"* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected." Um, I'm actually opposed to this if NPCs have KWS. This would mean we could come under fire for bounties incurred in a system far, far away (and unrelated in affiliation). Thus if we commit any kind of crime anywhere, we're all going to be forced to flee to Anarchy systems. That's not good.
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Nah. Actually it's perfect, as long as you pay a little attention. Commit all your crimes in Federation space, and you'll still be perfectly fine anywhere outside of the Federation.
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Coicidentally that's as close to a Privateer as you can get. If you on the other hand step on all factions toes, you're a pirate and deserve any trouble heading for you.
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Personally I would make KWS work the same across the board and it pulls all bounties on a scan. If you want to balance it out maybe have the bounties take time to come in base on distance from where they are. This would mean the KWS is talking over the GalNet checking bounty boards etc for this ship. This time limit should not be long we are talking about seconds and minutes and not larger. This would mean Bounty Hunter will have to judge if they take their time and might lose out of the bounty or if they should go fast knowing that the target is going to run. PvE crowd would get the full bounties as most NPCs do not run until hull hits a certain % and PvP well that would all depend. Someone who has so many bounties that the billions they have won't help would try to run or take a gamble and try to win the fight.
For players I don't care if its too tough they did the crime and got caught they should pay for it. Killing other players in this game doesn't hurt much even in the new system. This is the reason people gank they know the punishment is worth the crime. If you make crime really hurt they might stop and think about it first, well some of them might.
This, to me, seems like a positive thing. It's always bothered me that I can kill wanted ships for a faction all day and the faction never becomes hostile to me.
As someone who lives in the HazRez, I'm forever getting messages about faction loss. Not that i care about it
let's go back in time; BH arrives in texas and see a bounty for Big Dawg McGraw for $10k, he then goes to some other county and see another bounty for Big Dawg McGraw for $3k. He kills Big Dawg MgGraw and claims both bounties. Simples..
Re single bounty payouts: Could you have it that the notoriety level of the criminal acts as a multiplier for the claimed bounty? So a level 10 perp would net x 10 the bounty of a x 1 chump? NPCs could be assigned levels and a KWS could allow us to see this value and decide.
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Nah. Actually it's perfect, as long as you pay a little attention. Commit all your crimes in Federation space, and you'll still be perfectly fine anywhere outside of the Federation.
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Coicidentally that's as close to a Privateer as you can get. If you on the other hand step on all factions toes, you're a pirate and deserve any trouble heading for you.
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Agreed, IF that's the way it works. What I'm opposed to is if I commit crimes in Fed space and then go back to Imperial space, get KWS scanned by the system authorities, and then they open fire on me! I probably read too much into what he wrote.
Yes, under the current - 2.4 - system, I'm fine with that. I actually find it amusing when I'm friendly/allied with every faction in a system, save for the anarchy group(s) who all hate me because I keep blowing up their ships (they were all bad, ). However, with the new system, we won't have rep to offset the loss with the other factions, who occasionally have criminal ships.
Honestly, I would be fine with dropping the KWS Rep loss immunity when the target ship is Anarchy faction. After all, they shouldn't care how legitimate what you did was... they're anarchists! lol
I didn't see this until after my initial reply. This is a better proposed change. However, there are still some issues:
So in a system with local factions aligned with more than one super power, only the controlling super powers factions (and independent factions) get bounties? That seems a bit harsh for the opposing factions, but makes sense in a weird sort of way.
I don't understand this: "* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction."
"* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals." Currently, a KWS is the only way you can get bounties at all in Anarchy system. While this change will result in a loss of those bounties, it actually makes more sense. It makes Anarchy systems safe (relatively) havens for criminals.
"* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected." Um, I'm actually opposed to this if NPCs have KWS. This would mean we could come under fire for bounties incurred in a system far, far away (and unrelated in affiliation). Thus if we commit any kind of crime anywhere, we're all going to be forced to flee to Anarchy systems. That's not good.
"* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them." This could be problematic. Currently the only effective way to maintain Superpower rep is through bounties you turn in for them. It's WAY more effective than reputation gained from missions or trading with locally aligned factions. However, if we can see that the target has a super power bounty BEFORE we KWS scan them, we could choose to just kill the target for that and forego the KWS scan. As long as we have a choice, I guess this is ok.
Overall, I think this is a much better suggestion.
1. Yes, it is quite harsh that only the controlling faction's superpower factions show bounties. It's also very clean and has logic to it. In fairness, it's actually jurisdictional, so within specific locations, such as around starports, the KWS might be affecting different superpowers.
