflect the desire for any realism in the game.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Piracy in delivery system is fun.

I believe we robbed a few GGs!

 

[Rebel Yell]

My wording was incorrect. I meant I'm not in a squad, or ever will be. I also don't group. So, to put it correctly, I'm a purely-flying CMDR in Open. Sorry for the misleading wording.

Kudos! Don't trust anyone here saying solo/PG modes are better.

Trust me.