Pay2Win made it to Elite

This has elecited dismay, by a few, that players can 'buy' an advantage rather than have to play for perhaps hundreds of hours accumulating wealth and engineer unlocks, the fact that any player may purchase this item with in-game currency accumulated over, say, 18 months, of play appears to have been forgotten.

I believe FD designed it this way so they could use a technicality to deny accusations of pay-for-advantage.

Eighteen months is an awfully long time in the life of a computer game. At what point would this technicality become unacceptable? What if it took two years to earn the required arx for the new Python? Five years? Ten? Also note that, okay, you can buy ONE pay-for-advantage ship after 18 months of earning arx in game. But more than one prebuilt ship is currently available for purchase with presumably more on the way. Now we're looking at several years. Sure, theoretically you can buy all the ships by earning arx in game ... if you live long enough or they don't shut down the servers. The Python Mk II is the one new ship that a fair number of players will actually buy with arx earned in game. When the next new ship comes along, arx stockpiles will be low and they'll all be paying with cash.

But sure, you can earn the arx in game. No problem!
 
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Eighteen months is an awfully long time in the life of a computer game
10 years is even longer ... which is how long this game has been out. 90% of the people playing it have 1 billion credits, 10 ships engineered all to hell and have more than enough flight time to take any newcomers and have got their value for money and then some. Most players have a thousand hours plus ... there is zero advantage to any new player coming in with bought ships ... there is zero advantage to any established player buying the ship. The vast majority of people complaining about this aren't affected by it in the least. If anyone personally requires external validation for their ingame enjoyment and achievements, thats on you and noone else. No amount of money spent to skip grinding, by anyone else, would ever change the way I feel about anything I've done in game.

This game has always had a massive issue with new player retention ... it's well known. So anything they can do to help start and retain new players is a plus. For a game that is now consistently on sale for $5-10 plus Odyssey for like $10-15 ... no subscription ... they are well within their right to charge for anything they like. As you are well within your right to not like it.
 
This game has always had a massive issue with new player retention ... it's well known. So anything they can do to help start and retain new players is a plus. For a game that is now consistently on sale for $5-10 plus Odyssey for like $10-15 ... no subscription ... they are well within their right to charge for anything they like. As you are well within your right to not like it.

Yeah player retention should be improved, because it's very important for the survival of ED in the long run.
 
there is zero advantage to any new player coming in with bought ships ... there is zero advantage to any established player buying the ship. The vast majority of people complaining about this aren't affected by it in the least. If anyone personally requires external validation for their ingame enjoyment and achievements, thats on you and noone else. No amount of money spent to skip grinding, by anyone else, would ever change the way I feel about anything I've done in game.
Refer to a pay-to-win mechanic and people scream "there's no way to win!" So I say pay-for-advantage instead and get "there's no advantage." Jeez.

Call it pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can!

Your post doesn't address what I was talking about. I was making the observation that Frontier appears to have made themselves a loophole for dodging complaints about their new pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can policy. I mention the passage of time to point out how silly the "but you can earn the arx in game" notion is. Other than players currently emptying their arx stockpiles to obtain the Python Mk II, it's not practical but gives Frontier an out.

I think this sort of thing affects the nature of the game. Others will of course disagree. The game is about finding your way in a virtual galaxy. You start with nearly nothing and blaze your own trail. All shortcuts or "jumpstarts" do is eliminate some of the gameplay that makes the game so endearing. I had many adventures earning my first Python nine years ago. Just buying one for cash eliminates that. Early on, each ship was an accomplishment and getting my first Python was a Big Deal. New players are always looking for direction, so many set a goal of acquiring the next ship. Eliminate that obvious goal ... and the feeling of reward they get for it ... and maybe they won't be motivated to stick around long enough to find the less obvious reasons to keep playing.

The pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can policy strikes me as a short term solution for Frontier's cash situation that could have long term consequences. It doesn't affect my own game accomplishments, but it will affect me if it hastens Elite's demise. It's not about validation. That misconception is on you.
 