2. This just means that the Kill Warrant Scanner would improve your efforts working for the superpower whose faction controlled the jurisdiction.
3. Agreed, though this is very much a subjective point of view.
4. This is an interesting question. It's only bounty hunters (as far as NPCs are concerned) that would trigger this response, so the jury is out for me as to whether this would be a negative or a positive.
5. I think you're misunderstanding - if you are gaining reputation, you are gaining superpower reputation as well - nothing should change here (unless I am misunderstanding, lol).
Hello Commander Starender
I think we would have th ability to look at bounties and their values to help mitigate loss of earnings.
Hello Commander Sylow!
Of course, there is a possibility we would need to have a clause that allowed criminal factions to cause rep loss when you blew them up, KWS or not.
This, to me, seems like a positive thing. It's always bothered me that I can kill wanted ships for a faction all day and the faction never becomes hostile to me.
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It depends. I mean, when i go hunting in the foodie system, currently controlled by the Chilly Cooks, i detect a ship from the Sushi chefs. The Sushi Chefsship is wanted. I scan it and find that there's a pile of other bounties on it. After shooting it down, i found that among all vouchers i got, there's also one from the Sushi Chefs. Still i get a reputation drop?
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At the same time i agree that it'll be a bit sad, that after a long days work of hunting down the Pizza Mafia, they still act as if nothing happened. Which makes me wonder: do factions have an internal "criminal flag"? I mean, when i check the mission boards, it's always quite clear that some factions have a mostly legal basis, while others rely on crime. If there is anything like the "criminal flag", how about this: The KWS prevents reputation loss with any -legal- faction. If one of their member is wanted, he obviously overstepped some boundaries. If a faction is somehow considered criminal, the reputation would still decrease.
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Thus an active bounty hunter could find himself kill on sight by all ships of a criminal faction, while not loosing reputation with legal factions.
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I have to say that is a workable solution to the reputation problem. It's not ideal, as with the current system you did tend to slowly gain rep with the non-controlling factions. On the other hand this proposal would keep rep stable even with the criminal factions. I could kinda live with that.
As someone who lives in the HazRez, I'm forever getting messages about faction loss. Not that i care about it
let's go back in time; BH arrives in texas and see a bounty for Big Dawg McGraw for $10k, he then goes to some other county and see another bounty for Big Dawg McGraw for $3k. He kills Big Dawg MgGraw and claims both bounties. Simples..
Yes, I get those messages all the time too. And under the current (2.4) system, I'm usually earning enough bounties with those "unhappy" factions that when I return to the station, they end up being happier with me than before I started. Without being able to gain bounties for them - only the controlling local faction in 3.0 (per beta) OR the local superpower) - there is no way to offset this loss, other than undertaking missions. Thus bounty hunting is demotivated in systems where you're already allied/friendly with everyone (save for the anarchy trouble makers).
This one is a sticking point for me, you would expect a proper bounty hunter to be exactly the sort of person to dive into anarchies in search of bounties from other systems whose police forces don't have jurisdiction there. You would probably want to tweak the NPC AI in anarchies to reflect this though, by making them generally less happy to be scanned on principle and *much* less happy to be scanned if they're wanted. If anything anarchies should be more rewarding on a per-bounty basis because you have to manually scan every ship to find out if they're wanted, like those NPC ones who hang out in nav beacons all the time do, and because it's an anarchy even clean pilots might shoot back if you're hassling them.
Basically I'm of the opinion that anarchy systems should still offer bounty hunters opportunity but also a much higher basic difficulty to do what they do.
This one is a sticking point for me, you would expect a proper bounty hunter to be exactly the sort of person to dive into anarchies in search of bounties from other systems whose police forces don't have jurisdiction there. You would probably want to tweak the NPC AI in anarchies to reflect this though, by making them generally less happy to be scanned on principle and *much* less happy to be scanned if they're wanted. If anything anarchies should be more rewarding on a per-bounty basis because you have to manually scan every ship to find out if they're wanted, like those NPC ones who hang out in nav beacons all the time do, and because it's an anarchy even clean pilots might shoot back if you're hassling them.
Basically I'm of the opinion that anarchy systems should still offer bounty hunters opportunity but also a much higher basic difficulty to do what they do.
This I don't understand either- the KWS is simply identifying the ship you are scanning using police databases, even in an anarchy this is the case. The only difference is that the perp can defend themselves as there are no rules.
