Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Jack Schitt]

Crucially, the KWS gave you the ability to *choose* whether to cash in a bounty for a given faction, and at which station to do so. This impacts your reputation with the faction in question, as well as the influence levels of the faction in question. You can make intelligent, strategic, meaningful choices around the old KWS mechanics. The new system makes everything into one simple dumb number and it eliminates all of this strategy and choice. You can't fix it by just raising a payout because payouts are not the most significant loss here.

Absolutely, 100% this. It's not obvious to the casual player, and not everyone does it. It's about as niche as you can get. It doesn't even pay well, in terms of credits. But it's there, an opportunity for nuanced play based not on a specific design choice but on the interaction of other, simpler mechanics. This is what will be lost to the PVE game if complicated KWS changes are introduced and offset merely by increasing the payout.

I would go so far as to describe this as a great example of ED's "emergent gameplay", but maybe that phrase only applies when seal clubbing or trolling the terminally ill.

 

[Acceleratio]

How about you just make the KWS work like you have described against PLAYERS but against the AI it works like it did before? I mean it's really that simple, you are trashing a mostly pve system for 3% of BH'ing which happens against players. The only people BH'ing players tend to be their mates wiping their bounty clean for them.

This so much! Please devs! The KWS is used 99% for PvE! Why on earth are you considering PvP so much with this tool? Don't you have statistics on your hands? Isn't it even obvious? Why are you only catering to one player group when discussing those changes? I mean what the ...

I want to say more but I fear it might get insulting so I leave it with a very friendly and desperate pretty pretty please!

 

[DARGAN]

I did not understand too much, but do not do anything stupid with the KWS, please lol but I'm confident, I use it a lot in Solo PVE.

in 2.4 what we add bounty KWS is very correct for PVE, i'm not against giving it more importance for PVP, in any case if the KWS is used little PVP is because of the ridiculous bounty we generate (compared to its high energy cost).

the last time I destroyed a player (by accident or bug, I ask myself the question) I received a bounty of 10,000 credits. ie 1/3 of the value of a sidewinder, I made this offense in a corvette worth 1,000,000,000 credit.. no PVP bounty hunter can get rich with such low bounty.

I should have had at least a 500,000 bounty on me for destroying easy prey.. and maybe more because of the difficulty a bounty hunter has in destroying me in return (far from this lousy bounty of 10,000c lol), it is in any case the impression that it makes me.

about reputation, I do not know if the use of KWS has an impact in 2.4, it is in no way indicated in game.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Simple answer, don't change the KWS from what it is in 2.4. If you proceed as planned in this proposal or the way things were in beta then there will be too many ways to accrue a bounty but not a lot of ways to collect/clear them.

 

[TeamGav]

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[raymondo the great]

Don't know if this was discussed overnight, but as yet I've yet to see anything specifically on new player minor factions.

So once upon a time a player minor faction went straight in as the controlling faction. Now it doesn't.
Now as the bottom faction now it can be fairly difficult to get it going, you won't have any rep with it, you'll likely have very poor *if any* missions exploration data and trading wont help, but bounty hunting? Thats currently a great place to start to get your minor faction up and running! Go out and KWS a ton of stuff, only turn in bounties for your faction, get loads of rep and push up their influence, till the point decentish missions are available if you want, or just rinse and repeat

But now? Well bounty hunting won't work (most likely) will it? Unless you've picked to be the same power as the controlling faction you won't get any, and in fact under the beta system - which will make it into live - you will get negative rep with your "own" faction for even trying! Under at least one of Sandros "throw crap at the wall and see what sticks" proposals it would be the same.

The upshot is making it harder for new minor factions to get started at the same time they plan on adding wing missions and later player megatype ships and ingame "fleets" which would surely increase the amount of people wanting to start their own faction?

So you have the first year or so of minor factions who were handed everything on a plate, then a year or so of having to work hard, and now the workload and difficulty to start one has been upped again! Talk about pulling the ladder up eh?

 

[DARGAN]

Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.

