No further VR development is both expected and makes sense

[[VR] Dr Gentech]

Or as an alternative, why force the developers to spend 6 months effort on performance gains to support previous generation consoles, or current generation ones for that matter. They represent a small percentage of the overall player base so that time can be spent on fleshing out features that the remaining player base can use.

Exactly, remove the game from consoles, that will allow Devs to focus on PC development. For that matter, why not improve performance on PC by downgrading the game's resolution from 4K to 1440p? There's a very small segment of the market playing in 4K, after all. And why not end continued support for expensive peripherals like HOTAS or pedals? They take away developer resources from the core community and are only used by a minority of players. Eye tracking? In the bin, not many people use it. 90% of settings in the game aren't used by many people, so just remove any setting that isn't used by at least 95% of the playerbase, that will streamline the game and better focus development resources. FA Off? Why bother keeping it, not that many people use it, might as well remove it and free up developer resources. Player vs player combat? Remove it from the game, very few people engage in it. Fighting Thargoids? Sorry, only a few percent of people have killed a Thargoid, better luck next game. The sound design in this game can allow blind people to play significant portions of it, and yet only a small minority of gamers are blind; sounds like they should fire the sound design team, as their development effort is only helping a tiny minority of players. Oh you say that the sound design development has knock-on benefits for all players? Well too bad, this spreadsheet I'm looking at says only a tiny minority of players actually need it, say your goodbyes.


Why do people like OP have this attitude? Just cut everything you in particular do not use, keep going, cut it all until we're left with a product even you won't enjoy, all in the name of cutting costs for a corporation you owe no loyalty to. Thankfully this attitude is rare, but its existence is troubling.

 

[Amy Pendergast]

VR in ED is a neat gimmick, but at the end of the day, it is a gimmick. ED has never been a true VR game with full VR support. They got head tracking and stereoscopic vision, but that’s it. The money is better spent on the rest of the game.

As much as I disagree with some hyperbole here but...

What? Really? Ever played ED in VR yourself? Gimmick?

 

[Kelster87]

As much as I disagree with some hyperbole here but...

What? Really? Ever played ED in VR yourself? Gimmick?

I've got a Rift here and play Elite on a screen.. Yes, it looks great in VR, but after 6 months of trying, I can't get more than an hours gaming in before I get sick of having the headset clamped to my skull. I can kinda agree with what Wrecked said. Added to that, having played other VR games, it's clear, to me, that FDev took the minimal effort approach to VR in ED.

As an older and grumpier gamer, I also feel the need to point out I played VR games in the 90's and we were all told then 'They are the next big thing!" and yet here we are, 20+ years later and they still aren't a 'big thing'.

 

[Amy Pendergast]

I've got a Rift here and play Elite on a screen.. Yes, it looks great in VR, but after 6 months of trying, I can't get more than an hours gaming in before I get sick of having the headset clamped to my skull. I can kinda agree with what Wrecked said. Added to that, having played other VR games, it's clear, to me, that FDev took the minimal effort approach to VR in ED.

As an older and grumpier gamer, I also feel the need to point out I played VR games in the 90's and we were all told then 'They are the next big thing!" and yet here we are, 20+ years later and they still aren't a 'big thing'.

Oh don't get me wrong, i remember VFX-1 helmets etc vividly - unfortunately.

ED is a standard seated experience for a cockpit. Not more not less.
Until now there was no need for "higher" functions like correct in game guis for VR, real motion control etc.

That would change for legs partially (there is a bit more in ED than is visible but still a too old SDK).

Next big thing? I don't know. VR is another way to play and enables other play concepts. It's NOT something that makes games magically better, it transforms them.
And this is different for every player.

I personally can play in VR hours upon hours, but I don't claim to speak for others in this regard.

 

[Wrecked]

As much as I disagree with some hyperbole here but...

What? Really? Ever played ED in VR yourself? Gimmick?

Yes I have. It has no motion control implementation and supports nothing more than 6DoF head tracking and stereoscopic display. Even No Man’s Sky does a better job of implementing true VR and it wasn’t even “built from the ground up with VR in mind” as was once said by Braben about ED.

 

[Kelster87]

Yes I have. It has no motion control implementation and supports nothing more than 6DoF head tracking and stereoscopic display. Even No Man’s Sky does a better job of implementing true VR and it wasn’t even “built from the ground up with VR in mind” as was once said by Braben about ED.

Yep, like I said, a minimal effort and yet some seem to proclaim it as some kind of gold standard. Sure, it's pretty, but it doesn't really add all that much for me.

 

[VR - wickfut]

VR in ED is a neat gimmick, but at the end of the day, it is a gimmick. ED has never been a true VR game with full VR support. They got head tracking and stereoscopic vision, but that’s it. The money is better spent on the rest of the game.

That is what VR is. 3d stereoscopic vision with tracking.

The motion controllers aren't VR , they're just motion controllers. Motion controllers and VR headsets existed without each other for a long while before HTC connected them.