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It depends. I mean, when i go hunting in the foodie system, currently controlled by the Chilly Cooks, i detect a ship from the Sushi chefs. The Sushi Chefsship is wanted. I scan it and find that there's a pile of other bounties on it. After shooting it down, i found that among all vouchers i got, there's also one from the Sushi Chefs. Still i get a reputation drop?
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At the same time i agree that it'll be a bit sad, that after a long days work of hunting down the Pizza Mafia, they still act as if nothing happened. Which makes me wonder: do factions have an internal "criminal flag"? I mean, when i check the mission boards, it's always quite clear that some factions have a mostly legal basis, while others rely on crime. If there is anything like the "criminal flag", how about this: The KWS prevents reputation loss with any -legal- faction. If one of their member is wanted, he obviously overstepped some boundaries. If a faction is somehow considered criminal, the reputation would still decrease.
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Thus an active bounty hunter could find himself kill on sight by all ships of a criminal faction, while not loosing reputation with legal factions.
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Alternately you could put it as "a legal bounty for a ship belonging to the same faction doesn't cause reputation loss" + "criminal factions never issue legal bounties on their own ships."
So attacking a criminal faction's ship always means rep loss with that faction. Attacking a lawful faction's ship only leads to rep loss if the ship isn't wanted by its own faction.
(I also think rep loss for attacking a faction's ships should be a lot stronger and quicker than it is, it's too hard to make proper enemies. But that's a topic for another day... )
Hello Sandro, and thanks for creating this thread.
I've nothing much to add here that hasn't already been said by multiple posters, but I was vocal in the other thread so it's only fair that I acknowledge this one.
Bottom line for me as of 6pm Thursday: the revised revised proposal is better than the revised proposal, but it still feels as though there's a lot of complication being piled onto an already convoluted system just to get the reputation or CG risk/reward balance back to where it was for those players who enjoy manipulating the BGS through PVE bounty hunting.
Have you given any consideration to the suggestion, made by many of us both here and in the original thread, that we just have two parallel KWS mechanisms, the existing one for PVE kills and the revised one for PVP? The political reach of the Pilots' Federation is the perfect tool for shoehorning this into the lore, and both code branches already exist. I don't have any more insight than has already been made public, and I'm certainly no developer, but from where I'm sitting it seems like the solution least likely to leave any player or groups of players feeling hard done by.
As an aside: I do like the idea of being able to scan clean ships and get a "licence to kill" if they're carrying an out-of-jurisdiction bounty. If this was implemented, what are the chances we might one day see the KWS functional in supercruise? I realise the game is mostly instanced and persisting the NPCs between instances can be problematic, but there's already precedent for this with the interdiction mechanism. Would it be possible for KWS-detected bounty information to persist through a subsequent interdiction as well or are there technical barriers to this?
Hello Sandro, and thanks for creating this thread.
I've nothing much to add here that hasn't already been said by multiple posters, but I was vocal in the other thread so it's only fair that I acknowledge this one.
Bottom line for me as of 6pm Thursday: the revised revised proposal is better than the revised proposal, but it still feels as though there's a lot of complication being piled onto an already convoluted system just to get the reputation or CG risk/reward balance back to where it was for those players who enjoy manipulating the BGS through PVE bounty hunting.
Have you given any consideration to the suggestion, made by many of us both here and in the original thread, that we just have two parallel KWS mechanisms, the existing one for PVE kills and the revised one for PVP? The political reach of the Pilots' Federation is the perfect tool for shoehorning this into the lore, and both code branches already exist. I don't have any more insight than has already been made public, and I'm certainly no developer, but from where I'm sitting it seems like the solution least likely to leave any player or groups of players feeling hard done by.
As an aside: I do like the idea of being able to scan clean ships and get a "licence to kill" if they're carrying an out-of-jurisdiction bounty. If this was implemented, what are the chances we might one day see the KWS functional in supercruise? I realise the game is mostly instanced and persisting the NPCs between instances can be problematic, but there's already precedent for this with the interdiction mechanism. Would it be possible for KWS-detected bounty information to persist through a subsequent interdiction as well or are there technical barriers to this?
I would totally risk paying a fine to rip an Elite FdL named "Hate" out of supercruise to give him a scan. I've noticed from the hazres that you can usually tell by ship name if they're pirates or not.
