Grinding isn't the player's fault

[TheMegaTurnip]

Here’s the thing from my point of view: Why would Frontier “respect” your time, when you clearly don’t respect your own? Every time someone claims they spend over 90% of their time grinding at this game so they can have fun, I can’t help but think, “Do you have so much free time that you’d waste it on something you don’t enjoy?”

I certainly don’t. My free time is precious to me, precisely because I have so little of it these days. I’m not about to waste it on something that I don’t enjoy. And yet, here I am, playing Elite: Dangerous.

Why? Because I feel that Frontier that not only respects my time, they also respect my intelligence. There’s plenty of room in this game to improve your efficiency at getting the things you want in this game, by developing your skills at the game. Which is ultimately what I bought this game for in the first place.

You missunderstand. I do enjoy many aspects of the game, but i don't feel like systems specifically designed to be time sinks have any place in a playble game.

Maybe my age makes me expect a lot more from developers, but time sink padding, like C&P for example, are not conducive to good gameplay.

 

[galahad2069]

That's not me misrepresenting what you said, that's you inventing a fictitious number out of thin air.

The context was the following:

The decision to try to repeatedly run through the wall instead of walking around the corner to the door however is definitely down to the players.

To which I replied that if you had to do the same boring thing 100 times, then it wouldn't matter whether you did it once or 50 times a day, the grind would be the same (100 repetitions total).

The out-of-thin-air number (100) was only an example. Just like the 'wall' and the 'corner' in your metaphor. I could have written 75, 25, 250 or anything like that, that wouldn't have changed anything important in the context.

Guardian base scanning was merely an example of an 'utterly boring thing' which has to be done multiple times, not an example of something that has to be done exactly 100 times. But it was pretty obvious all along, I think.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

The context was the following:



To which I replied that if you had to do the same boring thing 100 times, then it wouldn't matter whether you did it once or 50 times a day, the grind would be the same (100 repetitions total).

The out-of-thin-air number (100) was only an example. Just like the 'wall' and the 'corner' in your metaphor. I could have written 75, 25, 250 or anything like that, that wouldn't have changed anything important in the context.

Guardian base scanning was merely an example of an 'utterly boring thing' which has to be done multiple times, not an example of something that has to be done exactly 100 times. But it was pretty obvious all along, I think.

A good example too, though one that actually did get a fix (somewhat)

 

[CariadocThorne]

But there are too many things left half done and half polished. I might have higher expectations for games being younger, but to me it's really not acceptable to have programmed a game that intentionally trolls its player base with convoluted systems and buggy gameplay.

I think we all agree on this.

Also it's really not fair on your player base to expect them to devote the kind of time serious progression in this game takes. It's simply too much. People hae lives and jobs and families, they want to play a game yeah, but not feel like they miss out on so much of it due to time constraints.

This is where the disagreement lies.

If this game locked away content so that progression was required to access it, no discussion would be needed.

However, ED doesn't do that, so FDev aren't expecting you to do that.

If anything, the complete absence of any attempt by them to ease the grind significantly could be seen as a hint that progression grinding is not an intended or supported playstyle. They won't try to stop you doing it, but they don't want to promote it either.

 

[Stigbob]

Yeah i get where you're coing from, albeit im only a youngster by comparison to most in here but even i wanted a good space game for most of my youth.
The game is a great project.

But there are too many things left half done and half polished. I might have higher expectations for games being younger, but to me it's really not acceptable to have programmed a game that intentionally trolls its player base with convoluted systems and buggy gameplay.

Also it's really not fair on your player base to expect them to devote the kind of time serious progression in this game takes. It's simply too much. People hae lives and jobs and families, they want to play a game yeah, but not feel like they miss out on so much of it due to time constraints.

That stuff should have been left in Alpha.

It's a great game yes, but there are vast swarths of it that would NEVER make it through quality control for most companies bar valve (Who seem not to have any at all).

Mostly i complain on here in hope that one of them reads it an goes, "alright, maybe these hundreds of guys have a point" and start to make serious efforts to fix it. It could be one of the greatest games ever to have been made, but its a long way off that yet IMO. It needs the TLC it's had stolen from it for the past 2 years by Jurrassic Bork.

I like that it's different, the generic samey rubbish most companies chuck out just passes me by completely. I very rarely buy any games that haven't been out three or four years already, I made an exception for ED. Some of the things like lack of being led by the hand is something games have lost to their detriment.

