So I went back and read the entire OP. (It took a while). Lol

Suprisingly, he does make good points.

Boost bugged me from day 1.
Made multiple suggestions for a press and hold function instead. It actually reduces agilty, in favour of straight line speed.
Uses fuel, excessive heat, and damages the engines, so you can't spam it forever.

Engineers, a simple solution can fix most of that. Allow us to synthesise manufactured materials. (No idea for data yet). This then turns the Engineers in to a fully fledged crafting system. Gather elements to build manufactured materials. All the rest can stay mostly as is.

Sensors, are literally just for mass balance, and need a re-visit, so they effect more.
Ideally sensors get sensor sub slots, higher rating get more slots, higher grade supplement the installed sensors more. You can put scanners in these sub slots, discovery scanner, surface, manifest, KWS, etc....
Scanners effect turret and gimballed tracking, and lock speed, and improve defenses, like PD and missile warnings.
Additional sub slot items can include tracking buffs and Debuffs, missile lock buffs and Debuffs, sensor masking to become stealth, and ECCM to detect stealth, etc.

As far as long range BVR combat goes, it'd be fun for PvE, but not PvP. Imagine the carnage of stealth torp bombers attacking from 15+km away as you undock. Lol

But yeah, generally good points, but I can also see why they put them in to begin with.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 
Jesus it's a game always has been and has never promised to be anything else, If I want immersion I'll stick my head in a bucket of water, I want escapism. Shooting metal slugs in space that run out of steam after 3k tells you everything you need to know about the "game"
 
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It's not a concern for me. All the physics errors (maximum speed; fixed frame of reference; faster-than-light travel; scooping fuel from stars; inertialess roll, pitch and yaw; gatling guns on spaceships) continually remind someone of my background that it's not a realistic simulation. But I still enjoy it immensely.
 
Jesus it's a game always has been and has never promised to be anything else, If I want immersion I'll stick my head in a bucket of water, I want escapism. Shooting metal slugs in space that run out of steam after 3k tells you everything you need to know about the "game"

I never understood not wanting to be immersed in the game you play. If you are not immersed in it, then I can't imagine you are enjoying it.

Don't mistake immersion for realism though, they are very different things. People get immersed in angry birds and tetris.
 
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Boost mechanic - Agree with you on this, although I am happy with how things are, the thing is our ships don't consume fuel based on thrust output (SRV's do) Afterburner would have to drain the ENG capacitor rather than the fuel Onboard.

Engineers makes sense, it is a game, the point is to get people out of their comfort zone and try different things during the unlock phase.

Market data - We will have more access when 3.O hits, anyway this is 2018, web based apps are standard for games like these.

went through the rest of the post, some ideas for another game, or maybe waay down the line.


The stealth ships, with light, carbon fiber frames and nearly no radar signature, to combat the above? Where are the ECM jammers, logistics ships, space-equivalent aircraft carriers to project military power? The Super Tankers

All of the above is already in the game.

"Try out things in the unlock phase"

- Ye, grind three months just to find out it wasn't the right setup - grind some three months more to try out the next. No thanks.
 
"Try out things in the unlock phase"

- Ye, grind three months just to find out it wasn't the right setup - grind some three months more to try out the next. No thanks.

this is one fault of the "customization" mechanic, a very fundamental one. the grind being huge could be justified by considering it a "hardcore" game with a long curve and progression. fine, but the fact is you don't actually know what you get until you already "bought" into it and then it's dozens of magic effects that do not really play much in favour of the flight mechanic, just arbitrary effects plus sheer performance boosts. in the end it's a completely artificial and huge time sink, maybe fun for casual solo playing, but atrocious in the sense of being a progression towards being competitive.

as usual, haters gonna hate and fanbois gonna dismiss.
 
Let me preface this by saying (for the haters) that I keep coming here because I LOVE Elite's core game play. Flying the ships. Combat. Buzzing bad guys in asteroid fields and rings. Its visceral and real and heady, and I cannot get enough of small ship combat in tight quarters, with obstacles and a sense of scale. Its possibly the most immersive, and one of the most enjoyable, experiences I have ever been privy to in gaming. And that is why I WANT badly to see this game succeed.