Refer to a pay-to-win mechanic and people scream "there's no way to win!" So I say pay-for-advantage instead and get "there's no advantage." Jeez.

Call it pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can!

Your post doesn't address what I was talking about. I was making the observation that Frontier appears to have made themselves a loophole for dodging complaints about their new pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can policy. I mention the passage of time to point out how silly the "but you can earn the arx in game" notion is. Other than players currently emptying their arx stockpiles to obtain the Python Mk II, it's not practical but gives Frontier an out.

I think this sort of thing affects the nature of the game. Others will of course disagree. The game is about finding your way in a virtual galaxy. You start with nearly nothing and blaze your own trail. All shortcuts or "jumpstarts" do is eliminate some of the gameplay that makes the game so endearing. I had many adventures earning my first Python nine years ago. Just buying one for cash eliminates that. Early on, each ship was an accomplishment and getting my first Python was a Big Deal. New players are always looking for direction, so many set a goal of acquiring the next ship. Eliminate that obvious goal ... and the feeling of reward they get for it ... and maybe they won't be motivated to stick around long enough to find the less obvious reasons to keep playing.

The pay-for-something-that-can-affect-the-game-more-than-a-paintjob-can policy strikes me as a short term solution for Frontier's cash situation that could have long term consequences. It doesn't affect my own game accomplishments, but it will affect me if it hastens Elite's demise. It's not about validation. That misconception is on you.
My post directly addresses what you are taking about. Nothing. All this carry on and argument/discussion over a decision by Frontier, to sell something to raise money, to keep developing the game that affects virtually no current players. As stated in my post ... If you feel your gameplay experience is somehow cheapened by what others are doing in game ... that is on you and noone else. If you require external validation for your gameplay experience to mean something that's not Frontier's issue, that's yours.
 
My post directly addresses what you are taking about. Nothing. All this carry on and argument/discussion over a decision by Frontier, to sell something to raise money, to keep developing the game that affects virtually no current players. As stated in my post ... If you feel your gameplay experience is somehow cheapened by what others are doing in game ... that is on you and noone else. If you require external validation for your gameplay experience to mean something that's not Frontier's issue, that's yours.

Fine, ignore my points but please, at least spell "no one" correctly.
 
Those with the wealth to afford high-end equipment, myself included, will always enjoy an advantage over the base game. VR+HOTAS affords me a considerable advantage over most aspects of the game compared to flat screen+KB/Mouse. The same goes for single-player cockpit games that support VR.

While I agree that there is out-of-game hardware that can improve in-game outcomes, I'm highly skeptical of claims that VR (and yes, I've played with VR before...I don't even think it really improves my situational awareness) is a good example of that, and the difference between types of controls is less profound than the difference within them.

Of course, that's all beside the point. Frontier has no realistic way to limit things like the hardware used, one's geographical location, one's ISP, or the amount of free time one has, and they already do their due diligence to mitigate the advantages these things may provide.

The control schemes and flight models have allowed there to be a decade of heated argument over who has an advantage where, with no real conclusion; a clear sign that things are about as balanced as they could hope to be, when it comes to input devices. The game has strong, almost absurdly so, latency compensation mechanisms to negate much of the advantage or disadvantage one's ping might otherwise give them, at the expense of being able to have a fully synchronous experience. Even play time is partially accounted for by limiting individual CMDR influence contributions with diminishing returns.

The deliberate creation of ways to turn player assets into in-game CMDR advantage, rather than trying to hedge against these things, is an entirely different matter.

what exactly is everyone new & old "competing" for?

Influence over the persistent setting, which is a defining feature of this game. Barring a tiny minority of players who never have their CMDRs interact with the human civilization in-game, everyone contributes to what everyone else encounters. The reason my CMDR can't buy drugs at most stations called Freeport anymore, or gets a 15% discount at parts at LHS 20, or sees the goods prices he sees, is because of the actions other CMDRs. With the exception of Power Play, most of these results are largely undirected, unintentional, and may go unnoticed by those responsible for creating them, but they are there none the less. Even if one is unaware of it, ones gameplay is still shaped by it.