Even No Man’s Sky does a better job of implementing true VR and it wasn’t even “built from the ground up with VR in mind” as was once said by Braben about ED.

in a game where you're sat in a cockpit with players using HOTAS , what exactly are you going to use silly wands for?

Considering your avatar is basically a billboard begging for features you want added, like ship interiors and space jumps, you're very dismissive of features that other people want. I've had ship interiors for years in VR.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

I'm suggesting FDev don't have infinity developers so they concentrate their efforts on the areas which have the most benefit for the biggest number of players. Much like I don't cry about there being the odd graphical glitch when FD are working on core stabilty or connection issues that are stopping people from playing the game.

I find this quite amusing. Even if one accepted this argument and that VR is an insignificant minority (something that clearly does not appear to be the case given how much attention it is getting), FDev still failed to produce something that benefited the "biggest number of players". It produced a buggy mess, which even if it were not buggy, would still be at best a mediocre product; a dated FPS and light on content - hence the over-reliance on grind to stretch out the limited game play it does introduce. All Odyssey is, is a demo for it's Cobra engine, and a poor implementation of that. The Cobra engine was not produced for "biggest number of players", but for shareholder value in an attempt to productize what is essentially code reuse, and they didn't even get that right.

Anyway, just some thoughts, keep on going Frontier, I'm mostly enjoying Odyssey when it behaves.

It's embarrasing to see such low expectations.

 

[Amy Pendergast]

Yes I have. It has no motion control implementation and supports nothing more than 6DoF head tracking and stereoscopic display. Even No Man’s Sky does a better job of implementing true VR and it wasn’t even “built from the ground up with VR in mind” as was once said by Braben about ED.

Just one question then: What use does motion control have in a seated cockpit experience where you use your in ship controls which are represented by HOTAS?

And I've not seen VR being particularly great in NMS in the ship flying experience...

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Yeah, I'd rather NMS made full use of my HOTAS setup than Elite went whole hog on motion controls.

That said, we have had a commander figure out how to make that work in Elite: https://github.com/lyneca/ocujoy
(It makes the motion controls work as a HOTAS just like in NMS)

If I get serious about NMS again, it should be pretty trivial to use vJoy to set up my HOTAS for flight.

I love VR but I can generally take or leave motion controls. It's not what makes it special for me.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

And I've not seen VR being particularly great in NMS in the ship flying experience...

Flying in NMS using the controllers is a painful experience, trying to guide an imaginary joystick, really does not work, or at least is nowhere near as responsive as would need to be in a game with a more realistic flight model. I can only imagine what it would be like to try and dock using the controllers that way - you'd see the rebuy screen more often than successfully undock. Controllers are designed to emulate arm/hand movements and gestures, and they're good for that, but given the complexity of ED's flight model, they would lack the fine movement needed, let alone the necessary bindings.

Additionally, if you principally use VR for ED, using a HOTAS saves you a fortune in batteries. I've not had to change batteries in my controllers in almost a year...

 

[A D]

Flying in NMS using the controllers is a painful experience, trying to guide an imaginary joystick, really does not work, or at least is nowhere near as responsive as would need to be in a game with a more realistic flight model. I can only imagine what it would be like to try and dock using the controllers that way - you'd see the rebuy screen more often than successfully undock. Controllers are designed to emulate arm/hand movements and gestures, and they're good for that, but given the complexity of ED's flight model, they would lack the fine movement needed, let alone the necessary bindings.

Additionally, if you principally use VR for ED, using a HOTAS saves you a fortune in batteries. I've not had to change batteries in my controllers in almost a year...

NMS works ok with a game pad though. Same as ED so to speak. I have always used a game pad for both games without issues.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

NMS works ok with a game pad though. Same as ED so to speak. I have always used a game pad for both games without issues.

The controllers work well in NMS for the on foot game play and include some pretty intuitive gestures. It's flight I find they're atrocious for.

 

[Tom Jacobs]

I got a VR set years ago just to try in Elite.

Its gamechanging being able to actually see around you and track enemies and see their every move, and even get up from the seat and watch out the window from the annie's bridge whilst your ship autolands.
I used to go mining and just watch the limpets fly around my type 9, just watching them do their thing through the huge greenhouse like cockpit.

Can't get enough of this but the lack of proper on foot vr and the appalling performance in odyssey made me quit.
I dont need the vr hand gesture controls or whatever. I just want my decent fps back be able to look around on foot just like i do in so many other games.

 

[INSTG8R]

Just one question then: What use does motion control have in a seated cockpit experience where you use your in ship controls which are represented by HOTAS?

And I've not seen VR being particularly great in NMS in the ship flying experience...

Mine drive me nuts because my ED HOTAS, Nostromo for space legs setup now take up my entire desk and the insist on being in my stationary boundary. I’ve so far resorted to putting them in my lap…

 

[Boff'in]

There has obviously been a lot of disappointment and anger over the fact Frontier have announced they won't be developing a full VR experience for on-foot gameplay. I play in VR sometimes, and sometimes I play normally, but 100% back the lack of VR for on-foot.

