Open - NoN PvP option

[Peoplearestrange]

I love this game, but I don't play it for the PvP, personal I'm not good at it and mostly I don't enjoy PvP games, its just not in my enjoyment of a game. But what I do enjoy is cooperation and playerbases, honestly some of the best times I've had on ED is interacting with people.

For me the CCC (Christmas Carrier Convoy) was the pinnacle of this, loads of people trying something together, with some vague idea of what. This started in open but quickly moved to a large private group because honestly the PvP wasn't part of what people got into the "mission" for. But it wasn't just loads of cargo ships, no we had a mix, explorers, fuel rats, security detail for NPC's and the like. People grouped up and worked together in an enjoyable way.

These days I mainly play in solo or small private groups, but honestly space is big enough already and playing solo can make it feel even more empty. However the risk of open play makes me avoid it totally. I don't want to go hundreds of light years to do a CG or an unusual event to be wordlessly killed, sure its "emergant gameplay" or "teaching lesson about sheilds" or "high wake escape" or whatever, but these aren't my enjoyment of the game. Having someone tell me about not min-maxing whilst having maxed their warship for killing quickly seems like a pretty weird way to "teach".


So here's my suggestion, a Non-PvP open. Keep the regular open allow that to affect the BGS only to make it a risk reward thing, but have a separate non-pvp section. Other MMO's have been doing this for years with the likes of Non-PvP servers on warcraft or both parties having to toggle on PvP in Diablo etc.


I want to be able to play this game with others, I don't want to deal with PvP engineered wordless one hit wonders. Its simply not enjoyable with basically minimal reward for the risk.

Thoughts, comments and amendments welcome!

 

[fadingtrails]

Have you ever considered joining a private group like Mobius PvE?

 

[trollson]

I will agree with this sentiment.

As I just mentioned on another thread - when I see every expansion or addition to a game boil down to combat-with-bigger-numbers I tend to think that the developers are being lazy. Combat systems are well trodden grounds, and its easy to end up in a zero-gain arms war.

In addition, after playing a game and progressing for some time, I don't want to just do the same things with bigger numbers attached - I would expect to be able to do new things entirely.

Some of my best MMO experiences have been a result of interaction with others, working together to achieve things that we couldn't do individually. Goals we as a group or guild decided upon, rather than anything imposed from above. Whether making stuff or coordinated expeditions, resource gathering, and (ahem) economic warfare...

This was possible because there were ways players could interact with each other (other than shooting each other) and with the environment, making non-transitory changes in the game-world.

I understand that the "core" philosophy of Elite is based on the 1984 classic (fondly remembered) -- one pilot and their ship against the universe. But that was a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, and gaming has moved on with potentials beyond the dreams of the early '80s.

 

[Peoplearestrange]

Have you ever considered joining a private group like Mobius PvE?

I mean honestly I didn't know that existed, which doesn't really make it all that accessible or FDev "approved". But thank you for the link! I will check them out.

I will agree with this sentiment.

As I just mentioned on another thread - when I see every expansion or addition to a game boil down to combat-with-bigger-numbers I tend to think that the developers are being lazy. Combat systems are well trodden grounds, and its easy to end up in a zero-gain arms war.

In addition, after playing a game and progressing for some time, I don't want to just do the same things with bigger numbers attached - I would expect to be able to do new things entirely.

Some of my best MMO experiences have been a result of interaction with others, working together to achieve things that we couldn't do individually. Goals we as a group or guild decided upon, rather than anything imposed from above. Whether making stuff or coordinated expeditions, resource gathering, and (ahem) economic warfare...

This was possible because there were ways players could interact with each other (other than shooting each other) and with the environment, making non-transitory changes in the game-world.

I understand that the "core" philosophy of Elite is based on the 1984 classic (fondly remembered) -- one pilot and their ship against the universe. But that was a long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, and gaming has moved on with potentials beyond the dreams of the early '80s.

I'd agree that PvP is mostly a "bigger number wins" situation, and honestly no setup other than for fighting directly is really going to match up numbers wise, unless you have something extremely quick in flat space in order to plain escape the fight (again defeating the point of the fight).

I could understand the core philosophy is being a bad- space pilot etc etc, but that changed long ago when they through in other people into the mix. People can make and break experience in so many ways, similar to how a good DM/GM knows that rules and limits are put in place to give some vague direction but still let people do interesting things. Sure PvP comes up in DND/Pathfinder etc but there comes a point where some people want to play their game a little more cooperatively and see what the environment has to offer.

 

[Zargoth]

Even better, make it one "open" mode that is both PvP and PvE with a PvP "flag" that you can only toggle while docked at a station. From what I understand, WoW used to have separate servers but recently unified them with this approach to get more players in the same server instance.

Edit: totally just noticed that the OP mentioned the use of a PvP/PvE toggle.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Oxymoron alert!
Mobius thread incoming!

 

[Zargoth]

Oxymoron alert!
Mobius thread incoming!