My aversion to pay-to-win (which is synonymous with pay-to-compete, or pay-to-anything that produces mechanical results of any kind in an in-game context) is that it creates an entirely avoidable inequality of opportunity when it comes to a player's ability to influence the game.

the fact that any player may purchase this item with in-game currency accumulated over, say, 18 months, of play appears to have been forgotten.

It hasn't been forgotten, but it is irrelevant. The existence of a disadvantageous route of acquisition that can be shortcut via monetization changes nothing, except perhaps to make Frontier's monetization scheme look more predatory.

If one could buy Engineering materials--something that can obviously be acquired without spending money--all the same people that think being able to buy access to the Python Mk II, and likely quite a few more, would call that pay-to-win.

there is zero advantage to any new player coming in with bought ships ... there is zero advantage to any established player buying the ship.

Disagree on both counts.

Yeah player retention should be improved, because it's very important for the survival of ED in the long run.

I'm fairly confident that Frontier's new avenues of monetization will increase the game's revenue. Not sure if it will increase player retention, but I'm much more doubtful of this.

Anyway, in the long run, Elite: Dangerous is just a name for a product. The game wearing has changed profoundly over the years. I have zero interest in the survival of that name, or the franchise, at the expense of the incarnations of the game that I've enjoyed.

I still have a problem with non-functioning anti-aliasing giving me staircases and similar annoyances. This means that overall my Odyssey appearance isn't as good as Horizons was. Has this been fixed, do I need to tweak settings?

It hasn't been fixed and there isn't a whole lot you can do to fix it. Hardware permitting, you can brute force some of it away with enough supersampling, but pretty much every other solution has other trade-offs that can leave the game looking worse.

As stated in my post ... If you feel your gameplay experience is somehow cheapened by what others are doing in game ... that is on you and noone else. If you require external validation for your gameplay experience to mean something that's not Frontier's issue, that's yours.

That's Frontier's issue too. They created and marketed this as a massively multiplayer title where one care scarcely escape the impact of other players on their game. I'm not sure how you can go on about the lack of players being some kind of problem and then dismiss this impact.
 
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A well designed game should be enjoyable at all levels anyway. If your game is so badly designed that you have to sell access to "the good stuff" maybe you need to rethink what you're doing. And the best part of ED is the beginning. Frontier should be making the start of the game a better experience and filling out their very narrow game designs so there is more to do than just the activity du jour, not selling skip-packs. One is a long-term solution for a better game and player retention, the other is a sugar hit. 🤷‍♂️
 
A well designed game should be enjoyable at all levels anyway. If your game is so badly designed that you have to sell access to "the good stuff" maybe you need to rethink what you're doing. And the best part of ED is the beginning. Frontier should be making the start of the game a better experience and filling out their very narrow game designs so there is more to do than just the activity du jour, not selling skip-packs. One is a long-term solution for a better game and player retention, the other is a sugar hit. 🤷‍♂️

Absolutely! I'd like to see Frontier come up with other things to produce revenue. Sell more content, not ways to skip content.
 
I believe FD designed it this way so they could use a technicality to deny accusations of pay-for-advantage.
Each of us have out own beliefs - over everything, apparently.
Eighteen months is an awfully long time in the life of a computer game.
In a game where poeple have been playing for 10 years, perhaps it is.
At what point would this technicality become unacceptable?
Only you can decide that, surely?
What if it took two years to earn the required arx for the new Python? Five years? Ten?
So what?
Also note that, okay, you can buy ONE pay-for-advantage ship after 18 months of earning arx in game.
Yes, you might.
But more than one prebuilt ship is currently available for purchase with presumably more on the way.
Are they Pokemon characters?
Now we're looking at several years.
And?
Sure, theoretically you can buy all the ships by earning arx in game
Yes, you can!
... if you live long enough or they don't shut down the servers.
Life happens to all of us
The Python Mk II is the one new ship that a fair number of players will actually buy with arx earned in game.
Yes, it appears that way
When the next new ship comes along, arx stockpiles will be low and they'll all be paying with cash.
Really? All of them?
But sure, you can earn the arx in game. No problem!
Indeed! You are absolutely correct!

