Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Hello Commanders!

We’ve been going through the feedback for the Kill Warrant Scanner (as always, thank you for your input!) and wanted to clarify why the module has changed, as well as float an idea for your consideration.

[deleted for brevity]

That being said, we are considering (and just that, no ETA or guarantee, this is just something we’re mulling over) a change to the KWS.

It’s somewhat significant, so we’d like to get some feedback on the concept before deciding any next step.


Kill Warrant Scanner Serving Suggestion

• Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.
  • E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions.
• What’s more, the KWS scan will *legitimise* attack against the scanned ship for you and any wingmen. This freedom to attack will expire once the target leaves the location, via supercruise, hyperspace jump or the like.
• The KWS will detect all Interstellar bounties on a target vessel. However, it does not legitimise attack, so you still will have to break the law to collect them if the Interstellar bounty is for a different superpower than the current jurisdiction is alinged to.

This change would bring the Kill Warrant Scanners closer to its original specification, especially regarding earning potential, improve it in some contextually appropriate situations by legitimising attack, limit its power where appropriate by hiding non-local independent bounties and fit neatly within the lore of how the game deals with criminality and factions.

So now, over to you. Do you think this proposal give the KWS enough kick? Does it punish/threaten criminals too much? Is the mechanic clear enough? In short, have a gander and tell us what you think. A final reminder, this is just a suggestion that we're looking at, not a definite plan.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

Sandro,

Thank you for listening to our feedback and giving us this response. Here is my constructive response:

First, I understand why this change happened. And if I have to choose (not that I'm being given the choice, just saying...) between the new C&P system and a crippled KWS or the current C&P system and the current KWS, I choose the new C&P system and crippled KWS. The new C&P system is well designed and will be a good improvement to the game.

I also understand why you need to change the KWS in regards to how it "reveals" bounties on players ships. I'm fine with that. Honestly, I have no stake in that issue as I don't do PVP. So you can check with those that do for feedback on that.

As for how it effects PVE, without any proposed changes, the KWS is now pointless. We only get one bounty - local superpower or local controlling group - regardless of whether we KWS scan or not. If the money total goes up with a KWS scan, it didn't seem like it was that much of an improvement. So when 3.0 goes live - since your proposed modifications will only go forward later - I'll just be moving all my KWS modules (most have Fast scan G5) to storage.

Your proposed change below doesn't go far enough:

"Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.

• E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions. "

Currently, when we KWS scan a PVE target we can get bounties for any/all the local factions - whether aligned with a superpower or independent - as well as bounties with other superpowers. This allows us to gain rep with all (almost, anarchy tends to be pain) local factions via bounty hunting as well as maintain rep with all the superpowers. Your proposed change is better than it will be in 3.0 - only local superpower OR local controlling faction - but it doesn't go far enough. Still, thanks for at least suggesting a compromise improvement.

Without any change, bounty hunters are going to be disinclined to hunt in systems that they allied status with multiple local factions. Killing Wanted ships will cause Reputation loss with those non-controlling factions, since there is no bounty to turn in to them to offset the loss. Your proposed solution helps somewhat, as now we could get bounties for the superpower aligned local factions. However, in most systems, local factions aligned with the controlling super power usually make up only 20%-50% of the factions. Also, I'm not sure how your change would affect systems with factions aligned with two or even all three of the superpowers. Perhaps, as further change to offset bad side-effects of this change, you could reduce the amount of reputation lost when we kill a faction's WANTED ship. Currently, the only way you can kill a factions ships with impunity is in a CZ - where you can also earn combat bonds to gain rep with the opposing faction. With no bounties to offset the loss of killing a faction's wanted ships, the only "safe" way to gain faction rep via combat will be by doing CZs. That is a bummer.

Anyway, I appreciate you looking into this. As I said before, I have no problem with the PvP changes and like the new C&P system (now that the Interstellar factors are no longer on Onionhead and spiking prices). I just don't like the KWS change which will greatly affect the ability of one to bounty hunt to gain (or maintain) reputation.

Thanks for your consideration.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander sollisb!

Sandro, some clarification if possible;

Sample; NPC killed has 100k in Fed, and 47k in emp. If I kill in a fed juristriction I get 100k and lose out on the 47k, likewise if I kill the NPC in Emp I lose the 100k Fed bounty?

This means as per current situation, we're (PvE Centric players) losing out on bounties we get now. ie: in the above example; I get 147k

Yes. On the other hand, you can legitimately attack and claim an Empire bounty when in any Empire aligned jurisdiction. You can also legally claim all independent bounties in any independent system, without triggering any crimes. And in fairness, we can look at fine tuning the way that tertiary bounties are generated to mitigate potential loss (by increasing the change of additional bounties being generated for aligned superpowers).