I play ED maybe five (ish) hours a week, but since 2014 so I've got all the stuff. The big endgame ships are boring medium ships are best you don't really need any of the big three, and you can get an anaconda in a few weeks anyway now (it used to be a lot harder). Faster if you jump on the cash bonanza's.

I wouldn't worry about other FDEV products, the more there are the better for FDEV therefore the better for ED and it's players.

The context was the following:

To which I replied that if you had to do the same boring thing 100 times, then it wouldn't matter whether you did it once or 50 times a day, the grind would be the same (100 repetitions total).

The out-of-thin-air number (100) was only an example. Just like the 'wall' and the 'corner' in your metaphor. I could have written 75, 25, 250 or anything like that, that wouldn't have changed anything important in the context.

Guardian base scanning was merely an example of an 'utterly boring thing' which has to be done multiple times, not an example of something that has to be done exactly 100 times. But it was pretty obvious all along, I think.

It was exaggeration of the issue. I like the guardian stuff it makes a change from the bubble.

 

[Darkfyre99]

You missunderstand. I do enjoy many aspects of the game, but i don't feel like systems specifically designed to be time sinks have any place in a playble game.

Maybe my age makes me expect a lot more from developers, but time sink padding, like C&P for example, are not conducive to good gameplay.

Maybe it's my age, but I have a hard time seeing how anything as weak as the current iteration of C&P, where a tiny bit of pre-planning allows you to completely evade the consequences of a crime spree, could possibly be called a "time sink." It's not like the game is completely unplayable at notoriety 10, especially if you have a clean ship waiting for you at the nearest pirate haven. And it's certainly not the case where you have to wait for your notoriety to empty before you can commit another crime.

Yes, you can choose to simply sit at the dock for ten hours and wait for your notoriety to decay to zero, so you can pay off your bounties at a factor and get a clean ship back. But you can also choose to leave a ship hot, and do other things while waiting for your notoriety to decay. Of you can choose to continue playing with a maxed out notoriety AND a hot ship, and enjoy learning how to evade the consequences... or even take advantage of them.

That's what I like about this game, there are almost always options to choose from. And when there isn't... well... this game is still being developed, with new game mechanics being added, and new worlds to explore. If there truly isn't an option now, it may come in the future. Why put your nose to the grindstone today, when there may be a far better, and much more fun, way tomorrow?

 

[trigun539]

I just feel sad for ED players... sitting around in a ship for 70-80% of their time with absolutely nothing else to do. In addition to this, every other action other than combat is exactly the same. Quite sad that there are players with such low self esteem that don’t value their time. I encourage the players who defend the grind to not conform to such bad gameplay and push devs a bit more. It’ll improve your time and everyone else’s.

 

[Tarman]

I just feel sad for ED players... sitting around in a ship for 70-80% of their time with absolutely nothing else to do. In addition to this, every other action other than combat is exactly the same. Quite sad that there are players with such low self esteem that don’t value their time. I encourage the players who defend the grind to not conform to such bad gameplay and push devs a bit more. It’ll improve your time and everyone else’s.

I like how you're dismissive and insulting, while at the same time using that as a rally cry, like any of that creates better coding.

 

[Eymerich]

I like how you're dismissive and insulting, while at the same time using that as a rally cry, like any of that creates better coding.

He is basically right.

 

[Stigbob]

I just feel sad for ED players... sitting around in a ship for 70-80% of their time with absolutely nothing else to do. In addition to this, every other action other than combat is exactly the same. Quite sad that there are players with such low self esteem that don’t value their time. I encourage the players who defend the grind to not conform to such bad gameplay and push devs a bit more. It’ll improve your time and everyone else’s.

It's OK for people to enjoy playing the video game.

 

[peteuplink]

I have a question.

I see a lot of people saying that grind is a choice and it's up to the player if they want to grind or not, but how do you play this thing if you don't grind? Traditionally the gameplay of Elite has always been to gain Elite status and upgrade your ship or buy a new one, and the only way you can do that is by making money. The only way to make money, as far as I can see, is to grind for it... Unless I'm missing some super secret gameplay mechanics?

 

[Tarman]

He is basically right.

Pretty sure us yelling even more isn't going to make the game any better.

 

[Stigbob]

I have a question.

