Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

[-VR- Max Factor]

Personally I think we need to see it in action before passing judgement. If it takes a few minutes to scan a bigish system (20-30 bodies), then I am fine with the new mechanics as it is. Nothing needs changing. If it takes 20-30 minutes then FDev may need to find a way to speed it up a bit, like having planets that orbit each other and planets and all their moons as one signal, as soon as you scan that signal you get those bodies in that signal.

But i certainly want the instant honk know everything gone from the game. It is horrible and I have never liked it as an explorer. I also do not want to use a basic scanner and use paralax to see stuff either as that can take ages, especially if there are objects a long way away. That is not a viable alternative.

Nope, keep the new mechanics as a replacements to the BDS/IDS/ADS and streamline it if needed.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Personally I think we need to see it in action before passing judgement. If it takes a few minutes to scan a bigish system (20-30 bodies), then I am fine with the new mechanics as it is. Nothing needs changing. If it takes 20-30 minutes then FDev may need to find a way to speed it up a bit, like having planets that orbit each other and planets and all their moons as one signal, as soon as you scan that signal you get those bodies in that signal.

I agree.
In my opinion honking is not gameplay at all. Even when it partially shows the planets.

 

[Six6VI]

Sorry but keeping the current ADS and DSS scanner exactly as they are but just adding probes as new modules to find planetary POIs is exactly like scrapping all their work. And it doesn't make much sense to send explorers back home when a better proposal already exists.

Our little discussion is about this post here:

Personally, I think the new system looks very promising, and I appreciate the work that appears to have gone into it so far, if there is any work beyond what we've actually seen. But, magical handwavium upgrades for those already way out in the black seems a little illogical and if you've actually read all 185 pages of the other thread there are a few valid reasons why changing the ADS and DSS is receiving some push back.

Surely a major rework of something people are used to, and reluctant to let go of after four years is still more work than just adding a new device that works in tandem with the current system, that already works, even if it's always seemed like an "I WIN" hail mary to some people.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

So what? As long as this game exists there will be screeching. If you take a look at the proposal and screenshots provided by FDEV you can see that a lot of thought and effort went into it. Do you believe they are going to scrap all their work just because some people want to keep the infinite honk? I absolutely can't see that happen.

Hmm, well, about that... as someone who has coded, I have in the past erased great swathes of code because I was going in completely the wrong direction. And started again. It's a tough decision to make sometimes, but in some cases completely necessary. However, Frontier have a schedule to keep to (heh!) and I don't see them prepared to just scrap a wodge of code just to keep grumpy people like me happy.

As for "a lot of thought"... I'm sure a lot of thought went into the Build Your Own System Map™ mechanic, and a lot of skilled dev work went into it - but to me it looks like it was mainly focused on the art and code necessary to get it working.

I can prove they weren't thinking about the consequences of such. Just look at the answers to my questions in the recent reveal livestream - (e.g. "Will we have to build a system map before being able to tell if a system/bodies has been scanned/tagged?" - to which the answer was "Er, dunno, imprtant point though!") - that tells me they were focused on getting the new mechanic working and not considering any wider ramifications to any significant extent - if at all. This is cause for concern. Time is marching on, and they need to get Q4 out before the end of the year, and this could mean they have no choice but to plunge ahead with Build Your Own System Map™ and they'll come back to it - maybe in another 4 years time because now they have to press on with the new stuff.

Oh well.

I think I'm going to have to stop reading the forums until the Q4 beta has arrived and we all get the chance to check out Build Your Own System Map™, because without further information, everyone is currently peeing into the wind.

 

[babelfisch]

Personally, I think the new system looks very promising, and I appreciate the work that appears to have gone into it so far, if there is any work beyond what we've actually seen. But, magical handwavium upgrades for those already way out in the black seems a little illogical and if you've actually read all 185 pages of the other thread there are a few valid reasons why changing the ADS and DSS is receiving some push back.

Surely a major rework of something people are used to, and reluctant to let go of after four years is still more work than just adding a new device that works in tandem with the current system, that already works, even if it's always seemed like an "I WIN" hail mary to some people.

Whatever.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Surely a major rework of something people are used to, and reluctant to let go of after four years is still more work than just adding a new device that works in tandem with the current system, that already works, even if it's always seemed like an "I WIN" hail mary to some people.

Have you ever played No Man's Sky? The game changes drastically at every major update: new materials, new blue prints for the very same technologies, old tools removed, new tools introduced, new scanner mechanics, new type of fuels, new key locations for basic features and so on...
This seems not to concern players in general when a better game is released.

I'm not concerned on this topic at all.

 

[babelfisch]

Have you ever played No Man's Sky? The game changes drastically at every major update: new materials, new blue prints for the very same technologies, old tools removed, new tools introduced, new scanner mechanics, new type of fuels, new key locations for basic features and so on...
This seems not to concern players in general when a better game is released.

I'm not concerned on this topic at all.