This one is a sticking point for me, you would expect a proper bounty hunter to be exactly the sort of person to dive into anarchies in search of bounties from other systems whose police forces don't have jurisdiction there. You would probably want to tweak the NPC AI in anarchies to reflect this though, by making them generally less happy to be scanned on principle and *much* less happy to be scanned if they're wanted. If anything anarchies should be more rewarding on a per-bounty basis because you have to manually scan every ship to find out if they're wanted, like those NPC ones who hang out in nav beacons all the time do, and because it's an anarchy even clean pilots might shoot back if you're hassling them.
Basically I'm of the opinion that anarchy systems should still offer bounty hunters opportunity but also a much higher basic difficulty to do what they do.
This was my thought regarding anarchy systems and the new C&P.
Just as a murderer goes where their prey is (Shinrarta, CGs, RNGineers, etc), why wouldn't a bounty hunter go where their prey is likely to be (anarchy systems in 3.0)?
As long as minor faction reputation isn't lost when killing their Wanted or there's a way to earn it back turning in bounties they issued (as in the current 2.4 system), the rest can be tweaked as/if needed.
One thing I'm curious about is the bounties on NPCs in 3.0. They don't have multiple ships.
Additional bounties on NPCs in any C&P approach (current or proposed) are random and can be structured to appear any way FD wants (ie, multiple ships, multiple factions or powers).
Why the decision to limit how much a criminal has to pay when their day of reckoning arrives? That bewilders me from a Punishment perspective.
I didn't see this until after my initial reply. This is a better proposed change. However, there are still some issues:
So in a system with local factions aligned with more than one super power, only the controlling super powers factions (and independent factions) get bounties? That seems a bit harsh for the opposing factions, but makes sense in a weird sort of way.
I don't understand this: "* The kill Warrant Scanner becomes a "force multiplier" for the superpower that is aligned with the current jurisdiction."
"* No bounties can be detected in anarchies, making them safe havens for criminals." Currently, a KWS is the only way you can get bounties at all in Anarchy system. While this change will result in a loss of those bounties, it actually makes more sense. It makes Anarchy systems safe (relatively) havens for criminals.
"* The KWS scan legitimises attack for any bounty detected." Um, I'm actually opposed to this if NPCs have KWS. This would mean we could come under fire for bounties incurred in a system far, far away (and unrelated in affiliation). Thus if we commit any kind of crime anywhere, we're all going to be forced to flee to Anarchy systems. That's not good.
"* There are no interstellar bounties - the KWS effectively subsumes this role. However, because all bounties are individual, reputation gain is retained for them." This could be problematic. Currently the only effective way to maintain Superpower rep is through bounties you turn in for them. It's WAY more effective than reputation gained from missions or trading with locally aligned factions. However, if we can see that the target has a super power bounty BEFORE we KWS scan them, we could choose to just kill the target for that and forego the KWS scan. As long as we have a choice, I guess this is ok.
1. Yes, it is quite harsh that only the controlling faction's superpower factions show bounties. It's also very clean and has logic to it. In fairness, it's actually jurisdictional, so within specific locations, such as around starports, the KWS might be affecting different superpowers.
2. This just means that the Kill Warrant Scanner would improve your efforts working for the superpower whose faction controlled the jurisdiction.
3. Agreed, though this is very much a subjective point of view.
4. This is an interesting question. It's only bounty hunters (as far as NPCs are concerned) that would trigger this response, so the jury is out for me as to whether this would be a negative or a positive.
5. I think you're misunderstanding - if you are gaining reputation, you are gaining superpower reputation as well - nothing should change here (unless I am misunderstanding, lol).
I'm guessing #2 is offsetting #5. Currently, in 2.4, you can gain bounties/faction with superpower aligned local factions all day long and this won't move your rep with the super power one bit (unlike missions, trading, etc.). The only way to gain super power rep is to turn in bounties specifically for Empire, Federation, or Alliance. If we'll now gain super power rep for turning in bounties for their allied factions (and hopefully with a multiplier) then that offsets the loss of specific Interstellar Super Power bounty.
If #4 only applies to bounty hunters, then that's fine. I'm ok with a Federation bounty hunter coming after me in Imperial space (or vice versa). I was just worried I'd have to dodge all System Authorities EVERYWHERE if I had any infractions on file. Honestly, I would think the SAs in the Empire would give a subtle thumbs up for causing problems for the Feds (or vice versa). In all honesty, my infractions are usually just fines or the very rare murder bounty due to overzealous/green AI SLF pilot's mistakes.
As I mentioned elsewhere, this sounds fine to me too. I like the idea of the KWS legitimizing the kill of a wanted ship, and preventing faction loss. The idea that Anarchy groups would thumb their noses at this at you'd still lose rep with them makes sense too.