Or just wait a few weeks (which is, judging by the trend in the comments above, too long) and buy the base model, then build, the ship up from credits earned if you have managed to play the game for a few days over the last 10 years.

Edit: typos
 
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If your game is so badly designed that you have to sell access to "the good stuff" maybe you need to rethink what you're doing.
Must be time to shut down the servers then?

Funny, the game has been "so badly designed", allegedly, since I started playing 7 years ago... Even funnier, the comments I read back then? The same posters are here, today, (not all of them, of course) playing this terrible game...

Maybe it is just "Internet Normalcy"?
 
It doesn't affect my own game accomplishments,
Excellent - I feel exactly the same!
but it will affect me if it hastens Elite's demise.
Only a tiny bit, surely? After all, playing a game for 10 years... Nobody would play that long, would they? (and think of all of those Arx a player who has been playing just for 3 years might have accumulated!)
I think this sort of thing affects the nature of the game.
Opinions are always right, oddly, without it, there may not have been a game by the end of this year.
Others will of course disagree.
Of course they will, they have opinions also.

FD will follow any path to relieve players of their money they deem fit. After all, they are a business that relies on income to continue...
It is up to the individual player if they succumb to the blandishments of 'shiny new toys', or reject them, of course...

I spent my Arx stash, quite deliberately, on a P2 Stellar pack. Circumstances would need to be exceptional for me to purchase more. 3 shiny new ships are very unlikely to manage that, I bought the ship with an obvious combat role, I'm not particularly interested in a hauler, explorer or miner (my predictions for the next 3 ships) in the least.
 
This has elecited dismay, by a few, that players can 'buy' an advantage rather than have to play for perhaps hundreds of hours accumulating wealth and engineer unlocks, the fact that any player may purchase this item with in-game currency accumulated over, say, 18 months, of play appears to have been forgotten.
The ability to earn ARX in-game can certainly shift the "P2W" bit onto the payment for the ARX itself, yes. "Buy in-game currency for cash" is pretty standard.

This game has always had a massive issue with new player retention ... it's well known. So anything they can do to help start and retain new players is a plus.
That's certainly true in theory, but I'm not sure that these quickstart packs really help with that in practice anyway, for two reasons:

1) Two of them - the miner and the explorer - are marginally effective but badly flawed designs [1]; the third - the AX ship - is that plus entering a complex area of the game where a beginner would need to do a lot of background reading and practice to figure out what to do with the ship anyway (including, to an extent, which systems to fly it to!).

2) Okay, so a beginner has paid £4.49 in the current Steam sale for the basic game (or maybe even £8.79 for the Deluxe and picked up Odyssey too). The prebuilt ships are 25,500 ARX (£12.99) each

Are there really that many people who will be
  • finding the game a challenge to figure out how to get going to the extent that they're struggling to get out of the starter Sidewinder
  • not in contact with any other players who might be able to help them out (either with advice or more direct help)
  • willing to pay close to three times what they paid for the game itself for a small boost (or even if they didn't buy the game on sale, roughly the same again)
  • finding having the world's slowest laser miner or a ship which takes 30 seconds to scoop after each jump the thing they were missing to get the game to click for them

It seems to me to be far too large an additional payment for someone who's really uncertain about the game to even consider, and far too small a benefit to actually aid retention if it did.


Still, it'll be easy enough even without access to Frontier's internal data to see if it works:
1) Is there an uptick in revenue rate for Elite Dangerous on Frontier's next investor reports? (If not, then clearly the number of people buying this stuff is so small that it can't be responsible for any measurable increased retention anyway)
2) Are the "veteran player" metrics higher than before once short-term peaks from things like the Powerplay release are skipped (squadron leaderboard aggregates and EDDN submissions are easy to measure and should generally be mostly contributed to by longer-standing active players)


[1] I don't mean "they're not min-maxed engineered". I'm thinking of things like the miner only having one collector, or the explorer having a fuel scoop two sizes below its FSD, which will make them arguably worse than a decent shipyard build without any rare or engineered modules.