E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.

in 2.4 the KWS recover all the bounty without exception.., if this is the case then you may need to increase the bounties value to compensate for the new operation.. or align the number of npc bounties according to the current jurisdiction so as not to offer less.

What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.

The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

that's what the basic scanner does (legitimate), and it makes sense for the KWS to do that as well, just make sure the basic scanner works well in parallel with the KWS.. it would be odd that the basic scanner legitimizes an attack that the KWS will not legitimize (maybe the basic scanner will no longer detect the wanted ships).

if it is not very clear it is normal I use a translator, but even without translator, all this must not be clearer lol.

 

[TeamGav]

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[-VR- Max Factor]

Don't know if this was discussed overnight, but as yet I've yet to see anything specifically on new player minor factions.

So once upon a time a player minor faction went straight in as the controlling faction. Now it doesn't.
Now as the bottom faction now it can be fairly difficult to get it going, you won't have any rep with it, you'll likely have very poor *if any* missions exploration data and trading wont help, but bounty hunting? Thats currently a great place to start to get your minor faction up and running! Go out and KWS a ton of stuff, only turn in bounties for your faction, get loads of rep and push up their influence, till the point decentish missions are available if you want, or just rinse and repeat

But now? Well bounty hunting won't work (most likely) will it? Unless you've picked to be the same power as the controlling faction you won't get any, and in fact under the beta system - which will make it into live - you will get negative rep with your "own" faction for even trying! Under at least one of Sandros "throw crap at the wall and see what sticks" proposals it would be the same.

The upshot is making it harder for new minor factions to get started at the same time they plan on adding wing missions and later player megatype ships and ingame "fleets" which would surely increase the amount of people wanting to start their own faction?

So you have the first year or so of minor factions who were handed everything on a plate, then a year or so of having to work hard, and now the workload and difficulty to start one has been upped again! Talk about pulling the ladder up eh?

To be perfectly honest though it makes sense. The controlling faction controls the security apart from around stations which is station sec. Crimes in-system should result in a bounty from the controlling system no matter who they are and what faction they represent. What the KWS should do is add up the bounties from the different jurisdictions for you to be able to hand in, that is how it should work.

Bounty hunting in a system should only help the controlling faction as you are helping them clean up the system. Makes perfect sense to me. You will need to do other activities to boost your faction until they are in control.

But there needs to be some kind of counter activity. It's the reason why I think there should be black markets in nearly all systems (wherever there is a large population there is always a black market of some kind, but they need to be expanded upon with different black market factions that want different stuff). So to counter the bounty hunting, people will need to smuggle goods (drugs, guns etc) in, to undermine the controlling faction stations.

 

[Alec Turner]

Whoops ... my bad ... sorry everyone!

Joking aside ... obviously Frontier have put a lot of time and effort into their re-working of the C&P system and, although it's not an area of the game that especially interests me, I get the sense that the changes have gone down quite well with a reasonable proportion of the community, have been tested in the beta and ARE coming to the live game any day/week now. An unfortunate side-effect of those changes is an apparently unavoidable change to the behaviour of the KWS. I really liked the old KWS behaviour, it was simple, solid and self consistent. But I'm resigned now to the fact that, for better or worse, these changes ARE going to happen. This is where we are.

I know a lot of people keep coming back to this idea of the KWS behaving in the old way for NPCs and in the new way for PVP. Aside from this maybe being a bit untidy (as a coder I know I hate having special case code - things are always more elegant if this can be avoided) I wonder Sandro whether perhaps you (or one of the other programmers) could just give a clear statement that "sorry, but this isn't possible" (because I get that this might be the case but would just like to be told so definitively so we can stop clinging on to this thread of hope for the old behaviour).

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;FfnhmuZ27eQ]https://youtu.be/FfnhmuZ27eQ[/video]

Given all this, and after a night sleeping on it, I wanted to say that I'm really grateful that Sandy & Co. are working to try and salvage something from the situation - thanks guys.

I do like the idea of the KWS legitimising kills on an otherwise locally CLEAN ship. From a bounty hunter's RP perspective (I don't care about the credits) this might actually give the KWS a (new and different) role in the game.