The amount of development resource required to design and create a proper on-foot VR experience that also integrates properly with non-VR players is immense. Absolutely nothing to do with performance (although that's not been great so far in Odyssey but slowly improving). It's a bit more involved and requires a bit more thought than one suggestion I saw which was "oh it's the same as the SRV just change the cab for the helmet HUD". Frontier are not a global developer with offices worldwide that they can just point at and go "you 300 people are doing the VR on-foot".

Performance concerns aren't the reason you're not having it - the reason you're not having it is Frontier has a limited amount of resources and they've allocated them to create something that 95% of the player base can access and enjoy. They declined to expend massive amounts of resource on something that a small percentage will ever see. How many new players or existing players returning and buying the expansion will on-foot VR bring in above and beyond the standard experience?

There's a strong argument to end all VR support because it frees up time chasing down and maintaining issues with it which could be spent elsewhere, in much the same way the 32-bit and DirectX 10 support was ended, but as ED remains one of VR's killer apps (I've certainly not done much else with my headset other than a bit of Audioshield) maybe there are other incentives to keep it going because it retains that premier status of a "big" game which is even better in VR.

Anyway, just some thoughts, keep on going Frontier, I'm mostly enjoying Odyssey when it behaves.

It reminds me of Gabe Newell from Valve equating development to having the same problem of being
S U P E R M A N.

if you concede for the sake of argument that superman CAN perceive and differentiate a planets worth of issues from:
People screaming as they stubbed their toes on furniture,
To screaming about their cats stuck up in trees,
old ladies crossing the street,
Random street crime,
Organised street crime,
Bank Robberies,
Terrorists attack,
natural disasters,
wars,

You can fix any and all of the problems you choose to, but the issue is, you can only solve the problems linearly, (aka one at a time) with your two bare hands at a specific location.
So whichever problem you decide to fix now, you actively choose NOT to fix the others that will continue persist.
For example Helping that old lady cross the street, causes hundreds of preventable deaths (by superman) on the other side of the planet in a natural disaster.

we’ve had to endure UI problems, not just during odyssey’s roll out but since the introduction of the Flat UI for ARX and the cosmetic store, which they have ONLY sorted out the cosmetic item filter in update4 for odyssey during their soft-launch/live-beta testing/early access.
So “finally” we a don’t get weird selection of visible items (even if they were disabled) in your scroll list.

I am sure the issues could have been sorted out beforehand, but despite being annoying, and obtuse, the menu was “functional” where as server drop outs were more of a critical issue.

With VR, I think getting odyssey up and running for flatscreen users of paramount issue.
There are a myriad of VR issues already that frontier needed to develop and fix;
I’ve yet to test the the Horizons experience that odyssey will provide for example the Galaxy map and System map were a little troublesome in VR, so, the newer solutions may already have fixed some of the prior VR “map” issues.

VR was the apex of game development for me, and now I finally got a machine and headset - I barely touch VR.
It’s too cumbersome for to enjoy. That will of course “fade” as Moore’s law progresses ever onwards.

 

[Scoob101]

Even No Man’s Sky does a better job of implementing true VR and it wasn’t even “built from the ground up with VR in mind” as was once said by Braben about ED.

Davey Wavey`s giddy hyperbole really has come back to bite him on the posterior lately, hasn't it....

 

[Helvellyn]

I love VR but I can generally take or leave motion controls. It's not what makes it special for me.

Very much depends on the game. They're great for shooters, pointless for cockpits. I dabble in racing games in VR from time to time, with pedals and a wheel - will someone tell me that's just a gimmick because there's no motion control, despite the much better sense of presence of other cars and sighting pretty much as I would in reality?

I'd argue that such cockpit seated experiences are where VR shines the most, since there are fewer compromises to be made for motion and interaction.

 

[ubedead]

I agree, if they have $10 to spend maintaining ED, I’d rather them spend all of it on something that most people can enjoy rather than $5 on VR and $5 on everything else.

VR in ED is a neat gimmick, but at the end of the day, it is a gimmick. ED has never been a true VR game with full VR support. They got head tracking and stereoscopic vision, but that’s it. The money is better spent on the rest of the game.

Obviously never played ED in VR so .

 

[ubedead]

I've got a Rift here and play Elite on a screen.. Yes, it looks great in VR, but after 6 months of trying, I can't get more than an hours gaming in before I get sick of having the headset clamped to my skull. I can kinda agree with what Wrecked said. Added to that, having played other VR games, it's clear, to me, that FDev took the minimal effort approach to VR in ED.

As an older and grumpier gamer, I also feel the need to point out I played VR games in the 90's and we were all told then 'They are the next big thing!" and yet here we are, 20+ years later and they still aren't a 'big thing'.

If you get sick then maybe VR isn't for you snowflake.