 

[rootsrat]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

I think I liked the previous proposal better. Interstellar bounties were a really cool concept and I personally liked it a lot. You could become a criminal wanted in the whole Empire or Federation. With this new proposal this won't be a possibility if I understand correctly?

 

[Marcus Tullius]

Let me say it again:

I cannot see any necessity of changing present KVS but removing the opportunity to use it for gaining reputation with factions thus increasing the grind. No more bounty hunting for unlocking permit locked systems ladies: "resistance is useless!". Sandro will throw tons of dust in our eyes about PvP issues, but will remain totally blind for 23441212352 posts in this thread related to reputation with factions. Guess what the main goal of KVS 3.0 changes is. "RESISTANCE IS USELESS!"

BTW, I don’t mind the changes if I don’t lose faction reputation when I kill wanted ship belonging to lawful faction.

 

[Starlear]

From a PvE perspective, the last few patches have really made Bounty Hunting a poor earner compared to other methods. The KWS changes will reduce that even further.

Please consider increasing bounties or adding toughs ships with higher than normal payouts to keep it a competitive earner.

 

[g.eoff]

I only use the KWS for PvE. Bottom line is my credit and reputation rewards will be reduced.

 

[Ra'Kaan]

The very first time I saw a KWS I expected that it would allow me to scan ostensibly Clean NPC ships to see if they had a hidden bounty...and then if they had, I'd have the right to blow the crap out of them there and then because, you know, I'd bought a Kill Warrant Scanner right? And I was a member of the prestigious Pilots' Federation. So...shouldn't that KWS give me a warrant to discover criminals and shoot them?

Like a sort of galactic FBI agent who can cross jurisdictions to claim a bounty. Because I'm a member of the Pilots' Federation, a CMDR, and not a local beat cop. That's got to count for something, surely?

But...no. Pretty much its entire purpose was just to let me see if a guy who I already knew was wanted turned out to be even more wanted.

This, THIS, exactly THIS!

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Daniel Cloudsifter!

Sandro,

Thank you for listening to our feedback and giving us this response. Here is my constructive response:

First, I understand why this change happened. And if I have to choose (not that I'm being given the choice, just saying...) between the new C&P system and a crippled KWS or the current C&P system and the current KWS, I choose the new C&P system and crippled KWS. The new C&P system is well designed and will be a good improvement to the game.

I also understand why you need to change the KWS in regards to how it "reveals" bounties on players ships. I'm fine with that. Honestly, I have no stake in that issue as I don't do PVP. So you can check with those that do for feedback on that.

As for how it effects PVE, without any proposed changes, the KWS is now pointless. We only get one bounty - local superpower or local controlling group - regardless of whether we KWS scan or not. If the money total goes up with a KWS scan, it didn't seem like it was that much of an improvement. So when 3.0 goes live - since your proposed modifications will only go forward later - I'll just be moving all my KWS modules (most have Fast scan G5) to storage.

Your proposed change below doesn't go far enough:

"Upon a successful scan, the KWS will detect every bounty for factions aligned with the same superpower as the faction controlling the current jurisdiction.

• E.g. if you’re in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial aligned faction, then the KWS will detect every bounty on the scanned ship issued by all Imperial aligned factions. "

Currently, when we KWS scan a PVE target we can get bounties for any/all the local factions - whether aligned with a superpower or independent - as well as bounties with other superpowers. This allows us to gain rep with all (almost, anarchy tends to be pain) local factions via bounty hunting as well as maintain rep with all the superpowers. Your proposed change is better than it will be in 3.0 - only local superpower OR local controlling faction - but it doesn't go far enough. Still, thanks for at least suggesting a compromise improvement.

Without any change, bounty hunters are going to be disinclined to hunt in systems that they allied status with multiple local factions. Killing Wanted ships will cause Reputation loss with those non-controlling factions, since there is no bounty to turn in to them to offset the loss. Your proposed solution helps somewhat, as now we could get bounties for the superpower aligned local factions. However, in most systems, local factions aligned with the controlling super power usually make up only 20%-50% of the factions. Also, I'm not sure how your change would affect systems with factions aligned with two or even all three of the superpowers. Perhaps, as further change to offset bad side-effects of this change, you could reduce the amount of reputation lost when we kill a faction's WANTED ship. Currently, the only way you can kill a factions ships with impunity is in a CZ - where you can also earn combat bonds to gain rep with the opposing faction. With no bounties to offset the loss of killing a faction's wanted ships, the only "safe" way to gain faction rep via combat will be by doing CZs. That is a bummer.