Hello Commanders!

I don't think there's any need to worry about the legibility: we'd have idents like the "WANTED" to hopefully show unambiguously who was permitted to attack and who was a valid target.

Excellent. I also like Shrapnel's suggestion ..

I like your suggestion, just make sure that all of the bounties found that do NOT legitimize attack in the current system are clearly marked as such, displaying some sort of warning that it is a crime to claim said bounty in the current system. Maybe even have different sound effects for each finished scan result:

Sound effect one: Scan finished and you are cleared to claim bounty on the current target

Sound effect two: Scan finished, there are bounties on this target but it is a crime to engage in this system. (maybe you can follow the targets wake until he ends up in a system he is wanted in?)

Sound effect three: no bounties found on current target.

Other than that I think your suggestion works for me.

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* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

Don't know what that means - let's forget that.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

I think "become a superpower" is an unfortunate and somewhat provocative phrase but the general idea of a "treaty" (or whatever you want to call it) for the independents being grouped together is fine.

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

Yup - all good.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

Like several others I'm not sure about that. If we can KWS the target in a non-anarachy and then pursue them to an anarchy and still kill them for the bounties we revealed then that's OK but I definitely wouldn't want to lose the ability to track our quarry across multiple systems only to have them magically become clean when they get to an anarchy. Perhaps I've misunderstood?

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

Yes - good.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

Again, I don't really understand this.

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I think we would have the ability to look at bounties and their values to help mitigate loss of earnings.

Fine. Again, let's try not to focus on the money side too much yet. Rewards can easily be tweaked and balanced later - it's the underlying mechanisms and systems that are important to get right at this stage.

I think the only really complicated bit is the issue of faction rep. I can't really comment on that and must confess that I'm largely oblivious to how my bounty hunting affects this but I think if you can find a balanced solution which doesn't wreck the gameplay of those to whom this is really important (quite a lot of people by the sounds of it) then we may be onto a winner. A change for sure, but who knows, maybe even for the better in the long run.

The KWS is dead. Long live the KWS.

 

[Delilah]

Hi Sandro.

I think the main issue about the new KWS and the logic of "Commander risks ship destruction multiple times" is that it does not apply to NPC's, as they are not persistent. The logic presented indicates that you guys were thinking about KWS mainly as PVP module, where I don't think it's the case, as it was widely used for maximising profits for PVE as well. You have all the data from the players, so you probably know best, but I could dare an assumption that the KWS is (or was) much more popular with PVE players rather than PVP. And you have seemed to ignore that part of it's use completely.

The proposal here seems good to me and it would indeed render KWS useful in PVE again, at least in superpowers. Still, what about the independent ones?

::EDIT::

After reading some of the comments below I actually agree about the effect on reputation and in CG's as well... Give it some more thought. The proposal is a step in the right direction, but not big enough IMHO.

Several thoughts.

First, there has been a change this beta in how Frontier is communicating with and taking into account community feedback. That is all to the good. Rethinking the KWS *with* the community is one such example.

Second, Rootsrat comment above captures the core problem about both the change to the KWS as well as the underlying problem with the new C&P -- it applies to both pilots and NPCs, but it is a game mechanic best reserved for pilots only.

I realize Frontier wants to reduce the impact killing system security has on the BGS. That makes sense too. But that might be better addressed in a comprehensive BGS pass.

Overall, I would decouple much of C&P from NPCs to solve the KWS issue.

 

[MuldWarp]

Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.
  • E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.
• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.
• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

You say the KWS will legitimise attacks on a scanned ship, but if a ship is scanned normally without a KWS and is wanted in the current system I assume it's still a legitimate target?

The KWS detecting bounties from factions alligned with the local superpower makes perfect sense to me, but in addition you say that the KWS will detect all interstellar bounties on a given target. Does this mean that the KWS does in fact scan ALL bounties on a given target, but that engaging will only be deemed legitimate if said target is wanted locally?


