How to solve the Combat Logging Problem

[Florenus]

Sure, so you don't think combat logging is a problem. Why are you responding to a thread about combat logging instead of just moving on? Honest question. The reason you give is probably in the general spirit as those wanting to solve the issue and not just say "move on".

Because this thread aims to resolve a "problem" that in my mind isn't a problem, but rather a misunderstanding of game pronciples. So I asked why do you guys think it is.
You answered, or rather quoted my post - and in this new forums I was notified of this fact that would otherwise escaped me. I red your answer, didn't understand what it had to do with combat logging and because I had some free time I replied, explaining why trying to fix something thats obviously part of game design is flawed notion in my opinion.
I hope this answers you honest question.

You don't want to move on and rather stay and fight this "issue"? Fine.
To use a metaphor, it's like playing checkers and complaining why it's not more like boxing and people walk away when you hit them.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You have good comments, no doubt, but do you honestly expect that people will adopt the stance of mentor to random players all over the world, as if they aren't there to play the game, only to teach others the rules? I don't see that happening. It's like swatting flies outside, near a fruit stand. You're not going to thin them out.

Sure. A majority will continue to rant and ejaculate spittle every time someone combat logs on them, then go and post a video on the CL subreddit where they can have their 2 minute hate together. I'd hope some of the more mature players though do take the time to try and educate those who combat log.

 

[Kaocraft]

However, rather than go into a blind rage over it when it happens (after all, its just a game, and you don't lose anything really). Reach out to the person who combat logged. Send them a friend request, and nicely explain to them about modes, the menu timer, FD's policy, about why its considered being a bad sport to combat log. Suggest to them they might want to play in PG or solo if they don't want to experience attacks from other players.

How about the game client automatically sends such a message to the player when it "detects" a combat log? Wouldn't be punishing anyone so no harm no foul if the client misidentifies a combat log, but it might help to establish a different and better culture around how people engage with one another.

Would be a great first step to ensure that everyone is at least on the same page.

 

[Kaocraft]

That's something completely different than combat logging "problem".
It's only a problem for people who want to force other players to fight. It's very far from this game design philosophy, where the game is mainly PvE experience with option to share that experience with other people.
PvP is also an option, if people are interested, but since you can play this game SOLO and avoid meeting other players completely, PvP obviously was never a focus for this game (and that's great in my opinion). Quite the contrary, It was made in such a way to help people avoid PvP if they don't want it.
Apart from Powerplay, player has no in-game interest in attacking other players, and since those other players can achieve their goals playing Solo, combat logging is only slightly irritating to attacking player, without any other consequence.

In other words: if someone combat logs, he either doesn't want to play with you, or is a poor sport - in both cases you do better just moving on, looking for different, more willing PvP partners.

So to be clear, you are advocating for Combat Logging as a good practice which should be supported? You WANT people to Combat Log and would be upset if something were done to prevent or discourage this?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

How about the game client automatically sends such a message to the player when it "detects" a combat log? Wouldn't be punishing anyone so no harm no foul if the client misidentifies a combat log, but it might help to establish a different and better culture around how people engage with one another.

Would be a great first step to ensure that everyone is at least on the same page.

Maybe Clippy should pop up and say "I see you are trying to combat log. Did you know private groups and solo exist?"

 

[Kaocraft]

Maybe Clippy should pop up and say "I see you are trying to combat log. Did you know private groups and solo exist?"

I mean . . .

 

[Florenus]

So to be clear, you are advocating for Combat Logging as a good practice which should be supported? You WANT people to Combat Log and would be upset if something were done to prevent or discourage this?

Do I WANT people to combat log?
I don't care.
They CAN and it's not runing the game, because the game is not PvP focused.

I generally don't combat log, but one time I'm flying my T10 to Jameson's Memorial. I'm kind of in a hurry, can't remember exactly why - Maybe I had something to do in RL and wanted to dock there before I quit, maybe I was going to meet somebody and Jameson Memorial was a pit stop - can't recall. Wasn't doing any mission.
I get interdicted. Guy starts to shoot. I can fight or high wake, but I don't have time for this. If I high wake, I will have to jump to the system again and repeat the journey, loosing time. My T10 is tough enough, so I tell the guy to leave me alone while he blasts at me and I low wake back to SC. He interdicts me again. I repeat that I'm not interested, low wake and again I'm interdicted.
Then I relog to solo, because the fact that some guy wants to have a shooting contest doesn't mean I must oblige him.

 

[Riverside]

That's something completely different than combat logging "problem".
It's only a problem for people who want to force other players to fight. It's very far from this game design philosophy, where the game is mainly PvE experience with option to share that experience with other people.
PvP is also an option, if people are interested, but since you can play this game SOLO and avoid meeting other players completely, PvP obviously was never a focus for this game (and that's great in my opinion). Quite the contrary, It was made in such a way to help people avoid PvP if they don't want it.
Apart from Powerplay, player has no in-game interest in attacking other players, and since those other players can achieve their goals playing Solo, combat logging is only slightly irritating to attacking player, without any other consequence.