But I feel that many supporting mechanics - that is, non game play related stuff - drag the game down. Not only do they fail to increase the fun factor. They actively detract therefrom. Engineers are a big one. What should have been a simple credits and sliders tweaking system available at any station once unlocked (the better to allow us to get back to PLAYING the game as quickly as possible) instead turned into a multi tier, time gated, RNG grind that actively DETRACTS from the simple yet immersive fun of actually playing our way. That's a net negative, and thats a TON of dev time to spend on a net negative.

That said, I want to talk about why, to me - and I humbly suspect, many others - Elite feels so...gamey...for lack of a better term. And I want to start, by defining what I mean when I use that term, "gamey" so we can all get on the same page right from the get go. Gamey is a term I use to define aspects of a game that feel blatantly fake. Like they would never exist within the universe in which a game is based, and instead only exist BECAUSE its a game, and not for any other (better) reason.

Why are Gamey mechanics bad? They constantly remind players that they are playing a game. They yank us out of the fiction, kill our suspension of disbelief and detract from the enjoyment we derive from the experience of playing a game. Thus they are, in short, usually bad. Usually.

So which mechanics in Elite are overly gamey? You guessed it: Almost everything not directly related to flying and fighting. Flying in normal space, including turning, and maneuvering thrust, F/A off...even the sound model that accompanies these things, are top notch. A new bar was set with Elite's core mechanics, and I mean that wholeheartedly.

But even among these otherwise excellent - indeed, bar setting - mechanics, we see something unusually gamey. Something that utterly kills any sense of immersion. The Boost mechanic really feels...awkward. That it is limited to pre-determined lengths of time just feels gamey. Boost should engage when I set throttle to afterburner, should burn fuel almost constantly, dependent on Engine grade and ship mass, and then toggle off when I turn it off. That's how Afterburners work. Except in Elite, because..."balance" (whatever that claims to mean in the aftermath of the Engineers that destroyed any hope of it). That is, by definition, an overly gamey, immersion shattering mechanic, and as such, it actively detracts from the quality of the experience that is a Sim like Elite, by shattering suspension of disbelief.

And Boost is hardly alone.

Looking outside the combat system, we see multiple systems that are overly gamey and feel false. Engineers are one such. Basically a copy pasta fantasy MMO crafting system, (badly) inserted into a universe where such a system makes little to no sense. In this universe, Engineers would accept credits, materials would be market items many people would buy and sell (after all, most of them are pretty common and station markets would be more than happy to make money from the trade they bring). And people would know where to find these so called recluses...even if for a price. Lastly, these recluses would hardly need you to gather materials for them, as without those materials, they could not ply their trade, and would thus not be any good at it. Nothing about the Engineering system makes sense in a logical, science driven universe...reminding us that, hey, this is just a game and yanking the rug from under the suspension of disbelief many gamers prize.

And it does not stop there. Market data not trackable from our ship? This is the sort of data an Access or SQL Database could store and query now. In the 21st century. Third party websites PROVE this point. And yet, our magnificent, 19th century space ship tech (more on that in a bit) is utterly incapable of doing so.

Likewise, the things we need most in the game - ships and modules - are also overly gamey. Where are the competing sales? where are the stations hosting these sales to drive traffic to a system? The Galnet ads pushing these sales? Where are the plethora of manufacturers, and DEALERS/SELLERS, that are MORE than happy to tell us exactly where to find their ships SO WE CAN GIVE THEM OUR MONEY? That finding such key things in the game is such a hassle not only makes playing the game as inconvenient as possible, and a chore - an actual, unpleasant CHORE - for new players. It also makes no sense within the context of the Elite universe.

I can buy a car right now. On the internet. To spec. And have it delivered to a local dealer. All without even TALKING TO anyone. More less traveling anywhere. And yet, according to Elite: Dangerous, 1000 years in the future, in a universe with FTL flight AND communication...i have to wander all over the galaxy, HOPING to find the ships, and modules, I want to purchase. And when I DO find them, I have to pay the same price for a ship EVERYWHERE I go.

Sorry, no. NO corporation is going to ALLOW that to happen. They're going to TELL you where to find the merchandise you want to buy. Host sales. Take out ads. Do everything they can to sell you their product. And you arent going to have any trouble finding it, either. Not with the convenience of in-ship, FTL Internet style communications. Finding the things you need in this universe should be a cinch. It is now, so, why would it NOT be in 1000 years?