You somehow got the wrong name in that quote...

 

[Six6VI]

Whatever.

lol, I'm still gonna "touch it once" and catalogue the entirety of every unexplored system I visit (including belt clusters) so I can rely on my 'visited systems' filter being completed.

After 9000+ hours, I'm still gonna keep playing too, no matter what FDev try to shoehorn in to finally give us the up close and personal tools needed to find the hidden treasures.

I really don't care either way, but some do, LOUDLY

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

You somehow got the wrong name in that quote...

Ouch! Sorry for the mistake! Corrected...

 

[Six6VI]

Ouch! Sorry for the mistake! Corrected...

Thanks, I like to keep ownership of the rubbish I come up with

 

[babelfisch]

lol, I'm still gonna "touch it once" and catalogue the entirety of every unexplored system I visit (including belt clusters) so I can rely on my 'visited systems' filter being completed.

After 9000+ hours, I'm still gonna keep playing too, no matter what FDev try to shoehorn in to finally give us the up close and personal tools needed to find the hidden treasures.

I really don't care either way, but some do, LOUDLY

Look, I wasn't judging your opinion on the game or mechanics and I didn't deny that some people have rightful criticism on the new system. All I pointed out is that your suggestion is very unlikely to happen and that it isn't very simple. It's unlikely to happen because FDEV is not going to scrap their work. And if they would, just to please the few people that have been complaining about the removal of the instant honk, how many people are going to complain about the reintroduction of the instant honk? I don't believe this would settle the discussions on the forums, quite the contrary.

The same is true for your suggestion to add new modules rather than replacing the existing ones. Currently almost nobody complains about keeping their modules. Everyone seems to be fine with the idea that they don't need to fly back to the bubble to experience the new exploration gameplay. I don't believe that nobody would complain if you now suddenly take that away from them again. You would just start the next endless forum debate.

That said, you are right from a lore / immersion point of view, but sometimes this kind of stuff needs to happen to improve the game. I also understand the issues some people have with FDEVs vision and that's the reason why I am participating in a discussion thread to gather ideas for compromises. I just think that your particular idea isn't going to happen and that it isn't going to solve anything at all (in terms of stupid discussions on this forum).

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Thanks, I like to keep ownership of the rubbish I come up with

That's very important for me too! [haha]

 

[babelfisch]

Thanks, I like to keep ownership of the rubbish I come up with

That's very important for me too! [haha]

At least we agree on something.

 

[kofeyh]

Personally I think we need to see it in action before passing judgement. If it takes a few minutes to scan a bigish system (20-30 bodies), then I am fine with the new mechanics as it is.

I can't see how it would be any less, Max. Let's take say 10 bodies, and we allow say up to 30 seconds, to locate each one; some will take more, others might be less, noting that many will be in an equatorial position, but not always and we're not entirely sure how much help the new mini-game will offer.

And it's a 360º skybox. That's a pretty hopeful figure though; I mean we're gonna end up half decent at it, through shear repetition, but still.

I have enough difficulty at times actually visually spotting some planets even when the almighty honk has done its job and I tend to use the left hand menu. Which, won't now work the same because you can't just select the next planet, until you've found it.. Right?

So I hope the mechanic is a little more robust than the wave scanner, and the miniscule audio associated. Because, cousin, that'd be pretty hard work, just for one system, let alone thousands. Just how many times do people actually think they will be using the mini-game?

Frontier could have nailed it. But I'm gonna see what Beta brings. Like anything, the devil is in the (esoteric) detail.

 

[Six6VI]

Look, I wasn't judging your opinion on the game or mechanics and I didn't deny that some people have rightful criticism on the new system. All I pointed out is that your suggestion is very unlikely to happen and that it isn't very simple. It's unlikely to happen because FDEV is not going to scrap their work. And if they would, just to please the few people that have been complaining about the removal of the instant honk, how many people are going to complain about the reintroduction of the instant honk? I don't believe this would settle the discussions on the forums, quite the contrary. The same is true for your suggestion to add new modules rather than replacing the existing ones. Currently almost nobody complains about keeping their modules. Everyone seems to be fine with the idea that they don't need to fly back to the bubble to experience the new exploration gameplay. I don't believe that nobody would complain if you now suddenly take that away from them again. You would just start the next endless forum debate. That said, you are right from a lore / immersion point of view, but sometimes this kind of stuff needs to happen to improve the game. I also understand the issues some people have with FDEVs vision and that's the reason why I am participating in a discussion thread to gather ideas for compromises. I just think that your particular idea isn't going to happen and that it isn't going to solve anything at all (in terms of stupid discussions on this forum).

Fair enough. I confess I didn't read this entire thread, but I did read the other one (and don't recall seeing any posts from you?) so it's possible the two threads have become heavily polarised into the two, for and against camps. The current ADS always did seem too easy, and there are minor things I'd change, like Nav Beacon scanning in SC being pushed onto the core sensors module for example. But, what FDev are proposing now seems like a huge amount of (very cool) work when a much simpler and more streamlined solution might have been more effective.