Overall I think the new suggestions sound like an improvement, making running the KWS more worthwhile and engaging with faction allignments in an interesting and meaningful way.

 

[JesusOnEez]

I would prefer that the KWS had a dedicated button so I would start using it again. Ever since I have had to have it on a separate fire group to my main guns it barely is used anymore as its too much of a hassle to swap fire groups and lose my guns mid fight just to scan someone. Until it becomes more useful I dont even care what it does.

I tend to use lasers to take out shields whilst running the KWS. Once that's run I go to my main destructo fire group. Seems to work well.

 

[nrage]

Very good points #1 and #2.

3. Additional disclosure: I do NOT oppose PvP or related game play, and never have. I don't define all situations where one player opens fire on another as "griefing," and never will. Having said that...I've seen a few comments saying "leave it the old way," and respond to the notion that doing so would be "crippling" with "if you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime." In a way, I empathize with this notion. More than a few people have said in this forum that due to the billions they've amassed, "the C & P won't save you." If the truly persistent murderers did face the full brunt of consequences, whether taking away a notable chunk of their fortune or causing them to lose one of their prized murder-yachts, you have to admit that would go a long way toward stemming the tide of seal-clubbing and murder sprees.

On this point.. and I may be miss-understanding the notion here, but .. There is no reason the bounty paid to the collector and the fine paid by the perpetrator need to be the same. C&P says that the perp will pay, in full, all applicable bounties/fines upon death. The collector should, IMO, also get all applicable fines/bounties, except that of course this is capped (as it currently is) at 2 million CR.

Of course, the issue here is that the KWS used to reveal more than the locally applicable bounties/fines and that's the main change people are concerned about. The issue is that they can no longer detect a bounty from the system next door. Implied by this fact, is that KWS doesn't function at all in anarchy systems (as Sandro pointed out) because there are no locally applicable bounties that the perp would pay upon death.

I think it "makes sense" for the KWS not to detect local bounties for the system next door, as annoying as this might be for a BGS player I think it's a change we can deal with. If you want those bounties, you have to go and find them in that system. This will be tough in systems without RES sites - but lets solve that issue by adding more gameplay options instead, as-in, lets have another persistent location we can go (like the nav beacon) where we will find a high ratio of wanted ships.

I think it "makes sense" for the KWS to detect superpower OR interstellar bounties EVEN in anarchy systems. I know Sandro and team want to make Anarchies a place where player "bad guys" can go to avoid repercussions, so perhaps the KWS only detects the latter (the interstellar bounties) meaning only the really bad guys can be "brought to justice" and only with a KWS scan (which they could avoid using a number of tactics to break the scan or simply escape in time).

I think it "makes sense" that if a player is killed, having had those bounties revealed by a KWS, then they do have to pay them. The lore explanation here might be that their escape pod is intercepted by those authorities, thanks to the KWS tagging it, or similar. This will make bad guys slightly fearful of KWS scanners and therefore bounty hunters, which I think is just about perfect from a gameplay perspective.

Additional idea, to incentivize PvP bounty hunting gameplay: If a bounty payout to a collector is capped at 2 million (as it needs to be to close the exploit hole) I reckon they should get something.. like perhaps a boost in rep from the local controlling faction, and/or superpower, in recognition of their service taking down a truly notorious villain. Or, perhaps they get a decent navy rank increase from the superpower. Basically, something extra that isn't CR that makes hunting players worth the inevitable costs.

 

[Sylow]

1. Making the KWS useless in anarchy systems really seems to me a terrible idea. As others noted, the idea of going into lawless territory to track down that ruthless killer is a staple of fiction in many genres, and has an appeal for gameplay as well as storytelling. Taking away the ability to do this takes away part of the game's charm.