There's also the potential issue - inevitable, given the baseline hulls' low optional count - that none of the quickstart prebuilds have supercruise assist or docking computers.
 
The ability to earn ARX in-game can certainly shift the "P2W" bit onto the payment for the ARX itself, yes. "Buy in-game currency for cash" is pretty standard.
I had a reasonable stash of Arx just from play over the last 16 months or so (no interesting cosmetics in the store, for me) with another £12.99 just in case the Iridescent skins (or a Courier Raider Kit) came into the store. Store prices rising made those purchased Arx have less buying power, the Stellar provided somewhere to get rid of all bar 12k or so...

Perhaps I'm strange to have not spent Arx as I gained them, so had many 1,000's 'free'?
 
Must be time to shut down the servers then?

Funny, the game has been "so badly designed", allegedly, since I started playing 7 years ago... Even funnier, the comments I read back then? The same posters are here, today, (not all of them, of course) playing this terrible game...

Maybe it is just "Internet Normalcy"?

This game is a decent enough game, but it would be much better without certain design choices. These design choices create friction against long-term play, which would’ve been fatal in a sim-style MMO 20 years ago… before the proliferation of the Pay2Win monetization strategy. A game like this would’ve required a subscription to play, and many players would’ve been deterred by those design choices.

Of course, other design choices help keep maintenance costs down for Frontier, so it’s a pay-once and play “forever” type game. And that helps with long-term retention, but those afore-mentioned design choices create a lot of grumbling among the player-base.

I used to believe that those poor design choices, such as the proliferation of exponential “price” curves for logarithmic gains, were a symptom of Frontier being inexperienced in the running of a sim-style MMO, and instead used design choices common in level-based MMOs. Frontier’s attempts at an easy fix for those poor design choices created even more problems for a sim-style MMO.

I used to believe that, because it was easy to forget that the original Kickstarter game design document contained much larger Pay2Win elements, and Frontier reversed course on those early in the campaign. And those same design choices are also common in Pay2Win games. Now, I look at this game, and wonder if I’ve been holding a de-tailed Rattlersnake all this time, despite having been assured that this was a harmless Bullsnake.
 
This game is a decent enough game, but it would be much better without certain design choices.
And, as always, the game we all have is the game we have, the diverse opinions of what would have made it better are often at odds with each other.
I used to believe that, because it was easy to forget that the original Kickstarter game design document contained much larger Pay2Win elements, and Frontier reversed course on those early in the campaign. And those same design choices are also common in Pay2Win games. Now, I look at this game, and wonder if I’ve been holding a de-tailed Rattlersnake all this time, despite having been assured that this was a harmless Bullsnake.
Like it or lump it, essentially, is the most appropriate response, sorry. Frontier have made a decision to sell assets for in-game currency (a dreadful idea to some) for better or worse.
Time will certainly dictate if the decision was a wise one.
I used to believe that those poor design choices, such as the proliferation of exponential “price” curves for logarithmic gains, were a symptom of Frontier being inexperienced in the running of a sim-style MMO, and instead used design choices common in level-based MMOs. Frontier’s attempts at an easy fix for those poor design choices created even more problems for a sim-style MMO.
These design choices were those of Frontier, at any time, if those choices undermined the fun of playing....
Again, whose suggestions to make the game 'better' should FD listen to? Players can't even agree on what time lunch is...
These design choices create friction against long-term play
And, yet, just how many players have been here since day 1?
How many players have years, and thousands of hours play so far?

Let's not lie, the game is good, and regardless of what choices were made, many players have been playing, long-term...

Opinions of what FD should have done are a dime a dozen, in the main they were sensible enough to ignore them.

