Grinding isn't the player's fault

[CariadocThorne]

So the game needs players to survive, locking them out of the fun content with hundreds of hours of uninspired and dull repeating loops is not conducive to keeping the player base.

This is the key point.

The game doesn't lock players out of ANY content. You do not need to grind to do anything. There is no end-game content. You are treating ED as if it were ESO or WoW, where you have to grind to the level cap and to get "end-game" quality gear before you can do the end-game raids, dungeons, PvP, whatever.

ED does not work like that.

Every single thing you can do in a G5 Corvette, you can do in a barely engineered sidewinder. Soloing Thargoids is literally the only thing in the entire game which you probably can't do in a small ship, but even then you can do it in a small ship as part of a wing.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Except you don't have to do ANY of that stuff.

You choose to.

I don't grind. Maybe around 25 hours grinding out of over 2000 hours playing. Yet I have never run out of rebuy cash, or even felt that doing so was a remote possibility. And I've paid out for a lot of rebuys. I also have a fully G5 engineered Krait (was a Python until recently).

What do you even mean by "competitive"?

Because there is not competition in 90% of the game, so it doesn't matter if somebody elses ship is half a percent more efficient at something than yours is.

If you are talking about ranking highly for CG's, then you are literally complaining that you have to grind to be able to grind harder. That is 100% on you.

If you are talking about PvP, then no you don't. player skill makes 80% of the difference, not ship. A good player in a small ship will beat a bad player in a corvette. You can PvP effectively in a Viper with G3 engineering if you are good, and in a courier or Vulture even if you aren't the best pilot around. Sure, you won'y win every fight, but you won't in a Corvette either

Ok no, you dont have to, you can sit in the sidey for ten thousaaaaaaaand hours and do everything right?

Get a grip. People want progression in games. Not vapid dull grindwalls blocking them from accesing the things they want. Thats a fucdamental design flaw in ED. If the gameplay loops were rewarding and varies, it wouldnt be called a GRIND continuously.

And yes, competative, in BGS or PvP, you need an engineered ship. And dont talk to me about pilot skill if you please. I pretty much exculsively fly vipers. I am more than aware tyvm.

The issue is the repeating and boring nature of the content, the game enforces it everytime you try to look at progressing, "oh i want a new ship" Well either just play and wait 6 months, or go do something that bores you half to death.

I seriousy cannot beleive that the player base actualy tries to justify such appauling game design as "only a grind if you make it one"

Seriously, I think this game addles the brains of it's long term players.

I've played a LOT of long winded games. Never once have i felt like a game takes the p*ss out of its player base like ED does.

I'm still here because I like the flight model and FDev can BLATANTY do better with it. They just seem to need a few memebers of the community to actually speak out about the actual issues. As opposed to constantly debating the PVPvsPVE t*rdburglar's argument.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

If it wasnt a grindy game, and didnt lock you out of content.

You would get ten posts a week about how much B* the grind provides.

Js.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Ok no, you dont have to, you can sit in the sidey for ten thousaaaaaaaand hours and do everything right?

If you have fun in Sidewinder, why not?

Get a grip. People want progression in games. Not vapid dull grindwalls blocking them from accesing the things they want. Thats a fucdamental design flaw in ED. If the gameplay loops were rewarding and varies, it wouldnt be called a GRIND continuously.

Some people want that yes. And some people want end game content without any investment on their side. Sorry, again, not that type of game.

And yes, competative, in BGS or PvP, you need an engineered ship. And dont talk to me about pilot skill if you please. I pretty much exculsively fly vipers. I am more than aware tyvm.

No, you need to engineered ship because you obsess with min maxing. That's subjective approach on solving problems and very familiar in gaming circles. I supported ED exactly to get away from that kind of approach.

The issue is the repeating and boring nature of the content, the game enforces it everytime you try to look at progressing, "oh i want a new ship" Well either just play and wait 6 months, or go do something that bores you half to death.

Because you see rest of game besides ships just a padding. We see it as a game. That's difference.

I seriousy cannot beleive that the player base actualy tries to justify such appauling game design as "only a grind if you make it one"

Seriously, I think this game addles the brains of it's long term players.

Ohhh, so those other players are 'bad', or 'damaged' now.

 

[galahad2069]

You don't need to do the same thing there are alternatives and none of it is compulsory. The guardian stuff is less use for min-maxers than standard engineered gear so I don't see why they'd bother. None of it requires 100 repetitions either.

It funny you are talking about the 'guardian stuff' and 'alternative ways to get something' in the same paragraph. Guardian weapons are the perfect example of something that you can unlock in one way only (which is also the perfect example of a repetitive, grindy activity at the same time). There are no alternatives at all.

The exact number of repetitions required for the unlock is not important. Having to scan a base once is okay. Any number greater than 1 is a bad game design. Simple as that.

