New ship: Panther Clipper

Well since colonisation started there have been many new systems so obviously the amount of materials should be higher so that it takes months of hauling to complete
I would always ask the question of "How many of those new systems are actually a single outpost bridging somewhere or where people are waiting for the end of beta, or for things to be more stable, to actually develop it?", first, before bringing up that there has been a lot of new systems since Trailblazers launched. (And I'm sure someone has in the thread after your post but I have been catching up after a few hours of absence - yes, I know, how dare I exist outside the internet)

Why, well simply, because there is more to colonizing than just slapping down an outpost and leaving the system be, so increasing the hauling amounts might not meaningfully affect new system claims but definitely slow down system development a lot. And considering a medium to large system with its supporting facilities can easily range in the hundreds of thousands of tons or close to two million if you choose to include T3 ports in the build to make the most of it (ignoring some aspects of colonization which make it redundant to build T3s as pure producers of commodities, but I don't look at them that way usually)... I really don't think it needs increasing. Of any values. Other than my valuing of the ability to commit to building a T2 primary starport at 10% a day as I do other things, but not feel like I'm sweating all along the way of doing it, all because somebody thinks chain outposts are being placed too quickly by most likely large player groups working toward somewhere more distant (which would only be marginally affected by higher construction demands).

Forcing one per week would also completely kill off any realistic possibility to do so. But I digress into off-topic territory.
I use your argument against you and say:'BECAUSE it is 3311, there are windows in a space ship'
Nobody in a tourist liner would want to find themselves in a metal box with zero ability to look outside using their own eyes for sure. That alone would excuse the existence of ship windows. Plus, everyone seems to forget safety shutters exist (why can't we use them in Elite if/when the canopy breaks, idk, I guess it's just game mechanics but I think it would make for a good tradeoff to decide between either your ability to visually see a target but be on the life support reserve timer, or purely rely on system guidance from that point onward... may even have given a reason to upgrade life support to A rated outside of roleplaying, instead of the general advice being "D rate and lightweight"). Not going to talk about synthesis here.
If you ask me, the panther clipper should've had just over 1000t hauling with a shield.
It probably isn't going to be far off from that. Should you decide to fit a class 6 shield (and the PC2 not be too heavy for it) that already reduces it to around 1,170 tons (cba to run math through my head tonight/right now) if the suspected numbers are correct, and then add maybe some hull, flight assists for the lazy or convenience, a module reinforcement and an FSD booster... you'd probably be looking at 1,100 or slightly less. Still not bad of course, but as a bandaid to colonization, not sure it's worth the money (ARX, in game credits is probably a no-brainer) unless you have additional sentimental reasons to get the thing.

I also saw the infamous P2W make an appearance... but what are you paying to win for in this case if the Panther did have (comparatively) "excessive" cargo capacity? Colonization? Contrary to the appearance some may give it, there is nothing competitive in it. It is incidental at best due to how it functions and acts as a bit of a landgrab. This would likely be no different if it had been run on a private test server first with no progress carried over past the "beta" period or initial testing.

BGS? Maybe, but diminishing returns (and possibly available demand) would quickly get in the way of just flooding a system with cargo incessantly, keeping varied action as the most effective. And Powerplay... ignoring the balance does not encourage actual competition in that system currently, there it might make a bigger difference if Frontier ever remove the bulk sales "tax" on merits instead of sitting there waiting who knows how long to be rid of all the cargo one at a time.

My concern would more lie with the knock-on effects on other parts of the game [balance] than whether person B is "winning" at the game better by buying a hauler that has whatever thousands of tons of cargo capacity.
 
Did he state, categorically, that every design decision had to be only incremental and that nothing could be developed that changed capability from that of the game on release?
Yes, designed with interiors in mind appears to have been somewhat abandoned over the years, along with Big Game Hunting on ELWs, but I may be mistaken and they'll appear soon...
if it helps you: I would not say categorically but solid enough. We even saw a lot of groundbreaking changes over the years (Guardian tech, AX tech).
As your source is an external wiki, not actually from the game, it isn't really answering my question, although it is pointing toward a 12 years old video, which is brought up with monotonous regularity to excuse any criticism...
Now your turn: Show me in the codex that revolutionary changes are allowed or being the norm in ED.
Nothing in-game dictates that it must remain stagnant as a mission statement, does it?
Nothing in-game dictates that it must remain stagnant as a mission statement because a mission statement comes from outside, i.e. the game designers.
For sure it helps when you stick to your in-game lore and (pseudo)physics. I gave some examples above when a franchise becomes somewhat random when the events and logic are bent too much and every new part of a saga contains retcons which negate central aspects of previous parts.
 
