Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Correct. So, there is no point in going to the Nav Beacon, etc, anymore.

Even if you only KWS ships that interdict you, you will lose rep with the faction of the interdicting ship. So, why even bother carrying one?

This is a blatant nerf to PvE. Mr. Captain's Log (Gennar) may be completely correct about this (PS: He's better than Frontier is).

Except the following suggestion from Sandro would prevent faction loss if you used the KWS (except for anarchy factions):

Hello Commander Daniel Cloudsifter!

So, if I'm following this, what would you say if part of the KWS functionality was to stop reputation loss for any ship that is wanted?

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

On your answer to point 4, one of the things I loved about Beta 3.0 testing was how my criminal commander was getting pursued by bounty hunters in jurisdictions outside where the crime was committed. Knowing those NPC's won't end up Wanted as a result makes it even *cooler* IMHO. Do I make a run for it, or do I stay & fight.....knowing it will make me wanted here too?!?! .

Actually, I"m getting pursued by Bounty Hunters outside of their jurisdiction in LIVE right now, so that wasn't a change in Beta.

I agree with you that NPC Bounty Hunters scanning you outside of their jurisdiction with a KWS, allowing them to fire on you without becoming wanted, IS A COOL feature considering how the new C&P system will work. If I get tired of bounty hunters tracking me down (and not being able to defend myself without committing further crimes), I can wait for my notoriety to go to zero (if necessary) and then pay off the bounties at Interstellar Factors.

So if you commit a crime ANYWHERE, bounty hunters can come for your hide ANYWHERE except Anarchy systems - where KWS doesn't work (as mentioned in one of Sandro's other posts). Either deal with it or pay up.

In Live/2.4, I would not be in favor of this because of the locked in 7 day waiting period (for murder). But with the new system, it's not that onerous and makes more sense.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Something of a random thought for which I haven't thought through all the consequences, but what if the KWS revealed bounties as a reward based on your standing with factions rather than as solely a method by which to gain reputation.

Something along the lines of:
- Reveals all bounties for local factions that you are Cordial or better with.
- Reveals superpower bounties where you are Friendly or better with the superpower aligned with the controlling local faction.
- Reveals bounties for the PP power to which you are pledged (is this a thing?)
- Reveals all bounties for non-local factions that you are Allied with that are aligned with the controlling local faction.

The lore around this would be that the KWS doesn't query a galaxy-wide database, but instead the local one, with access levels based on your standings, with local and superpower data sharing for the controlling faction.
If you are Unfriendly or worse with the local controlling faction, you have no KWS access.
This might also give a reason for Anarchies being a safe space for bad guys because the controlling faction wouldn't have a KWS database.
As a bonus, it also brings one module back closer in line with an Elite principle that I personally believe should be stuck to more broadly - nothing travels faster than a pilot in a ship.

This would still be a nerf but it's one that generates a Bounty Hunter career with a reason to travel around broadly gaining rep. and would reward being reknowned in the local area with good rep. across the board.
Conversely, it would also be a detriment to those who garner negative rep. with factions, making it a force multiplier when it comes to role playing.
You couldn't suddenly switch from pirating a faction to handing in bounty claims with the same faction, you'd have to restore your rep by other means first.
You could also role play the whole Fed. v Imperial thing, pirating one while claiming bounties for the other.

NPC bounty hunters could also have these varying access levels according to their combat rank - with higher ranked NPCs more likely to have broader KWS access.

The access levels might also be tweaked based on BGS state.
E.g. During a Lockdown, all access restrictions are lifted - they just want the bad guys dead, no questions asked.

I think the main thing I'm missing is a KWS mechanism for uncontrolled systems - perhaps returning any Allied faction bounties would work there but it bends the lore on how it should work.

 

[raymondo the great]

There are so many top posts in the last few pages that I'm reping as much as I can

But this one stands out both for the amusement factor and the excellent explanation of several fairly obvious downsides to what the devs are proposing that really shouldn't need explaining at all!

I can see the changes having a significant impact on the background sim.

Take the proposed amended changes whereby say bounties are generated for all the factions that are signed up members of the controlling factions parent superpower.

This has the potential to turn systems into sterile homogeneous zones where factions not connected to the relevant superpower are shot into insignificance by players bounty hunting in res sites.

As an example take this made up system, Ill call it Samarco, its made up of the following factions.

Church of the space loach, Federation aligned controlling faction
Beige cowboy traders federation
Dont panic independents
No eta no guarantees Alliance
Naughty boiz anarchy.

Because the controlling faction is fed, the independents and alliance would gain nothing from bounty hunters, hence bgs players can manipulate the system easily by going into that system and just killing wanted npcs. The none fed factions could quickly find their system influence status reduced to single figure percentages, thereby forcing them to lose stations. The fed factions would conversely have an effective monopoly.

This situation would be further affected by powerplay as that also favours certain faction types.

I think that we could be replacing the legacy C&P murder exploit whereby commanders could easily cause lockdowns by killing cops and innocent npc's with one whereby the worm is turned and now its bounty hunters wiping out factions that dont follow their chosen superpower.

