Mercs of Mikunn results after 3 weeks of effort - Also a request for documentation, in game and out

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Enride

Enride
Michael Brookes said:
Influence is per system - not per station. When certain threshholds are crossed then two minor factions can enter civil war and a change in station may occur if the losing faction owned a station.

Whichever faction owns the controlling station is deemed the controlling faction for the system.

Trading does aid the influence of a faction owning the station that trading takes place in.

Successful missions increase the influence of the issuing factioon.

Michael
Click to expand...

Michael, thanks for taking the time and shed some light onto what is going on behind the scenes. I think many who read this will, just as I, become more confident in the "work" we put into our digital careers to pay off eventually!
It also have me very excited for the future.

One question.
You say "controlling station". Does this mean that every system has one station that sets the ownership of the entire system?
So fighting for the other stations is fruitless in order to change the ownership?
 

Rennard

R
Enride said:
Michael, thanks for taking the time and shed some light onto what is going on behind the scenes. I think many who read this will, just as I, become more confident in the "work" we put into our digital careers to pay off eventually!
It also have me very excited for the future.

One question.
You say "controlling station". Does this mean that every system has one station that sets the ownership of the entire system?
So fighting for the other stations is fruitless in order to change the ownership?
Click to expand...
That was my interpretation as well.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
For the love of the 1:1 Galaxy! It would be great to have all the snippets by Mr Brookes compiled into a meaningfull "System and Faction Influence Principles" thingie!

Or some such.
 

Johnny Spaceboots

Johnny Spaceboots
Michael Brookes said:
Probably not as economy types are determined by what is in the system - although there's the possibility of terraforming being finished so the world would change it's economy.

Michael
Click to expand...

Interesting. So you've said that missions were up for a "major update," can we expect the same for the faction system, autonomy (or lack of) for factions and a significantly deeper background simulation? I feel like you guys are on the right track, but for a game so geared around PVE, and a living, evolving galaxy... I was expecting something a little bit more in depth. If you've played X3, for instance, that would be a good example. Right now the universe just doesn't feel very alive, and it seems like the only way that things can happen is if players grind enough missions to raise a painfully shallow percentage bar to a critical point. The NPC's/A.I factions have no autonomy whatsoever to produce dynamic and interesting results. The only way things change is if players intervene and grind missions, but the faction itself does not help itself.

Think of it like a grand strategy game like CK2, where the other A.I nations don't actually do anything. They don't make their own alliances, secure their own resources, raise their own armies, and invade their neighbors on their own. Instead, they sit there and wait for the player attack them, and offer the same predictable token resistance every time.

In its current form, I'm not sure that there are actually A.I with their own overarching agenda whatsoever in the game at the moment. Factions don't seem to have A.I whatsoever, so no grand A.I at that scale by the looks of it. At the smaller scale, the NPCs, those are spawned in and out of existence and have no real goals. For instance, the miners in resource collection zones don't actually mine for a profit, by taking what they collected and selling it to a station. They just sit there firing a mining laser to look like they're mining. Other games, such as X3, or Limit Theory, have these A.I's and factions with their own agendas, and that makes for exciting and dynamic gameplay.
 
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donpost

D
Enride said:
One question.
You say "controlling station". Does this mean that every system has one station that sets the ownership of the entire system?
So fighting for the other stations is fruitless in order to change the ownership?
Click to expand...

I've interpreted what's said so far to mean: which station that becomes "up for grabs" in a civil war is not something we can control. It depends on the station ownership and the hidden influence triggers.
 

Michael Brookes

Game Director
Enride said:
Michael, thanks for taking the time and shed some light onto what is going on behind the scenes. I think many who read this will, just as I, become more confident in the "work" we put into our digital careers to pay off eventually!
It also have me very excited for the future.

One question.
You say "controlling station". Does this mean that every system has one station that sets the ownership of the entire system?
So fighting for the other stations is fruitless in order to change the ownership?
Click to expand...

Yes and no. They're not pointless because ownership of a station that has a market means it can gain influence through trading which can be a big boost.

Michael
 

archeolog108

archeolog108
Michael Brookes said:
An update on this - we've identified two issues that would be causing problems here. The first is that expanding minor factions into nearby systems is causing the changes tobe applied to the wrong systems. There's also an issue where some systems aren't processing the queue of changes in a timely fashion so they haven't been applied yet. We're working on fixes for these two problems.

Michael
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply and good luck with the bug squashing. For me this is important feature, as I Role Play Anarchy Destroyer, which means I try to increase influence of non-anarchy factions in inhabited Anarchy systems. So it seems now it is a waste of time. I hope you will be successful in fixing it.
 