The fact that the Guardian weapz are just ordinary equipment and not some uber meta stuff is not that important either. A frag cannon, for instance, is not that different from a plasma accelerator (both of them are cool things in their own way), but why wouldn't you want to try one of them?

A great many things in the game are locked behind grind walls without any alternatives. And many of these things are much more important than the Guardian stuff, like Palin's dirty drives which you cannot lay your hands on unless you've stared at a loading screen way too many times, or the armour mods which you won't get until you've mined an awful lot of canisters of ore.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

No, you need to engineered ship because you obsess with min maxing. That's subjective approach on solving problems and very familiar in gaming circles. I supported ED exactly to get away from that kind of approach.



Because you see rest of game besides ships just a padding. We see it as a game. That's difference.



Ohhh, so those other players are 'bad', or 'damaged' now.

Righto, lets dance.

If you don't like min-mxing, maybe its not the game for you hmm?

No there is a difference bettween content and progression and grind, how is this so hard to see?

Use the ES games as an example. You cant get endgame gear at the start, but at NO point does that game make you feel like you can't do things other than kill certain tough beasties. No point in those games, are you thirsting for something better than you have, it just happens as you play. Literally never once have I been level grinding in those games because the content that leads to progression is varies and involves detailed gameplay loops. (it's not the same form of game, yes i am aware, but those aspects can be broadly applied).

That is not the case with ED, you actually have to devote yourself to overly specific things to progress instead of just playing the game.

A new player in ED doesn't get even the slightest infomation bar that provided by the training missions. It might seems easy to us to accumilate stuff now after ages of play, but that is not the case for players starting out, or indeed those who have'nt reached the endgame state. How many third party sites does this game require? It activey demands you spend EVEN more time off the game looking at websites because the infomation needed is not present anywhere in game. More grind additions.

I'd rather have challenging gameplay loops that reqiure skill and thinking about as opposed to ED's idea of "missions" which are for the most part so easy as to not require any real input, fly here deliver this, fly here kill this stupid NPC who wont even shoot back oods are. Hnece why people think its a grind and it's vapid.

No variation, and no difficulty past the initial 150hours aside from accumilating money/mats/ships.

Even the wing assasination mission can be solo'd in a ship with no shields AND kill every target.

Do one, you've done them all. That is not fun engaging content.

Hence why I pretty much do nothing but PvP. It's the only suitibly challenging part of the game at this point. And to even do that. Yup, you guessed it, more grind on planets, USS' and shooting rocks/watching limpets. Oh joy.

Well it seems like those who have been here the longest don't seem to understand the definition of grind.

Y'all have adapted to it. Nothing wrong with that. But thats not how players who have'nt been playing for years are going to feel. That in and of itself harms online games.

Like i've said, competition for the modern gamers attention is hot. FDev are gonna have to pull some pretty special stuff to keep thier player base interested over then next 5 years of thier "plan".

 

[galahad2069]

No, you need to engineered ship because you obsess with min maxing

Wrong. It has nothing to do with obsession of any kind.

You need an engineered ship because otherwise you'll get blown up by your opponent who has an engineered ship, that's why.

 

[Stigbob]

It funny you are talking about the 'guardian stuff' and 'alternative ways to get something' in the same paragraph. Guardian weapons are the perfect example of something that you can unlock in one way only (which is also the perfect example of a repetitive, grindy activity at the same time). There are no alternatives at all.

The exact number of repetitions required for the unlock is not important. Having to scan a base once is okay. Any number greater than 1 is a bad game design. Simple as that.

The fact that the Guardian weapz are just ordinary equipment and not some uber meta stuff is not that important either. A frag cannon, for instance, is not that different from a plasma accelerator (both of them are cool things in their own way), but why wouldn't you want to try one of them?

A great many things in the game are locked behind grind walls without any alternatives. And many of these things are much more important than the Guardian stuff, like Palin's dirty drives which you cannot lay your hands on unless you've stared at a loading screen way too many times, or the armour mods which you won't get until you've mined an awful lot of canisters of ore.

So you agree your claim of 100 repetitions was way off, that's progress at least.

Most people unlock Palin by having done some exploration, fly out and then back in a straight line is the sort of self inflicted boredom grinders excel at then complain about. Then get miffed when other people ask why the hell they did it and say it's no wonder they are bored.

 

[Sylveria]

Like i've said, competition for the modern gamers attention is hot. FDev are gonna have to pull some pretty special stuff to keep thier player base interested over then next 5 years of thier "plan".

Calling the bluff here. People who are interested will buy it, and those who aren't won't.

Again- this isn't a subscription-only game, it's a buy to play game. And it's not a multiplayer-only game, either.

 

[CariadocThorne]

Get a grip. People want progression in games. Not vapid dull grindwalls blocking them from accesing the things they want. Thats a fucdamental design flaw in ED.