.
This one also had me puzzled for a while. But then i realized that we actually do have both variants in the game. Only one is not connected to the KWS.
.
Using the KWS turns a bit more into a policing thing. It's something like in old times Texas, where ranger Joe stands on the veranda of his villa and tells his cowboys: "You remember the vagabonds who where here last week? They greedily oogled my cattle and deflorated my daughter. Or vice versa. I don't want to ever see them again! If they come back, i will reward anybody who takes care of them."
.
So cruising the system and collecting local bounties is more about keeping the local rabble down. If they go to another system, they're out of view and out of mind, they're not important enough to bother any more if they are away. Once somebody has proven to be troublesome enough, something completely different kicks in: assassination missions. There are enough "take down infamous pirate" and "eliminate terrorist leader" missions. They make you go to other systems and hunt targets down for a bounty.
.
Also, there'll now be wing missions of that kind. I also tried to solo one of them in the beta, but my ship of choice and/or my piloting skills were not sufficient to succeed. I ran into a wing consisting of an Anaconda, a Python, a FDL, a Vulture, a Cobra MK IV and an Eagle, which gave me a solid beating (i got the Eagle and the Cobra, as they were quick kills) and i had to run. I also tried those missions with some two others. The first one we also failed, as nobody has a wake scanner along, the other two missions we managed (in one of them we had to follow to another system), but even in a wing of three, one of my wingmates was barely still flying in the end. The missions paid several millions for each of us, so it probably was more money per time invested than hunting in a HazRES. Sure the risk was higher, but more challenge also meant it was more fun.
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The caveat there: that was beta balance. We had more than one beta where rewards changed drastically between the last day of the beta and the first day of live. If somebody concludes that the mission rewards are too high and significally reduces them, we might end up in the new missions being merely a curiosity. But if the Mission rewards remain high enough so you can make more money per hour than HazRES hunting, they will be used.
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After that, the challenge is on us, to adjust our terms. HazRES will be more along the lines of privateering, while actual bounty hunting will be the high target missions on the mission board. So i think that technically all bases are covered, it all depends on a few variables and how we players work with the new options.
.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Overall, I would decouple much of C&P from NPCs to solve the KWS issue.

So you are saying that PvE gameplay should have virtually no consequences. To me, that sounds like a disaster and would make PvE ultra boring for me.

 

[biohazard15]

I tend to use lasers to take out shields whilst running the KWS. Once that's run I go to my main destructo fire group. Seems to work well.

A little note here: if you swap firing groups mid-scan, it will NOT disrupt scanning if KWS is mapped to both groups and on the same button.

Example:
FG1 - Lasers and KWS on LMB, MCs on RMB
FG2 - KWS on LMB

You fly around with FG2 active (it acts as a sort of "gun safety"). Once you have a target, start KWSing it - and switch firing groups mid-scan. Keep holding fire button (LMB in this case). Lasers will start firing, and KWS will finish its scan (unless interrupted somehow).

This tactic is standard for RES bounty hunting. For best result, use long-range lasers and long-range KWS (preferably with same range as lasers - G5 LR C-class KWS is wonderful for this).

 

[biohazard15]

So you are saying that PvE gameplay should have virtually no consequences. To me, that sounds like a disaster and would make PvE ultra boring for me.

Frankly, the one and only "consequence" of new C&P for PVE is that now you have to go to IF in order to wipe that 500Cr bounty you've got for accidentally shooting a wanted pirate millisecond before basic scan finished.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

While I am out of steam to discuss this, I just want to point out - till NPCs (let's say you engage pirate and you chase it trough multiple systems) gain some persistence, there's very few arguments to keep KWS way it works now. Yeah, it is cool that it offers buffet of bounties and rep for commander, but it does very little in context of PvE, because NPCs are what they are and their bounties matter in local context.

I feel that KWS workings might need improvements if NPC pirates become more persistent.

 

[nrage]

While I am out of steam to discuss this, I just want to point out - till NPCs (let's say you engage pirate and you chase it trough multiple systems) gain some persistence, there's very few arguments to keep KWS way it works now.

Don't NPC's persist if you wake scan them?

Yeah, it is cool that it offers buffet of bounties and rep for commander, but it does very little in context of PvE, because NPCs are what they are and their bounties matter in local context.

They also exist, are currently detectable, and matter in nearby systems. This is the key BGS/rep/etc issue, I believe.