I've always found the "just join mobius" argument a little funny. Here is a large group of people sacrificing a lot in terms of player interaction in order to have their own unsupported PvE mode. If I was trying to make an engaging multiplayer/MMO game, I would be doing everything I could get get them back into open play.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I've always found the "just join mobius" argument a little funny. Here is a large group of people sacrificing a lot in terms of player interaction in order to have their own unsupported PvE mode. If I was trying to make an engaging multiplayer/MMO game, I would be doing everything I could get get them back into open play.

Why?
Open is already by far the most popular mode.
Mobius members are not shy about recruiting.
I'm fine with both, except when they go into the irrational fear mongering.

The alternative in the OP honestly reeks of insecurity to me.

"Don't you want to play with meeee???
Surely you'll be glad to change the rules to do so, since I'm so special!"

It's basic cultural assimilation vs accommodation.

 

[Zargoth]

Nearly every other successful MMO either has PvE only zones/servers or some PvP flag that players can turn on. Adding this to elite would only make it more popular and accessible which means more money for frontier to develop and fix the game and everyone wins. Why are you so against it?

 

[Peoplearestrange]

Even better, make it one "open" mode that is both PvP and PvE with a PvP "flag" that you can only toggle while docked at a station. From what I understand, WoW used to have separate servers but recently unified them with this approach to get more players in the same server instance.

I mean that would work too, but no idea if that be harder to implement?

I've always found the "just join mobius" argument a little funny. Here is a large group of people sacrificing a lot in terms of player interaction in order to have their own unsupported PvE mode. If I was trying to make an engaging multiplayer/MMO game, I would be doing everything I could get get them back into open play.

Well sort of except different people have different idea's to what a game "should" be. Mine is not one of PvP, and I don't think I'm alone in this. Also the "Just join mobius" is massively limited by the maximum private group size (which is apparently 20,000 accounts), which is hardly all inclusive and merely a work around.

Oxymoron alert!
Mobius thread incoming!

WORDS

Please don't make this a positives and negatives of Mobius. That is not my intention here.

 

[Zargoth]

Also the "Just join mobius" is massively limited by the maximum private group size (which is apparently 20,000 accounts), which is hardly all inclusive and merely a work around.

Please don't make this a positives and negatives of Mobius. That is not my intention here.

Yeah I've been in three different Mobius groups over the years as people come and go inactive. It's a pain to manage and it really shows that there is a lot of interest in playing PvE

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Nearly every other successful MMO either has PvE only zones/servers or some PvP flag that players can turn on. Adding this to elite would only make it more popular and accessible which means more money for frontier to develop and fix the game and everyone wins. Why are you so against it?

It is simply an oxymoron.
I'm not against it per se, it's just that the status quo doesn't bear any burden of proof for existence.

It would no longer be "open."
You are making assumptions.

Yeah I've been in three different Mobius groups over the years as people come and go inactive. It's a pain to manage and it really shows that there is a lot of interest in playing PvE

LOL.

Because all those people go inactive?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Please don't make this a positives and negatives of Mobius. That is not my intention here.

I'm not.
Maybe you should read my words instead of trying to misrepresent them.
I don't care about Mobius.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Here's a radical idea...



Just let open be open and drop the "I want a safe space" crap?


There is PG and SOlo mode if you don't want to PvP.

Sometimes I don't want to PvP.. I either use Solo, or alternatively.. Just wake.

If you've done a measure of engineering no gank squad is going to have the time to kill you before you submit and wake. Not even in an eagle.

 

[Zargoth]

It is simply an oxymoron.
I'm not against it per se, it's just that the status quo doesn't bear any burden of proof for existence.

It would no longer be "open."
You are making assumptions.



LOL.

Because all those people go inactive?

let me get this straight - 40k+ players in various private groups is not proof for existance? And somehow the creation of a PvE mode or group affects your enjoyment of the game?

 

[Zargoth]

Here's a radical idea...



Just let open be open and drop the "I want a safe space" crap?


There is PG and SOlo mode if you don't want to PvP.

Sometimes I don't want to PvP.. I either use Solo, or alternatively.. Just wake.

If you've done a measure of engineering no gank squad is going to have the time to kill you before you submit and wake. Not even in an eagle.

I mean, that's what most of us already do. A dedicated PvE group wont change anything from the PvP perspective. Sometimes it honestly seems like the only reason people argue against a PvE mode is they want to be able to kill players who would otherwise be enjoying a PvE mode.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I don't care about Mobius.

That's ok - he cares about you

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

let me get this straight - 40k+ players in various private groups is not proof for existance? And somehow the creation of a PvE mode or group affects your enjoyment of the game?

LOL

Read it again.

The status quo I am referring to is open.

I don't care about Mobius at all, and it doesn't affect my game in the slightest.
That is a poor strawman.

I think you do not understand burden of proof vis a vis status quo.

If you want to change open, then you have the burden of proof to demonstrate all aspects of your premises.
Since open is already the most popular mode, your arguments will ring hollow.


https://www.coursera.org/lecture/persuade-speech/whats-the-status-quo-and-burden-of-proof-a6bZz

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

That's ok - he cares about you

Well, I am special.

 

[Zargoth]

Yes, open is the most popular mode because it is the one that everyone has access to. What's the downside to giving players more ways to play the game?