SOME people want progression in a game. There are literally hundreds of games out there designed for people who want that.

ED is not one of them.

If you buy a game not designed around end-game progression, when you want end-game progression, that is your fault, not the developers fault.

This is literally the equivalent of me buying GTA because it has cars in it, then getting angry because it isn't a racing game.

 

[galahad2069]

So you agree your claim of 100 repetitions was way off, that's progress at least.

Most people unlock Palin by having done some exploration, fly out and then back in a straight line is the sort of self inflicted boredom grinders excel at then complain about. Then get miffed when other people ask why the hell they did it and say it's no wonder they are bored.

The discussion wasn't and isn't about the exact number of times you have to repeat the guardian base scanning nonsense in order to get a few simple modules. Is it >1? Well, yes, significantly so. Too much, tyvm.

Exploration in ED is just boring as hell, no matter whether or not you are going in a straight line. Too many loading screens with practically nothing to do in between, let alone something requiring some skill of any kind. And once you've seen a G type star you've seen them all.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

SOME people want progression in a game. There are literally hundreds of games out there designed for people who want that.

ED is not one of them.

If you buy a game not designed around end-game progression, when you want end-game progression, that is your fault, not the developers fault.

This is literally the equivalent of me buying GTA because it has cars in it, then getting angry because it isn't a racing game.

progression doesnt mean instant endgame stuff? Why is this so hard to stomach? Progression could entail being paid more money as you rank up thorugh the trade ranks (Dont tell me we do, it's so bleddy variable that it cant ever be said to be objectively better at any point), get decent and wrthwhile material rewards, stuff like that. Stuff that helps you move on with your experience, not just tiny little droplets that might help after a few hundred hours.

So whats the deal then? What kind of progress are you supposed to make? Just not bother and stay in the winder? ED's progression is in the ships at the moment. The missions don't yield anything remotely helpful in any usable quantity. Not unless you stack 21 and go do them all. How many hours for no progress?

Every game needs progression, or you end up with a 1 dimensional boring sandpit. Ahaha, irony right?

Yeah nooo... Sylveria, we are one year off the next gen of consoles. Which typically means new strides in gaming technology and engines, considering that half the player base for this game is distributed between both consoles, I'd safely say, a very large portion will go when FO76 and Red Dead2 come out. In fact, it's pretty much guaranteed.

Hell I know it's 99% gonna be vapourware. But IF Star Citizen gets an actual on disk release, I can't see ED being all that popular.

The industry is very competative, VERY, to maintain a player base, you have to actually listen to them in a game like this. Do they?

No.

So it'll most likely be dead in less than two years. Unless they start to listen to thier communities. Which for the most part, much like myself, would like actual engaging stuff to do, not just the same repeated GLITCHY loops.

Like how many have complained about Piracy being pointless over the years? Has there been even a slight word about fixes? No.

90% of the PvPers would be pirates if FDev fixed the PP issues and combat logging. But nope, FDev refuses to fix it, and therefore as a direct result, we have gank squads flying baou just looking for easy kills, and the community hates each other over it. Without a single thought to the fact the Devs could literally just fix piracy and most f the PvPers would do that, because it would feel worthwhile. Not like the Devs are taking the p*ss out of us.

 

[Sylveria]

Um, people will leave to play Fallout 76 or RedDead2 regardless of what Frontier does.

Two completely different types of games from ED.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Um, people will leave to play Fallout 76 or RedDead2 regardless of what Frontier does.

Two completely different types of games from ED.

Yep, but thats just an example, people willl leave to go play something engaging with clever game design over something that is'nt.

ED has the space market pretty cornered for now. But thats guaranteed to be all it is. FOR NOW...

If they want to retain it, they better up thier game, else another company will come along and do it better. Such is the nature of the industry.

Won't take long before another Dev team sets thier eyes on ED's playerbase. SC already tried. Hell, even Bethesda's Starfield could end up being the one puttin gthe final nail in ED's coffin.

 

[Stigbob]

The discussion wasn't and isn't about the exact number of times you have to repeat the guardian base scanning nonsense in order to get a few simple modules. Is it >1? Well, yes, significantly so. Too much, tyvm.

​

You brought hugely exaggerated numbers into this, if you don't like that don't do it. I'm not following the goal posts over there.

​

Exploration in ED is just boring as hell, no matter whether or not you are going in a straight line. Too many loading screens with practically nothing to do in between, let alone something requiring some skill of any kind. And once you've seen a G type star you've seen them all.

I like exploration when I'm in the mood, I've been trying to set off on another epic jaunt for months but I'm just too busy with all the other things on offer around the bubble. Maybe a second account would be a good idea.