And the modules to fit those ships? A, B, C, D and E? REALLY? What is this? Diablo in space? Those modules should be made by different companies. Performance Parts Inc should make A rated modules. For the discerning customer concerned with getting the most, out of their ship.

The B Rated items would be made by a second company, offering near top notch performance, for a heck of a lot less price...and with more durability to boot.

Our C items would come from a company pushing the idea that theirs is the perfect mix of affordability and cost, with perhaps a perk thrown in for C Rated items, to match the Durability of B and lighter weight of D.

Modules formerly rated as D would become products of, say, Pathfinders Parts, Inc. Parts for the Explorer in all of us. When getting there quickly is more important than putting on a show once you show, buy from Pathfiner, fitting you for all of you Exploration based needs.

Finally, E rated parts would be Economy Class Customs, LLC. For when you just need it to work, without working over your wallet.

This is how a REAL, living universe would work. Competing companies. Different perks or benefits for buying various goods. Ads and sales to get you buying those goods. Galnet addresses to help you FIND the goods, services, ships, modules and commodities you WANT to exchange your hard earned credits for. Information would flow like wine in a universe like Elite...because if it didnt THE inhabited portion of that universe LITERALLY COULD NOT EXIST.

And yet...we get...this...instead. A universe wherein the entire 20th century...seemingly never happened. Its as if technology reached the point of, perhaps, the early biplane and magnifying scope combo...and then stopped. For nearly a century. Before mysteriously leaping to interstellar flight.

Where are the radars that control aerial conflicts for a 500 mile radius? The missiles that can fire on targets over the horizon, with minimal risk to pilots? The stealth ships, with light, carbon fiber frames and nearly no radar signature, to combat the above? Where are the ECM jammers, logistics ships, space-equivalent aircraft carriers to project military power? The Super Tankers that would be absolute REQUIREMENT to keep the economics of the Elite universe functioning?

Where are the light speed internet communications tools? The web browsers in ships? Why are scanners still 1 ton computers, as opposed to apps we install on the ENORMOUS hard drive space our ships contain in tiny sections of the dashboard? Why, in short, did technology in the Elite universe backslide for NEARLY A CENTURY...and then leap ahead to what we have, this curious mix of star trek level travel, and 19th century nearly everything else?

Because its a game. That's the reason. That's the ONLY reason. No justifiable, in universe reason even begins to make logical sense. And I humbly submit that this fact - coupled with the suggestions above - are things the devs should consider as they overhaul in game mechanics as part of their ongoing Beyond upgrades.

Thanks for reading.

That's kind of a rant, and sounds a bit too angry for my liking, but in a way I agree.
I'd love to see more mechanics based on science and technology in the game, in a way that makes sense. A lot of quality of life improvements could be done by simply implementing the basic functions of a smart phone (how easily that could be done in the game engine is another thing). The whole sim aspect of the game is what interests me most in Elite, it's what builds up the illusion of really being out there.
As much as I understand that some things have been done as they have been done for gameplay reasons, I can't help but tripping over those. Things like telepresence, which collides with logic and lore at some points I really can't ignore (just an example, this has been discussed a lot already). Ship launched fighters are conveniently 3D printed in our hold. If we can 3D print a whole figher, why can't we 3D print limpets and a whole lot more? The fighter printing mechanics have been implemented for balancing and usefulness of the fighters of course, because it's kinda lame to have only one. But it's a big fat inconsistency.

To summerize and not write another novel: I'd love to see more gameplay mechanics based on scientific stuff and tech that should be available in a space ship. We have ship launched fighters, why don't we have remotely controlled drones that that are able to scan and collect stuff? Yes, develpment time, but in the end I don't use ship launched fighters. I have some because it's cool to have them, but I would love to have scientific drones instead. That goes for lots of other stuff, like I really had no incentive at all to check out the tech broker in the beta because it was just weapons he/she offered. There are so many games that are about upgrading weapons and blowing stuff to bits already.

Where is all the other tech? More science in the game would make my heart rejoice!
 
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@blackcompany. I saw one of your negative comments on this site.

20/02/2018 at 20:12 Blackcompany says:

Even calling it “flying” is generous. It’s mostly loading screens and waiting.

The flight model is great though. Pity that outside of combat, you don’t use it.