Anyway, I appreciate you looking into this. As I said before, I have no problem with the PvP changes and like the new C&P system (now that the Interstellar factors are no longer on Onionhead and spiking prices). I just don't like the KWS change which will greatly affect the ability of one to bounty hunt to gain (or maintain) reputation.

Thanks for your consideration.

So, if I'm following this, what would you say if part of the KWS functionality was to stop reputation loss for any ship that is wanted?

 

[Controllerface]

Ok.. let's back up a bit here..

If the problem leaving the KWS as-is, in the new C&P system, is that if it applies to players it creates a broken system.. why not have the NEW KWS changes only apply to players, and leave the existing logic for NPCs?

Lore-wise, maybe there's some contract with the pilots federation that ensures kill warrants work differently for CMDRs vs other folks?

 

[CMDR _BigJay_]

Hello Commander Daniel Cloudsifter!



So, if I'm following this, what would you say if part of the KWS functionality was to stop reputation loss for any ship that is wanted?

Many of us use KWS to build reputation to obtain system permits, or sometimes just generate reputation with minor factions in order to get better missions on the mission board. Or to support a specific player minor faction.

Not losing rep for a ship that has a bounty is certainly a plus though.

 

[sollisb]

Sandro,

If I may

I log in nightly and I head for my local HazRez, and pew pew some naughty NPCs. I get back to station and claim my bounties.

I have no interest in the BGS, I have no interest in faction. All I'm interested in is 'show me the credits' and I'm a happy bounty hunter.

The proposed change, effects my pocket in a huge way.

If the proposed changes make it to Live, I don't see me having any interest in logging in. And now pause.. I am not making threats or anything like that. What I'm saying is that this change is so radical to the current system, as to make me lose interest. I wonder; How many others feel like this.

I really, really hope, this can be adjudicated in a fair way for all, both PvE and PvP. Obviously, PvP needs to be addressed, but, not to the detriment of a large PvE player base.

cheers

o7

 

[Turjan]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

I'm sorry, becomes a what now? A "force multiplier"? And does the new KWS come with a huge manual explaining what a phrase like that actually means for the jobbing Cmdr?

And let's see... Independents are now Superpowers within their own systems, and magically the KWS suddenly becomes inoperative the moment you enter an Anarchy system.

And you still lose rep with minor factions for killing ships they potentially want dead, but are never going to get paid for because they're too minor to show up on "Scanner Bob's Best Bounties Board".

And no interstellar bounties....
So - what exactly, may I ask, is the point of having a KWS at all now? I thought the entire point of its existence was to check galactic databases and crosscheck if the guy under the reticle "has the death sentence on twelve systems" which is what a Bounty Hunter would want to know.

Basically as far as I can see, these changes make the entire raison d'etre for the KWS utterly meaningless. Which is bizarre, because the proposed notion of minor faction bounties being kicked down the importance list (hence leading to loss of rep with those factions as several posters here have pointed out) seems to me to be exactly the kind of problem with the new C&P system that the KWS could've been used to mitigate.

I'm a complete loss to understand the whole point of these revisions I have to say - it feels like the logic of if enough numbers are thrown at the problem, some of them will somehow stick and manage to improve it.

 

[Starender]

Hello Commander sollisb!



Yes. On the other hand, you can legitimately attack and claim an Empire bounty when in any Empire aligned jurisdiction. You can also legally claim all independent bounties in any independent system, without triggering any crimes. And in fairness, we can look at fine tuning the way that tertiary bounties are generated to mitigate potential loss (by increasing the change of additional bounties being generated for aligned superpowers).

Its ok if you increase individual bounties to counter the nerf (to a profession that actually get so few for so much work and danger)

 

[Sylow]