GlyphGryph

G
Michael Brookes said:
Yes and no. They're not pointless because ownership of a station that has a market means it can gain influence through trading which can be a big boost.

Michael
Click to expand...

Should a civil war always create conflict zones, or at least missions of some sort?

We recently had a civil war between the Cegreeth Crimson Boys and Manticore Munitions in Cegreeth that started and ended, but there was never at any point combat related missions or conflict zones, despite them having the status CIVIL WAR for about four days.

Neither faction, however, was the system faction - they were two minor factions, presumably fighting over the aforementioned Battani Dock. Neither faction offered any combat missions (or, in fact, any missions at all) during the entire civil war.

Is this the behaviour you would expect in this situation? Should players be somehow able to influence these civil wars? Should they happen at all?
 

Tas Devil

Tas Devil
Michael Brookes said:
I've said before in a similar thread that we won't provide details on how the mechanisms work. However if you amass information to demonstrate how you believe it isn't working correctly then we can take a look. I believe some people have already raised a tickets so we'll investigate these.

Michael
Click to expand...

Nothing like this attitude to further the impression that the background sim is a marketing ploy more than an actual reality.

If it was working no one would care if you provided details or not. We would be able to figure out some aspects of it from experimentation. But if we experiment now we have no way to know if what we observe is intended or not... It's quite obvious that it's buggy (hence the attempt to correct it with 1.04) and many players are starting to observe that it clearly isn't working as intended.
 
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Soda Popinski

Soda Popinski
Updated 1/27/15

Here's a compilation I made of the relevant info from Mr. Brookes, along with links to his posts supporting my interpretations.

Relevant info gathered from Michael Brookes' posts so far (10:40am PST)

Influence is "tracked" system wide (does this mean displayed system wide, with individual influence per station, or calculated system wide?)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1522823&viewfull=1#post1522823


Controlling stations are the largest one owned by the controlling faction
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&p=1526930&viewfull=1#post1526930
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526033&viewfull=1#post1526033


In order to control a system, the controlling station must be controlled by your faction. Control is taken through civil war with the current controlling faction, which can be triggered by change in influence
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&p=1526898&viewfull=1#post1526898
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526033&viewfull=1#post1526033
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1517496&viewfull=1#post1517496


Civil War is triggered through "influence movement differentials." Implies you want to increase your factions influence while decreasing the other's influence to trigger Civil War. Other states may interfere (boom?)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&page=33&p=1631533&viewfull=1#post1631533


Lock Downs have nothing to do with Civil War. No need to push to Lock Down to get Civil War. Might it be an interfering state?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&page=33&p=1631533&viewfull=1#post1631533


Civil wars are local to stations, and not system wide
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1517533&viewfull=1#post1517533


Civil wars have a cool-down period. Currently 25 days as of 1.06, and likely to drop.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&p=1517442&viewfull=1#post1517442
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&page=135&p=1640144&viewfull=1#post1640144


You need to capture the smaller stations first before getting the controlling station
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1522843&viewfull=1#post1522843


Minor factions can only be in one state at a time (e.g. Boom, Civil Unrest, Civil War, etc), no matter how many star systems the faction is in.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&page=134&p=1639947&viewfull=1#post1639947
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&page=36&p=1641690&viewfull=1#post1641690


Economic booms, like Civil War, have a cool down period.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&page=35&p=1640330&viewfull=1#post1640330


Economic booms last a maximum of about 3 weeks or when the "boom" runs out, whichever comes first. Unknown if missions may sustain an ongoing boom.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&page=35&p=1640171&viewfull=1#post1640171


Version 1.1 will not allow you to dock at stations owned by factions hostile to you. Or possibly, won't let you dock after you shoot it until you SC back. Unclear.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105117&page=13&p=1633276&viewfull=1#post1633276


Kills in conflict zones count towards influence IF you're cashing in combat bonds (choose factions on the Right panel)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&page=115&p=1592481&highlight=#post1592481


As of now, no way to do a peaceful take over, but it may come later (no ETA)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1522909&viewfull=1#post1522909


Trading makes a big boost to the influence for the faction that owns the station. Worth it to fight for the other stations to get control of the market
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526913&viewfull=1#post1526913
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526033&viewfull=1#post1526033


Successful missions increase the influence of issuing factions (seems obvious, but nice to get documentation)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526033&viewfull=1#post1526033
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1523856&viewfull=1#post1523856


The background simulation is an actual simulation, and not FD staff "faking it" (also seems obvious, but not to some)
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1524904&viewfull=1#post1524904


Missions and trading influence only carries influence in system for the faction you are working for - so trading in Mikunn won't help the Dukes's influence in HR 7327
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526555&viewfull=1#post1526555