I also saw the infamous P2W make an appearance... but what are you paying to win for in this case if the Panther did have (comparatively) "excessive" cargo capacity? Colonization? Contrary to the appearance some may give it, there is nothing competitive in it. It is incidental at best due to how it functions and acts as a bit of a landgrab. This would likely be no different if it had been run on a private test server first with no progress carried over past the "beta" period or initial testing.
It's fairly simple what Pay 2 Win means with paid ships:
For new players, they can swipe their card to get instant progression and completely circumvent the issue of rebuying... and to additionally skip some of the growing pains with Engineers if they get the more expensive version.
For veterans, this matters none unless that benefit of early access is used in the context of competition, pvp or pve/bgs.

But it does mean that while you're waiting for an early access ship to be unlocked in 3 months of real time, other players will have access to a better ship than you for that time...
if time itself or this prospect personally doesn't matter to you, then of course- it can't be pay 2 win from your perspective.

But literally and objectively speaking it still is p2w because you'll ultimately be paying to circumvent game mechanics. That'll will remain a fact forever, no matter how you slice it- even if you have an endless pocket of credits.
 
Allow Optimised Racks in 2x7's and 2x8's slots then we get closer to 1,500 (double a Cutter) which is what a LOT of people were expecting, it's an easy change and fits in Lore ... you bring in Colonization which changes it to a hauling game and then deliver a new ship that doesn't help much.
Yep, this, exactly.

Although I wouldn't complain about 2k+ either lol
 
Now your turn: Show me in the codex that revolutionary changes are allowed or being the norm in ED.
There is nothing in game lore or the codex that dictates that things should change, but likewise, that they should not, in any manner, incremental or not.

The debate appears to centre around whatever the individual perceives as balance, or appropriate for their vision of the game.

So, naturally, when a contributor has a 'radical' idea to improve their game (which, of course, the same 'radical' ideas are interjected by contributors with diverse interests in gameplay) the very conservative, staid, contributors insist that it would negatively impact the game for some reason that they consider vital to the the smooth running of their game vision.

I'm selfish, I can't play as much as I used to, so naturally want to achieve more in the time I can spare for playing this game, but I shouldn't complain, really, should I?

After all, so many here are very happy to settle for less.
 
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But it does mean that while you're waiting for an early access ship to be unlocked in 3 months of real time, other players will have access to a better ship than you for that time...
if time itself or this prospect personally doesn't matter to you, then of course- it can't be pay 2 win from your perspective.

But literally and objectively speaking it still is p2w because you'll ultimately be paying to circumvent game mechanics. That'll will remain a fact forever, no matter how you slice it- even if you have an endless pocket of credits.

A temporary pay-to-win (give people early access to content for $) doesn't matter to me. In some other games they put cars, ships, weapons, gear, bases behind a paywall forever.
 
There is nothing in game lore or the codex that dictates that things should change, but likewise, that they should not, in any manner, incremental or not.

The debate appears to centre around whatever the individual perceives as balance, or appropriate for their vision of the game.

So, naturally, when a contributor has a 'radical' idea to improve their game (which, of course, the same 'radical' ideas are interjected by contributors with diverse interests in gameplay) the very conservative, staid, contributors insist that it would negatively impact the game for some reason that they consider vital to the the smooth running of their game vision.

I'm selfish, I can't play as much as I used to, so naturally want to achieve more in the time I can spare for playing this game, but I shouldn't complain, really, should I?

After all, so many here are very happy to settle for less.

We're playing a game where to fix an issue with Colonization, the population of the human race like doubled overnight after patch day. And they're talking about slow incremental change for "reasons" 🤣🤣🤣
 
If you ask me, the panther clipper should've had just over 1000t hauling with a shield. That would've been reasonable and in line with the general progression curve we've seen in cargo capacity increases among hauling/multirole ships.
I figure with a size 7 shield and a size 4 FSD booster she'll slide in at 1100 tons, not too far off.
I kind of want the Panther Clipper to be a slug like the T-9. I feel like if you want to pilot a massive cargo hauler, it needs to feel like that. A real oil tanker or super-freighter.
I'm expecting that. I think FDEV made a comment to the speed to think more like the T-9. I think it will be faster, but not by much.
I'm OK with it flying like the T-9 as long as it doesn't slide like the Cutter. The T-9 has a neat drift that bleeds energy fairly quickly. It's fun once you get the hang of it.
Wasn't it Confucius who said:

"If you don't like doing something, just don't do it."

Or was it the Dalai Lama? Anyway, whoever it was, wise words indeed.
Patient "But doctor, it hurts when I do that.*
Doctor" Then don't do that!"
You're saying I shouldn't give feedback on the PC MKII because I instead should be arguing something else. That's why it's irrelevant. I'm not sure how else to explain it.
No, go right ahead. In fact, why not slip on down Cambridge and picket the front office, maybe they'll get the message because the rest of us certainly well aware of it...
Yep, this, exactly.