It appears you hate a lot about this game.
 
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Considering that magical FTL communication you speak of isn't in standard use across the galaxy nor is it great for mass data transfer, I'll have to choose to understand why we don't get instant updates of what's available where and for what price. 3.0 is improving that, but we won't magically get it for no reason thankfully. Other than that, you've got a few points that I can understand even if I disagree.

I love the game regardless. I know Fdev's vision for the game so I understand why most of it is the way it is.
 
@blackcompany. I saw one of your negative comments on this site.

It appears you hate a lot about this game.

'scuse me, how is that relevant to the thread in general?
Does his negative opinion of some of game's elements invalidate objective truth in hist post? How exactly?
 
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'scuse me, how is that relevant to the thread in general?
Does his negative opinion of some of game's elements invalidate objective truth in hist post? How exactly?

No, it being his opinion, rather than objective truth, that invalidates his post. And, yours as well, it seems.
 
Considering that magical FTL communication you speak of isn't in standard use across the galaxy nor is it great for mass data transfer, I'll have to choose to understand why we don't get instant updates of what's available where and for what price. 3.0 is improving that, but we won't magically get it for no reason thankfully. Other than that, you've got a few points that I can understand even if I disagree.

I love the game regardless. I know Fdev's vision for the game so I understand why most of it is the way it is.

Think I once read something somewhere (yeah, very vague, I know) that FTL communication wasn't actually part of the Elite universe. The only reason players are able to communicate over vast distances is because, in this case, realism isn't desired at all. And this is of course very understandable.
 
No, it being his opinion, rather than objective truth, that invalidates his post. And, yours ad well, it seems.

Did I get it right that you're saying a post presenting someone's subjective opinion is invalid because it presents said person's subjective opinion?
And that such post absolutely cannot contain objective truth because at the core it represents someone's subjective point of view?

Well, here's a sample: I don't like Mondays because they're after Sundays.

Please defeat this objective truth of order of days in light of my subjective opinion.
I wonder how you can pull this out of your... thrusters.

The same rational that people beat their partners and children use to justify it ;"Love and the desire to improve them"

Seeing how vicious guys like you are in criticizing... game's criticism, I guess the same can be said about your participation in threads like this one.
Why are you still here if you don't like OP's opinion? Beats me.
 
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Seeing how vicious guys like you are in criticizing... game's criticism, I guess the same can be said about your participation in threads like this one.
Why are you still here if you don't like OP's opinion? Beats me.
Still here?
That was my first post in the thread, am I not even allowed one?

Also

Your example is flawed

All of John Xenir posts are untrue because Monday follows Sunday

Please defeat this objective truth of order of days in light of my subjective opinion.
 
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Thanks for reading.

I agree with a lot of what you say. many parts of ED are basically cut to an MVP presumably to get it out of the door.
The snag is however a large proportion of the playerbase would crap a lung if suddenly ED was patched to have the complexity which I would so dearly love in the game.

having to do stuff before being able to calculate a jump to an unexplored system
a complex economy where if you do not supply a system with enough of their imports, their exports grind to a halt.
ship systems which malfunction if not properly maintained
giant ships which need crew if you want to even leave the station (lore and the earlier games cover this but its not implemented)
having to prove ourselves before getting insurance to fly the higher level ships
the economy and the money actually feeling plausible.
engineers to act like engineers and not enchanters from a dragon age game.

i would love all of that but i fear too many people would see it as added grind and an obstacle in their way to..... what ever their goal is.

To me the grind IS the game, and so making said "grind" more involved can only be a good thing.

some of the stuff may come in the future, most of it is covered in the DDF and dev diaries

but a lot of it is on David Brabens Cutting room floor i fear.

all that said... warts and all i still really enjoy the game.
 
Did I get it right that you're saying a post presenting someone's subjective opinion is invalid because it presents said person's subjective opinion?
And that such post absolutely cannot contain objective truth because at the core it represents someone's subjective point of view?

Well, here's a sample: I don't like Mondays because they're after Sundays.

Please defeat this objective truth of order of days in light of my subjective opinion.
I wonder how you can pull this out of your... thrusers

Easy, I only need one simple phrase: Red Herring.

Setting up the perfect scenario, words wise, doesn't insert some objective truth into the OP.
 
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