Doing missions for one faction in a 2 faction system will raise its influence, and can trigger civil war to flip
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526619&viewfull=1#post1526619


Missions are due for an update
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94899&p=1514333&viewfull=1#post1514333


Economy types of stations don't change, as they're tied to the planet type, with the possible exception of terraforming
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526668&viewfull=1#post1526668


Stations are owned by the minor faction which controls it, as is the market. There's a bug where the market description may be wrong
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526613&viewfull=1#post1526613


The market is owned by the minor faction that owns the station
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1524888&viewfull=1#post1524888


Stations cannot be added automatically, nor can they be updated automatically
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1524950&viewfull=1#post1524950
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1523846&viewfull=1#post1523846
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1522905&viewfull=1#post1522905


Population size effects the change of influence, just not directly
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1526005&viewfull=1#post1526005


There are 2 known bugs that are affecting the background simulation - system change queue is stalling and minor faction changes are being applied to the wrong system (no fix ETA yet) - this is why we're stuck
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1525078&viewfull=1#post1525078
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1517539&viewfull=1#post1517539
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94899&p=1517237&viewfull=1#post1517237
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97577&p=1517168&viewfull=1#post1517168
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94899&p=1514363&viewfull=1#post1514363

The queue bug noted above has been fixed. The state changes to the wrong faction has been fixed
- I think I may have an example of where it didn't work as of 1/25/15
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71327&page=111&p=1584986&highlight=#post1584986
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103124&p=1598828&viewfull=1#post1598828
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103141&page=17&p=1631576&highlight=#post1631576

Edit: Walt, feel free to copy/pasta this into the OP.
 
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Soda Popinski

Soda Popinski
With all this amazing info, my question now is, if influence is system wide, how does one take over a minor station, and eventually the controlling station? It must be something separate from influence to trigger civil war.


Assuming you have a minor faction that doesn't control a minor station, I'm guessing a strategy would be to
A) Do mission for the minor faction until civil war erupts
B) Win the civil war to take over the station, giving ownership to the market
C) Do missions in the Controlling Station for your minor faction and trade at the minor station owned by your faction until civil war erupts at the major station
D) Profits


Does this make sense? Am I missing anything obvious?
 

daylan

D
Michael Brookes said:
Probably not as economy types are determined by what is in the system - although there's the possibility of terraforming being finished so the world would change it's economy.

Michael
Click to expand...

Terraforming is supposed to work without dev input? or will the terraforming station need to be manually changed?
 

donpost

D
Soda Popinski said:
With all this amazing info, my question now is, if influence is system wide, how does one take over a minor station, and eventually the controlling station? It must be something separate from influence to trigger civil war.


Assuming you have a minor faction that doesn't control a minor station, I'm guessing a strategy would be to
A) Do mission for the minor faction until civil war erupts
B) Win the civil war to take over the station, giving ownership to the market
C) Do missions in the Controlling Station for your minor faction and trade at the minor station owned by your faction until civil war erupts at the major station
D) Profits


Does this make sense? Am I missing anything obvious?
Click to expand...

I think that must be how it works from Michael's posts. We have just got to wait for the 2 issues to be fixed now.
 

Soda Popinski

Soda Popinski
ollobrains said:
no eta on fix has been given yet. If its server side its easy enough to do it at downtime
If it needs a patch it will be 1.0.5
Click to expand...

Who knows how long until the bugfix is created and tested. Just because they know what the bug is, doesn't mean there will be a fix anytime soon.
 

ollobrains

Banned
O
daylan said:
Terraforming is supposed to work without dev input? or will the terraforming station need to be manually changed?
Click to expand...

at the moment terraforming doesnt work on new planets in colonised systems * PAND solar system * is one with such a possiblit down the track, ive setup a group to boost their economy for now, micheal did say border systems that are busy with players might expand. Station needs to be changed, added manuaully currently but the devs arent doing this for some time either. So at the moment we just have station flipping and soon someone will flip a second system and we will see if they can go back into a third. Im going back to mikunn to contribute, some day trips to pand to drop off weapons. But ill just do it in the background. Fix afaik hasnt been applied yet so its still no use trying except the limited things we can do.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Soda Popinski said:
Who knows how long until the bugfix is created and tested. Just because they know what the bug is, doesn't mean there will be a fix anytime soon.
Click to expand...

U didnt really read my post did u ?

If its a server issue they can change the server code and apply a fix there - seems to be easier than a client side fix.

If it needs a patch it * could * be in 1.0.5 or later just to keep soda happy. the important fact is they are aware and working on getting it fixed at some point.

And i would guess micheal will get it done soon, otherwise players will get frustrated and it will continue to fester.
 
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