Although I wouldn't complain about 2k+ either lol
Me neither!
I'm selfish
I knew it! 😉 🤣🤣🤣
 
It would be great if the agility was higher than that of the Cutter, roughly on a par with the Corvette. Then the PC2 would be ideal as a pirate-attracting cargo mission runner, a role that the Corvette currently fulfills for me because the Cutter just flies so badly.

With 5-7 boosters in the utilities, a class 7 shield and the 10 hardpoints, this should work out quite well. Given the class 7 PD, you have to be a bit more conservative with the weapons, of course.
I think it should be slow and handle like a barge … otherwise, with 10 hardpoints (3 more than the Corvette) it would seriously step on some toes, IMO.
 
Allow Optimised Racks in 2x7's and 2x8's slots then we get closer to 1,500 (double a Cutter) which is what a LOT of people were expecting, it's an easy change and fits in Lore ... you bring in Colonization which changes it to a hauling game and then deliver a new ship that doesn't help much.
Having one 8 and one 7 that are “special” messes with my OCD ... change both the C8s to C8.5 and then add size 8.5 cargo racks and be done with it.
 
Having one 8 and one 7 that are “special” messes with my OCD ... change both the C8s to C8.5 and then add size 8.5 cargo racks and be done with it.
naw naw we are missing 2 size 8 slots.... give us 2 size 8 specials and 2 size 8 normals because the back of the clipper clearly has 4 cargo racks of the same size... either that means we are missing 2 size 7s or 2 size 8s (more likely size 8s)
 
We're playing a game where to fix an issue with Colonization, the population of the human race like doubled overnight after patch day. And they're talking about slow incremental change for "reasons" 🤣🤣🤣
As compared to talking about 100% or greater increases in how ships perform for "reasons." If you don't like the ship, don't use it!
 
I think it should be slow and handle like a barge … otherwise, with 10 hardpoints (3 more than the Corvette) it would seriously step on some toes, IMO.
Even a T-10 is better armed then the PC, a Corvette is way more heavily armed
Having one 8 and one 7 that are “special” messes with my OCD ... change both the C8s to C8.5 and then add size 8.5 cargo racks and be done with it.
No, the you limit it to only being a cargo hauler.
 
I'm selfish, I can't play as much as I used to, so naturally want to achieve more in the time I can spare for playing this game, but I shouldn't complain, really, should I?

After all, so many here are very happy to settle for less.
you can give your opinion, hell you SHOULD give your opinion it's a chat forum after all . ..... you can complain to FD if you want.... but what your shouldn't do (and I am not saying you are) is accuse other players who are happy with this ship of being selfish or implying they are some how being too thick to understand why you are right and they are wrong or suggest that those players who are happy are now helping the game ultimately fail!.
for what it's worth I want the game to progress and flesh out. I want colonisation to be improved with more features.

what I don't want is a never ending wheel when FD just increase the numbers 1 day to then allow them to sell the solution to that problem by giving us a bigger bucket to fill those numbers faster. imo that is not good game design.

sure give us stuff to work for and improve slowly over time, but not by negating everything which came before. IMO for the solo player colonisation needs work. whether FD see it like this I do not know. maybe it's working as intended. Perhaps it's their idea of encouraging coop play. I hope not. but if the only answer is selling a new ship with.... was it 6x the capacity you are asking for? then what happens for the next feature and the next ship?
I would see that as quite a worrying direction for the game.
 
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My big fear for the panther clipper is that it will eat the prospector limpets that it launches, like the T-8 does, making it too inconvenient and annoying to use for mining, leaving it as just a hauler only

I have unfounded confidence/optimism that the panther clipper will work for mining, but it rests on this unknown factor, so fingers still crossed
 
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For new players, they can swipe their card to get instant progression and completely circumvent the issue of rebuying...
...
But literally and objectively speaking it still is p2w because you'll ultimately be paying to circumvent game mechanics.

"circumvent something to find a way of avoiding a difficulty or a rule."

Please look up what "circumvent" means, because this doesn't fit that definition either.
Really?
 
So a percentage (and not a large one) fewer runs to complete a project - must be an improvement in FD's eyes, I'm sure.

It is a beautiful ship, but not adventurous enough to warrant my spending real money on.

Yes, 1000-ish when kitted out to survive & thrive is better than the T-10 & Cutter, so, depending on its performance, I may part with credits for the ship, but not Arx for PJ or kit.
saving 25-35 runs is a HUGE time savings. even if a sourcing system is within one jump. You can do a round trip in about 10 minutes, so let's say 5 runs an hour, taking into account over shoots or anything costing a little bit more time. So 5-7 hours, practically a day's off or weekend day game session extra of time. I wouldn't consider that a small improvement.

EDIT: crud, I thought I posted this hours ago. I didn't hit Post Reply, whoops.
 
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