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

.
On the positive: i think this would make the idea of sabotaging CGs by BGS manipulation even harder. But based on some feedback here, that's a very theoretical threat and not to be practically feared, anyway. (Not being an active BGS-manipulator i couldn't say, but the feedback seems plausible. )
.
Now on the bad side: the suggestion cuts down on where people will hunt and how they will do it.
.
Part of playing a bounty hunter is to be legal. If you're a criminal, there's other ways to do that than working for the law. So let's compare:
.
- In the currently life system, the bounty distribution and the reputation system usually results in People being in good standing with most factions, with the exception of a few criminal factions. (And yes, there's some systems where i brought the criminals to bad enough reputation that they attacked me on sight. And it might be just me, but i even consider it a drawback that the negative reputation with them decays over time. )
.
- In the first system suggested in this thread, maintaining positive reputation already is significally harder. The more factions there are in a system, the worse it is for bounty hunting.
.
- The later suggestion is kind of a lateral shift. If you pick your system carefully, which means that the controlling faction has to belong to a superpower and no other superpower is present in the system, you'll only now break your reputation with more than one independent faction.
.
I think the limitations i gave show the real drawback of the new suggestion. Most bounty hunters will relocate to new systems, where most (but not all) of the factions belong to one superpower and no other superpower is present at all. Doing anything else would be contraproductive, aka "stupid".
.
Mind you, from an in-game point of view, the concept of bounties only being cashed in from all factions belonging to the same superpower makes perfect sense. Looking at boundaries and allegiances it's even awesome: you give some Feds the well deserved beating, then return to imperial space and nobody will ever trouble you for it.
.
The very same is true for PvP-ers and pirates: you wreck havoc in Imperial and Federation space? Now, as long as you behave well in the Aliance, you're still perfectly welcome and no bounty hunter will ever attack you there.
.
So there's a lot of good to be said about this new suggestion. I just wonder if anything could be done to eliminate the problem of bounty hunting in systems with mixed superpower presence? I have to ponder some more, as i don't see an immediate fix for that.
.

 

[SushiCW]

So bounty hunters that attack you would *not* get a bounty, and defending yourself would make you a criminal?

That sounds excellent and long overdue. Yes please!

 

[Sylow]

So, if I'm following this, what would you say if part of the KWS functionality was to stop reputation loss for any ship that is wanted?

.
Awesome! That actually would fix the last issue i see with the new suggestion.
.

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Hello Commanders!

We've been discussing the Kill Warrant Scanner a lot today.

I'm about to start another trawl through this thread for another round of feedback (wish me luck), so in the meantime, I want to put something else out for you to chew over. It's another serving suggestion. At face value it sounds very much like the initial proposal, but there are significant differences. Have a think about how you currently use the KWS, and how you might need to change your tactics to get the same, or similar results (and of course, look for elements that you think this suggestion does not accommodate).

* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction.

* Independents, for the purposes of the KWS become a superpower (as in they've all signed a treaty for KWS usage).

* A successful KWS scan reveals all bounties for factions aligned with the superpower controlling the current jurisdiction:

** All Federal bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by a Federal faction.

** All Empire bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Imperial faction.

** All Alliance bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an Alliance faction.

** All independent bounties are detected when in a jurisdiction controlled by an independent faction.

* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals.

* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected.

* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them.

I didn't see this until after my initial reply. This is a better proposed change. However, there are still some issues:

1. So in a system with local factions aligned with more than one super power, only the controlling super powers factions (and independent factions) get bounties? That seems a bit harsh for the opposing factions, but makes sense in a weird sort of way.
2. I don't understand this: "* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction."
3. "* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals." Currently, a KWS is the only way you can get bounties at all in Anarchy system. While this change will result in a loss of those bounties, it actually makes more sense. It makes Anarchy systems safe (relatively) havens for criminals.
4. "* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected." Um, I'm actually opposed to this if NPCs have KWS. This would mean we could come under fire for bounties incurred in a system far, far away (and unrelated in affiliation). Thus if we commit any kind of crime anywhere, we're all going to be forced to flee to Anarchy systems. That's not good.
5. "* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them." This could be problematic. Currently the only effective way to maintain Superpower rep is through bounties you turn in for them. It's WAY more effective than reputation gained from missions or trading with locally aligned factions. However, if we can see that the target has a super power bounty BEFORE we KWS scan them, we could choose to just kill the target for that and forego the KWS scan. As long as we have a choice, I guess this is ok.

Overall, I think this is a much better suggestion.

Thanks again for staying involved!

 

[Eidolon]

Thanks for the update Sandro.

Not keen on the KWS changes myself but if you have to roll with it that's fine.
At least now I know when 3.0 drops I can remove the KWS from my BH ships and fit another Point Defence or Shield Booster

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Hello Commander Daniel Cloudsifter!



So, if I'm following this, what would you say if part of the KWS functionality was to stop reputation loss for any ship that is wanted?

OMG, my first direct response from a dev!

Yes, that would be a very effective step in curbing reputation loss. It would be like us filing the extra "paper work" to legitimize the kill to prevent that faction from being angry with us. Yes, a very good step indeed!

 

[SushiCW]

Killing Wanted ships will cause Reputation loss with those non-controlling factions, since there is no bounty to turn in to them to offset the loss.

This, to me, seems like a positive thing. It's always bothered me that I can kill wanted ships for a faction all day and the faction never becomes hostile to me.