Personally hope you can do some internal modelling on test servers to see how this could affect the BGS.

 

[raymondo the great]

Except the following suggestion from Sandro would prevent faction loss if you used the KWS (except for anarchy factions):

The suggestion you quote is more Sandro spitballing than a fleshed out proposal though isn't it?

And not losing rep for killing criminals would obviously be a good start...but there would still be the issue of not gaining with factions not aligned to the controlling major power etc

 

[Ralph Vargr]

The Beige Warrant Scanner. The Name Of This Mess (shamelessly stolen from The Other Thread).

 

[Spacegamejunkie]

The New C&P system is what causes All the Problems with the KWS, and other elements of Game Play.

Only one change needs to be made, to bring everything back in line for All, Commanders NOT Ships, are Criminals.
This change is in Line with the Idea that the "Gun, Truck, or Ship" did the Crime, which is Total Nonsense.

Change this One Basic thing in C&P, and all the other Problems as with the KWS, goes away.

If you think the Bounties in your new system is too much, then cut the Amount at the Detention Center,
for Good Behavior, or some other Mechanic, like Community Service to reduce the Amount.

As for me, I feel that those who Do the Crime, should Pay the Dime, which is the whole Idea behind C&P in the First Place.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

The Beige Warrant Scanner. The Name Of This Mess (shamelessly stolen from The Other Thread).

You already lose rep with a faction for killing wanted ships from that Faction......so I'm really failing to understand what your complaint is.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

You already lose rep with a faction for killing wanted ships from that Faction......so I'm really failing to understand what your complaint is.

And, you make up for it, currently, by killing *all* wanted ships. It evens out, and eventually raises rep with *all* factions.

I'm Allied with all factions in my home system, and most systems within 20 light years because of the KWS.

And, I don't play the BGS.

 

[EvoBeardy]

Forgive my ignorance on this particular issue;
Will NPCs also be under the scrutiny of the new C&P then? Will an NPC that kills a PC/NPC have the crimes perma-stick and be vetted under the same notoriety scheme?
Will we see ATR swoop in for Notorious NPCs?

If yes, that's pretty cool I guess.

If no, why not have the new C&P for player-tagged crimes only and the current system for NPCs? That way the KWS works as intended for NPCs, and your suggested alterations can be if the KWS is used in PVP Bounty Hunting altercations?

Yes it's two extra lots of coding (that will have to exist by "if certain conditions are met"), but surely that'd be less strain on the system than having thousands of NPCs in the "Detention Centre" and ATR spawning all over the place?

 

[UFO Reality]

Sorry Mr Sandro Samarco but I know you will read this thread and I have a suggestion that may fix a lot of issues when it comes to PVP and since you are the man with the burden of making this game work out, I figured that this may work for balancing the game with less need for engineering nerfs. With all respect, I know you have a hard job figuring a lot of things out but I feel strongly that this is a good fix for the imbalance in game and also a direct karma system. I can see that every change that is made to the game has consequences and needs a lot of care and testing so I respect anything that is done by you and your team to improve the game. You can take this suggestion or can it but I had to push it. I will probably cop a lot of salt for doing this but #*#@ it.

Wouldn't it be good if CMDRs could award other CMDRs credits and issue bounties.
As the title suggests. I think player to player credit transactions and bounty tasking would totally make this game a Game of the Year nominee if there was such a thing.

Frontier Developments can live up to its name as I haven't heard of any multiplayer game that has this.

How I think it should be done.

1] ONLY a high naval ranked CMDR has the feature to issue bounty kill orders against another CMDR. The contractor must be of the same Powerplay faction as issuer. (This is to ensure game longevity, some complexity and PP factional relevance)

2] For every bounty issued. The issuing CMDR has to pay a Pilot's federation fee of X to register the contract. (credit sink and decision making)

3] The bounty reward amount is set by the issuer and the Pilot's federation will hold all credits including reward as escrow. ( lock-in contract )

4] The CMDR who has bounty issued against them will be notified of the contract by Pilot's federation and will be also given the name of the issuer and the contractor/s. (just to add some suspense/anger/fear bwahahaha)

5] The Pilot's federation can disclose the current docked position of the Issuer the Contractor/s and the Target for a nominated fee of X and only, if any parties are docked in any PP controlled territories regardless of faction.(jurisdiction)
This feature can be queried x amount of times with a cool-down of 5 minutes between queries. (help for bounty hunter and also to give the target a chance of evasion)

6] If contract is terminated/cancelled by issuer then all credits held by pilot's federation will be forfeit and kept by the pilot's federation. Contractor's will be awarded 25% of nominated reward and split for multiple pilots. (pays for inconvenience)

7] Every bounty contract issued has a sunset period of x time. (some urgency and further incentive for evading bounty hunters)

8] If bounty is unclaimed within the time limit then reward credit held in escrow will be refunded less 25%. Issuing fee is forfeit. (This is to make decision making a little trickier)

9] The target can file a counter bounty kill order as revenge or as a counter if they qualify for the feature. (bwahahaha evil twists....)