Added for clarity: I am not an explorer (but have travelled well over a million LY on 1 account), do not specialise in trade, mining, combat, or mission running. I play with a couple of small groups who play solely to enjoy their time spent in the game, doing an assortment of activities, both in space & on-foot.

Yet, with this totally laid-back approach to a game, I am about to cross the end of my 7th year of play.
Is this just because I do whatever I feel like at the time? Probably... But I also have no preconceived idea of what the game should or might have been, that helps. (I played Elite on the BBC Micro in 1984, but none of the following offerings, so ED was just like the '84 game, but prettier and expanded)
 
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Like it or lump it, essentially, is the most appropriate response, sorry.
These design choices were those of Frontier, at any time, if those choices undermined the fun of playing....
Obviously the design choices are up to Frontier. No big leap of logic here.

Players such as myself take a bit of time investigating larger scoped long-term games prior to spending +20hrs. The larger scoped games usually require more than a quick preview and noob zone. Generally I find 10-20hrs min to get the feel of a game. But... I don't like wasting 10-20hrs on something I determine isn't for me.

How is this relevant? Frontier is changing a fundamental concept of the game design. It might seem minor or trivial.., ahh a couple ingame things being sold in the gamestore... and pretty much for sure another batch in a couple months. But it isn't lost on players such as myself that this is a fundamental change to the overall game concept.

I gotta wait and see where this goes... because I have big time invested in this game I have enjoyed. But my spidey sense says its going down a path that I would not have chosen this game back years ago. I would have steered clear from. I already went down the path of F2P or (very inexpensive entry games) just to find it becomes a persistant money grab for ingame items. How deep is ED going to follow this path? I don't know. Wait and see. But I (like some others) will be very disappointed depending on what happens.
 
A well designed game should be enjoyable at all levels anyway. If your game is so badly designed that you have to sell access to "the good stuff" maybe you need to rethink what you're doing. And the best part of ED is the beginning.
I hear that opinion quite a bit and the best part of ED is now, not specifically today but playing the game at whatever point you have reached.
The beginning was different not just because it was years ago but because my goals capabilities and understanding were different, things changed as the game evolved. Now I am a veteran player with a greater understanding and more capabilities my goals have shifted but there are still untouched areas of the game if what I am doing gets stale.

Of course this is just my opinion and as wrong as your own from any other players perspective.

Frontier should be making the start of the game a better experience and filling out their very narrow game designs so there is more to do than just the activity du jour, not selling skip-packs. One is a long-term solution for a better game and player retention, the other is a sugar hit. 🤷‍♂️
 
i havnt engineered a ship for quite a while,ive 10 various all g5,but this p2 is giving me a headache.i have depleted my stored mats trying different ways and have had overheating issues,but anyway,i now am on the mat trail,raw mats are a pain now. i know what im doing and with experiance ive learned over the years its still a pain.makes me feel sry for newish players,but at the same time driving around collecting the mats is a bit of fun,not a grind.takes me back a few years,just thought i would mention it,
 
I gotta wait and see where this goes... because I have big time invested in this game I have enjoyed
I'm over 7,000 hours also. It is that kind of game...

Frontier is changing a fundamental concept of the game design. It might seem minor or trivial.., ahh a couple ingame things being sold in the gamestore... and pretty much for sure another batch in a couple months. But it isn't lost on players such as myself that this is a fundamental change to the overall game concept.
I see this point being made by just a few, does the introduction of new assets (the 'starter' ships should appear to be a waste to anyone who does a trivial amount of research into the game) for game store currency now, or for game credits later fundamentally alter the game? Obviously you think so, but I am at a loss to see how. (but am not 'sensitive' to a developer suggesting something be bought with store currency)

How deep is ED going to follow this path? I don't know. Wait and see.
Indeed, the future will determine a lot of things.
But I (like some others) will be very disappointed depending on what happens.
If FD become greedy to the point of offering exclusive items that are not possible by regular play, I have no doubt that many long-term players will walk - I certainly would, I pledged to SC years ago, at least they make it obvious they are a scam, so getting some of my money's worth would be on the agenda.
 
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