In other words: if someone combat logs, he either doesn't want to play with you, or is a poor sport - in both cases you do better just moving on, looking for different, more willing PvP partners.

I think you describe the reality of the situation very well, but nevertheless it is cheating the consequences of the player's in-game decision using an out-of-game mechanism.

I feel the same about instance flipping to farm mats. It does no real harm to other players, but if the player wants the best gear imo they should put the time in to get that gear. I don't expect all to necessarily agree with this stance though, it's FDev that decide what kinds of behaviour should be discouraged.

I favour Cmdr CosmicSpaceHead's suggestion.

 

[Kaocraft]

Do I WANT people to combat log?
I don't care.
They CAN and it's not runing the game, because the game is not PvP focused.

Would it ruin the game if you COULDN'T combat log?

You're jumping into a thread about fixing Combat Logging, and repeatedly stating how it's "not a problem." Maybe it's not a problem to YOU, but it's a problem to many others. If you don't care, then you shouldn't have any need to comment.

So: is it important to you that Combat Logging remain in the game and that people continue to be able to Combat Log? Are you advocating for the practice? And if not, why are you participating in this discussion?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Do I WANT people to combat log?
I don't care.
They CAN and it's not runing the game, because the game is not PvP focused.

I generally don't combat log, but one time I'm flying my T10 to Jameson's Memorial. I'm kind of in a hurry, can't remember exactly why - Maybe I had something to do in RL and wanted to dock there before I quit, maybe I was going to meet somebody and Jameson Memorial was a pit stop - can't recall. Wasn't doing any mission.
I get interdicted. Guy starts to shoot. I can fight or high wake, but I don't have time for this. If I high wake, I will have to jump to the system again and repeat the journey, loosing time. My T10 is tough enough, so I tell the guy to leave me alone while he blasts at me and I low wake back to SC. He interdicts me again. I repeat that I'm not interested, low wake and again I'm interdicted.
Then I relog to solo, because the fact that some guy wants to have a shooting contest doesn't mean I must oblige him.

Type 10? The only thing that can mass lock that baby is a Cutter. You could have low waked and been on your way (unless it was a Cutter).

 

[Factabulous]

Type 10? The only thing that can mass lock that baby is a Cutter. You could have low waked and been on your way (unless it was a Cutter).

.... that's what he said he did...

 

[Florenus]

Would it ruin the game if you COULDN'T combat log?

You're jumping into a thread about fixing Combat Logging, and repeatedly stating how it's "not a problem." Maybe it's not a problem to YOU, but it's a problem to many others. If you don't care, then you shouldn't have any need to comment.

So: is it important to you that Combat Logging remain in the game and that people continue to be able to Combat Log? Are you advocating for the practice? And if not, why are you participating in this discussion?

Dude, my first post in this thread was simple. I asked why do you guys think combat logging is a problem that needs to be fixed. Because you've started by proposing fixes. Fixes to a "problem". So I asked where's the problem.

Therefore maybe answer me this: why is this a problem?
Do you loose something when other player combat logs? Does this deprive you of some score or rating? Does it cheat you of only way to achieve your goal?
Or does it only irritate you. Because if so, maybe you should look for a way to fix yourself, not the game.

To answer your question: I'm not sure if it would ruin the game for me if I was unable to combat log, but I really like about this game the fact it doesn't force me to play "open only" mode and I can choose how much interaction with other players I want and when I want it. So combat logging is just another option to keep unwanted interactions to a minimum.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I'll say this for combat logging, the amount of salt it generates amongst griefers and gankers is rather sweet.

 

[Kaocraft]

Dude, my first post in this thread was simple. I asked why do you guys think combat logging is a problem that needs to be fixed. Because you've started by proposing fixes. Fixes to a "problem". So I asked where's the problem.

If you find it difficult to grasp the issue, you could start a thread called "Combat Logging Isn't a Problem: Change My Mind" or something to that effect. You'll get all the answers you need from lots and lots of people. It's cheating and that's all that needs to be said about it here. The question of whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy it's a problem is not a valid thing to bring up in a thread about solutions. This discussion is about how to reduce or eliminate Combat Logging from the game. If you want to take a contra position, you could argue for why Combat Logging is good and valid and important and therefore must not be removed from the game. Repeated entreaties of the type "why should I care?/why do you care?" are derailing and unhelpful. The answers to those are simple: you shouldn't care; we don't care if you care. Meanwhile it's something that matters to a lot of people and each may have their own reasons for caring. Just as I don't care about whether or not YOU care, I also don't care whyyyyyyyyyyyyy they care. It is enough to have common cause with them and want to propose solutions.