ESTIMATED EFFECT ON GAMEPLAY:

Player Factions would like this as a way to secure their territories.

Gankers and Griefers will have something to deal with and will probably be less motivated to do what they do.

You can contract a good fighter CMDR to dish out some punishment against someone who is bullying you if you have done the grind for rank.

Incentives to grind for rank.

High naval ranking CMDR vs CMDR drama and suspense when there is a counter bounty issued.

A good and fun way to earn credits for bounty hunters and a nice reward for good combat pilots.

Adds the thrill of being hunted to the game much more than the senseless interdictions.

Adds extra layer to the game without the expense and use of time organizing new artwork and designs.

To my knowledge, no other game has this and it would suit Frontier's name as pioneering in the game development gig.

CAUTION: This advice is free...No promises No guarantees...Hang on...Iv'e heard that somewhere before...

EDIT ADDED: CMDRs who initiates/finances the kill bounty should be able to post a line stating the reason for contract being initiated and it can be read by all involved in the contract.

THIS COULD ALSO BE USED AGAINST COMBAT LOGGERS IF THE GAME/SERVER CAN DETECT A DROPOUT DURING A PVP BATTLE/SESSION ALLOWING A HYPOTHETICAL "COMBAT LOGGING REASON FOR BOUNTY ISSUED" OPTION IN A HYPOTHETICAL MENU OF REASONS FOR BOUNTY ISSUED.

Somewhat related to kill warrant scanner. Sorry for interruption wall of text.

 

[Mephane]

And, you make up for it, currently, by killing *all* wanted ships. It evens out, and eventually raises rep with *all* factions.

I'm Allied with all factions in my home system, and most systems within 20 light years because of the KWS.

And, I don't play the BGS.

This is also why any "does the old thing in some manner, but only if <rep is above X>/<faction fulfills condition Y> fall flat. When you have to grind some rep in order to be able to grind rep as a bounty hunter, the system is failure by design.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

This is also why any "does the old thing in some manner, but only if <rep is above X>/<faction fulfills condition Y> fall flat. When you have to grind some rep in order to be able to grind rep as a bounty hunter, the system is failure by design.

While I'm largely in favour of keeping the current KWS mechanism, don't we need to think a bit harder to add some depth to careers in the game.
Is it so hard to buy into a system whereby you'd require some kind of standing with a faction before they'd pay out?

Think Bail Bond licensing rather than turning up with a dozen ears on a string.

 

[wstephenson]

There is an alternative. Leave the KWS as it is, and let murderers carry the risk of being stung as part of the consequences of crime.

If you cant do the time....

Agreed. It seems that a well-understood system(KWS) is being modified because of its effects on another system (criminal player rebuy). Why not fix the latter system? Anyway, there will be a general amnesty in 3.0, and us naughty Commanders know that bounties are ship-bound, so racking up huge bounties in multiple superpowers with one ship is for the foolish or the cocky.

Perhaps it would be helpful to allow us to visualise the volumes of space where we are Wanted on our current ship on the Galaxy Map?

Perhaps, after detection and destruction, let us choose not to pay some non-responsible-jurisdiction bounties, but the ship in question is impounded until these are paid off? Orange Asbo Sidewinder available at all reputable detention facilities.

EDIT: I really find the 2nd proposal's suggestion of making KWS in Anarchies ineffective highly unintuitive and against the bounty hunter trope of tracking down your target into the badlands. Please don't do it.

 

[Starender]

Anyway, as long as we don't have any effective way to track ships/people, this whole KWS redone is a waste of time and resources

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

Anyway, as long as we don't have any effective way to track ships/people, this whole KWS redone is a waste of time and resources

a question with that would be actually - what happens to the "most wanted" station galnet articles with the C&P change?
will they list the ships there instead?

 

[ilo]

I think that we could be replacing the legacy C&P murder exploit whereby commanders could easily cause lockdowns by killing cops and innocent npc's with one whereby the worm is turned and now its bounty hunters wiping out factions that dont follow their chosen superpower.]

Or just let the criminal pay the whole galaxy-wide bounty when they are killed. I don't understand what is wrong with this.

 

[Shrapnel316]

Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.
  • E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.
• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.
• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

I like your suggestion, just make sure that all of the bounties found that do NOT legitimize attack in the current system are clearly marked as such, displaying some sort of warning that it is a crime to claim said bounty in the current system. Maybe even have different sound effects for each finished scan result:

Sound effect one: Scan finished and you are cleared to claim bounty on the current target

Sound effect two: Scan finished, there are bounties on this target but it is a crime to engage in this system. (maybe you can follow the targets wake until he ends up in a system he is wanted in?)

Sound effect three: no bounties found on current target.

Other than that I think your suggestion works for me.

 

[wstephenson]

Another thought about Proposal #2's KWS-free Anarchies: what happens to griefers at CGs in Anarchies now (eg at Maia)?

 

[Sole Hunter]

What a pile of mess, you devs need to go back to the drawing board and make this less complicated.