Loading screens are inevitable in a game this huge, the only way round it would be to preload other systems (not the whole galaxy that's impossible obviously). That will never work because at max jump range (most common jump) the number of systems to load just in case would be huge. Those loading screens save you a lot of time.

They also provide the opportunity to sip coffee, it's a video game loading screens will happen don't sweat what you can't change.

 

[CariadocThorne]

Every game needs progression, or you end up with a 1 dimensional boring sandpit. Ahaha, irony right?

But that's exactly the point. Not every game DOES need to be about that kind of progression.

If FDev try to make ED that kind of game, they are going to be putting it into direct competition with other games of that type. Or they can stick to their guns, and keep the players who aren't focused on progression.

You say they need to listen to their player base, but you only want them to listen to the portion which agrees with you, not the players who don't. They are listening, they are just listening more to the people who actually enjoy the game they created, than to the people who really want it to be a whole differrent type of game.

Even in the (exremely unlikely) scenario that Star citizen finally gets its act together, ED won't be dead. Some players will leave, but frankly, if you want that kind of game, Star Citizen is going to be a better game for you, and even if FDev put all there effort into becoming that kind of game, you'll still leave, because SC will be better for you. Meanwhile, if FDev move that way, they will lose all the players who like the kind of game ED is now, AND they'll lose all the players who want a different type of game.

ED is far from perfect, and there is a lot of room for improvement. But turning it into an entirely different type of game, just to satisfy one section of the player community is the worst thing they could do.

 

[Vedmo]

SOME people want progression in a game. There are literally hundreds of games out there designed for people who want that.

ED is not one of them.

If you buy a game not designed around end-game progression, when you want end-game progression, that is your fault, not the developers fault.

This is literally the equivalent of me buying GTA because it has cars in it, then getting angry because it isn't a racing game.

Couldn't agree more.

ED is its own breed, and I find that highly refreshing. When I started playing this game (Dec. 2017) I soon came to the realization of how conditioned I was to expect the formula so many games all plug into now. My brain just wanted to put every aspect of ED into the proper correlating box in which it would reside if anyone else had attempted to make this game. In some ways it fits, in others it doesn't, and I like that. I'm glad I became aware of this conditioning and separated it from my experience in ED as well, for it has undoubtedly made the game more enjoyable for me.

I think one of the best examples of this is the near total absence of in game guidance. To many it appears as a fault, making third party tools a necessity, for me they are an option for when I'm not interested in embracing the true exploration spirit of the game. I don't mean flying to Sag A exploration, but rather interacting with the galaxy and learning how it works through my own experiences. If it is an engaging process, I go it alone, and if it becomes a frustration, I'll just look it up. I think this one of the biggest things that has been lost over the years in gaming. Anything that makes you try to figure something out on your own is rare these days, or if it exists, it is coupled with dots on a map or arrows for those who just want to get from A to B. When the dots and arrows are there, I tend to ignore the content and willfully be led by the nose.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

But that's exactly the point. Not every game DOES need to be about that kind of progression.

If FDev try to make ED that kind of game, they are going to be putting it into direct competition with other games of that type. Or they can stick to their guns, and keep the players who aren't focused on progression.

You say they need to listen to their player base, but you only want them to listen to the portion which agrees with you, not the players who don't. They are listening, they are just listening more to the people who actually enjoy the game they created, than to the people who really want it to be a whole differrent type of game.

Even in the (exremely unlikely) scenario that Star citizen finally gets its act together, ED won't be dead. Some players will leave, but frankly, if you want that kind of game, Star Citizen is going to be a better game for you, and even if FDev put all there effort into becoming that kind of game, you'll still leave, because SC will be better for you. Meanwhile, if FDev move that way, they will lose all the players who like the kind of game ED is now, AND they'll lose all the players who want a different type of game.

ED is far from perfect, and there is a lot of room for improvement. But turning it into an entirely different type of game, just to satisfy one section of the player community is the worst thing they could do.

No, they need to listen to the majority.

The majority certainly seems to think.

LESS GRIND, MORE PROGRESS.

I'd think the billion and one posts a week would make that fairly clear.

EDIT: And FYI, I've done my grind, OMFG have I done my grind.

Would i start an ALT? NOT A F*CKING CHANCE.

Make the gameplay more engaging, and less people will complain that its repetative and grindy.

Thats not a hard concept to grasp.

 

[Sylveria]

No, they need to listen to the majority.

The majority certainly seems to think.

LESS GRIND, MORE PROGRESS.

I'd think the billion and one posts a week would make that fairly clear.

More vocal =/= majority.

I do think Frontier needs to do better with soliciting player feedback, however- especially in the way of polling players directly.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

No, they need to listen to the majority.

The majority certainly seems to think.

LESS GRIND, MORE PROGRESS.

I'd think the billion and one posts a week would make that fairly clear.

I just couldn't not to smile to this.

Have fun out there with anything you do.