 

[Stealthie]

If you find it difficult to grasp the issue, you could start a thread called "Combat Logging Isn't a Problem: Change My Mind" or something to that effect. You'll get all the answers you need from lots and lots of people. It's cheating and that's all that needs to be said about it here. The question of whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy it's a problem is not a valid thing to bring up in a thread about solutions. This discussion is about how to reduce or eliminate Combat Logging from the game. If you want to take a contra position, you could argue for why Combat Logging is good and valid and important and therefore must not be removed from the game. Repeated entreaties of the type "why should I care?/why do you care?" are derailing and unhelpful. The answers to those are simple: you shouldn't care; we don't care if you care. Meanwhile it's something that matters to a lot of people and each may have their own reasons for caring. Just as I don't care about whether or not YOU care, I also don't care whyyyyyyyyyyyyy they care. It is enough to have common cause with them and want to propose solutions.

Never been a fan of echo-chambers, myself.

If people want to discuss a subject sensibly, the smart thing to do is have ONE discussion where all POVs are welcome and people try to consider every opinion that's offered.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I've offered my suggestion in various threads on the topic before.

You need something that doesn't unduly punish false positives, while at the same time reducing its occurence.

So, a simple lock out from Open when the game suspects it has happened. This lock out increases with each occurence, to the point where someone who repeatedly combat logs will find themselves from playing in open for a very long time.

The people it might inadvertently punish are people who suffer frequent network issues or crashes, but then, perhaps its probably best for those people and others if they are not playing in open in the first place, at least until they resolve their issues.

 

[Ethaidan]

The original proposal is so wonderfully flawed toward exploitation it simply must be implemented and play tested (live only, no beta) for a minimum of at least 3-6 months.

As for the side argument, questioning whether the problem actually exists, how many people it effects, how it might effect them, etc. is entirely appropriate and well worth discussion. In any thread that discusses the 'problem', regardless of whether the thread is debating the existence of the problem or seeking solutions.

 

[Stealthie]

So, a simple lock out from Open when the game suspects it has happened. This lock out increases with each occurence, to the point where someone who repeatedly combat logs will find themselves from playing in open for a very long time.

Usual problem: something like that could easily EASILY be weaponised.

Ganker arrives at CG, interdicts player, uses suitable tool to disconnect them from the game and the player is then locked into Open, at the mercy of other gankers for the remainder of the CG.
Rinse & repeat.
You're locked in Open, you're locked in Open, Everyone's locked in Open.
(insert Oprah meme here).

And then there's the issue of PGs.
People play in PGs for the specific reason that they don't want to be in Open and so disconnecting them would force them into a mode that they specifically sought to avoid.
Yay. \o/

 

[Florenus]

If you find it difficult to grasp the issue, you could start a thread called "Combat Logging Isn't a Problem: Change My Mind" or something to that effect. You'll get all the answers you need from lots and lots of people. It's cheating and that's all that needs to be said about it here. The question of whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy it's a problem is not a valid thing to bring up in a thread about solutions. This discussion is about how to reduce or eliminate Combat Logging from the game. If you want to take a contra position, you could argue for why Combat Logging is good and valid and important and therefore must not be removed from the game. Repeated entreaties of the type "why should I care?/why do you care?" are derailing and unhelpful. The answers to those are simple: you shouldn't care; we don't care if you care. Meanwhile it's something that matters to a lot of people and each may have their own reasons for caring. Just as I don't care about whether or not YOU care, I also don't care whyyyyyyyyyyyyy they care. It is enough to have common cause with them and want to propose solutions.

So I probably should start a lot of threads about things I think are good and valid and important and therefore must not be removed from the game just in case someone decides they're not?

Also

If you want to take a contra position, you could argue for why Combat Logging is good and valid and important and therefore must not be removed from the game. Repeated entreaties of the type "why should I care?/why do you care?" are derailing and unhelpful.

You sure you're talking about me? Because I don't think I wrote anything along the lines "why should I care", but rather explained (when called upon) why I don't see this as a problem, but rather something fitting with other game design choices.

 

[Florenus]

Usual problem: something like that could easily EASILY be weaponised.

Ganker arrives at CG, interdicts player, uses suitable tool to disconnect them from the game and the player is then locked into Open, at the mercy of other gankers for the remainder of the CG.
Rinse & repeat.
You're locked in Open, you're locked in Open, Everyone's locked in Open.
(insert Oprah meme here).

And then there's the issue of PGs.
People play in PGs for the specific reason that they don't want to be in Open and so disconnecting them would force them into a mode that they specifically sought to avoid.
Yay. \o/

I think he ment players to not be allowed to play in Open when they CL