I see a lot of people saying that grind is a choice and it's up to the player if they want to grind or not, but how do you play this thing if you don't grind? Traditionally the gameplay of Elite has always been to gain Elite status and upgrade your ship or buy a new one, and the only way you can do that is by making money. The only way to make money, as far as I can see, is to grind for it... Unless I'm missing some super secret gameplay mechanics?

Take missions you enjoy doing, or follow the trade you enjoy doing in a ship you enjoy flying with a weapon loadout you enjoy using. If it feels samey do something else you enjoy.

I make money without trying.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Maybe it's my age, but I have a hard time seeing how anything as weak as the current iteration of C&P, where a tiny bit of pre-planning allows you to completely evade the consequences of a crime spree, could possibly be called a "time sink." It's not like the game is completely unplayable at notoriety 10, especially if you have a clean ship waiting for you at the nearest pirate haven. And it's certainly not the case where you have to wait for your notoriety to empty before you can commit another crime.

Yes, you can choose to simply sit at the dock for ten hours and wait for your notoriety to decay to zero, so you can pay off your bounties at a factor and get a clean ship back. But you can also choose to leave a ship hot, and do other things while waiting for your notoriety to decay. Of you can choose to continue playing with a maxed out notoriety AND a hot ship, and enjoy learning how to evade the consequences... or even take advantage of them.

That's what I like about this game, there are almost always options to choose from. And when there isn't... well... this game is still being developed, with new game mechanics being added, and new worlds to explore. If there truly isn't an option now, it may come in the future. Why put your nose to the grindstone today, when there may be a far better, and much more fun, way tomorrow?

Yeah it is.


And that last scentence encapsulates my problems with FDev down to a T. There could be better, more fun faster ways to do stuff..

But there isn't.

He is basically right.

No basically about it. He's 100% right.

 

[Stigbob]

No basically about it. He's 100% right.

To be brutal he seems spiteful about other people having fun.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I just feel sad for ED players... sitting around in a ship for 70-80% of their time with absolutely nothing else to do. In addition to this, every other action other than combat is exactly the same. Quite sad that there are players with such low self esteem that don’t value their time. I encourage the players who defend the grind to not conform to such bad gameplay and push devs a bit more. It’ll improve your time and everyone else’s.

Thank you for your concern and passive aggresive tone, but my enjoyment of ED has nothing to do with my self esteem and I personally do not care that you don't like ED. Stop try to change it and accept it. Stop attacking people who enjoy it. Why you would even do so? Go on with your life.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Yeah it is.


And that last scentence encapsulates my problems with FDev down to a T. There could be better, more fun faster ways to do stuff..

But there isn't.



No basically about it. He's 100% right.

There can always be more options in your open world game. They always feel incomplete due of their nature.

Secret of playing them is to enjoy them for what they are not for what they are not.

 

[Devari]

I like how you're dismissive and insulting, while at the same time using that as a rally cry, like any of that creates better coding.

His point however is quite valid that much of the Elite playerbase has come to accept such a low quality standard for gameplay from FD. That is rather sad to be honest and this is from someone who now has 2500 hours into the game so far.

That situation is really a consequence of the well-recognized operant conditioning aspects of Elite game design and the over-reliance on grind and RNG. It has absolutely nothing to do with a gamer's "self esteem", that part of the statement was utter nonsense of course, but the point about not holding FD to a higher standard was rather valid.

 

[CariadocThorne]

I just feel sad for ED players... sitting around in a ship for 70-80% of their time with absolutely nothing else to do. In addition to this, every other action other than combat is exactly the same. Quite sad that there are players with such low self esteem that don’t value their time. I encourage the players who defend the grind to not conform to such bad gameplay and push devs a bit more. It’ll improve your time and everyone else’s.

I feel sorry for those players too.

If they would just give up their insistence on grinding towards goals which won't help them enjoy the game, and instead actually go out and play the game.... Sadly, when we try to explain this, they tell us the game forces them to do it, or they just insult us.

 

[peteuplink]

Take missions you enjoy doing, or follow the trade you enjoy doing in a ship you enjoy flying with a weapon loadout you enjoy using. If it feels samey do something else you enjoy.

I make money without trying.

But it's still just grind. All you're doing is repeating one action until you get bored and replacing that with another action until you get bored... So there isn't really any other way to play the game.

SO it's not the players who are at fault for grinding, it's the game design that's at fault from being such a grind.