Doubling or tripling the base range of the current DSS may have done just as good a job of significantly reducing flight times perhaps? I've scanned a lot of secondaries well over 100KLS out, and their planets and that seems to me like it would have been a time saver but it wouldn't have stopped me landing on one if I wanted the Polonium, etc...

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I can't see how it would be any less, Max. Let's take say 10 bodies, and we allow say up to 30 seconds, to locate each one; some will take more, others might be less, noting that many will be in an equatorial position, but not always and we're not entirely sure how much help the new mini-game will offer.

And it's a 360º skybox. That's a pretty hopeful figure though; I mean we're gonna end up half decent at it, through shear repetition, but still.

I have enough difficulty at times actually visually spotting some planets even when the almighty honk has done its job and I tend to use the left hand menu. Which, won't now work the same because you can't just select the next planet, until you've found it.. Right?

So I hope the mechanic is a little more robust than the wave scanner, and the miniscule audio associated. Because, cousin, that'd be pretty hard work, just for one system, let alone thousands. Just how many times do people actually think they will be using the mini-game?

Frontier could have nailed it. But I'm gonna see what Beta brings. Like anything, the devil is in the (esoteric) detail.

Depends if I intend to fully scan every system as I go to. If I can look at the wave forms to get a general overview and I like what I see, then I will start scanning. If I don't like what I see, I will move on to the next system.

As I said, we need to see how it works. I don't mind stuff taking time, as long as I enjoy doing it and find it interesting. At the moment the current mechanics are not interesting, are boring and don't actually give me a sense of discovery and exploration in any shape or form.

If there are more POI on planets and in space then these new mechanics could really shine, also if they intend to add more POI in space and on planets in the futere that they have good mechanics for that, then I see it as a good thing.

But I need to try them out first to see how it goes. I cannot tell from a few screenshots and a bit of written blurb. I need to experience it or have someone show me the experience to get a better angle on whether I like the new system.

As I said it may need to be streamlined if it take too long.

 

[babelfisch]

Fair enough. I confess I didn't read this entire thread, but I did read the other one (and don't recall seeing any posts from you?) so it's possible the two threads have become heavily polarised into the two, for and against camps. The current ADS always did seem too easy, and there are minor things I'd change, like Nav Beacon scanning in SC being pushed onto the core sensors module for example. But, what FDev are proposing now seems like a huge amount of (very cool) work when a much simpler and more streamlined solution might have been more effective.

Doubling or tripling the base range of the current DSS may have done just as good a job of significantly reducing flight times perhaps? I've scanned a lot of secondaries well over 100KLS out, and their planets and that seems to me like it would have been a time saver and it wouldn't have stopped me landing on one if I wanted the Polonium, etc...

While this would certainly have stopped the complains about the current proposal, another part of the forums would complain about their lazy exploration overhaul calling it minimum viable product and just another disappointment. People would point out that FDEV hates explorers and that their overhaul is a joke because it doesn't really overhaul anything.

 

[kofeyh]

How do they currently buy new shinies? Considering they were probably aware they'd have to come back to the bubble for newly added stuff, before they left...

I know a few who don't have the guardian FSD booster, because they are still out there, in some cases they left before it was added the first time, let alone the second. Maybe consideration of what people actually do, verus "probably" might be a thing of value.

If Frontier wants to change defacto behaviour, they have to change the existing modules. Otherwise, it's not defacto is it, and if I didn't have to change to the new world order, would I? I reckon maybe a few wouldn't. So Frontier don't really have a lot of choices, there, do they.

So, if Frontier are going to change da wae exploration works, as a mandatory outcome, then they have to change da wae the existing modules work. Just a thought.

As I said, we need to see how it works.

Yep. On that we agree.

 

[Six6VI]

While this would certainly have stopped the complains about the current proposal, another part of the forums would complain about their lazy exploration overhaul calling it minimum viable product and just another disappointment. People would point out that FDEV hates explorers and that their overhaul is a joke because it doesn't really overhaul anything.

I hear ya. Damned if they do, damned if they don't...

Has been said a couple of times over there already

I know a few who don't have the guardian FSD booster, because they are still out there, in some cases they left before it was added the first time, let alone the second. Maybe consideration of what people actually do, verus "probably" might be a thing of value.

If Frontier wants to change defacto behaviour, they have to change the existing modules. Otherwise, it's not defacto is it, and if I didn't have to change to the new world order, would I? I reckon maybe a few wouldn't. So Frontier don't really have a lot of choices, there, do they.

So, if Frontier are going to change da wae exploration works, as a mandatory outcome, then they have to change da wae the existing modules work. Just a thought.



Yep. On that we agree.

Yep, bring on the beta and we'll all know

 

[M_Biscotti]

If I correctly understood what they want us to do with the revamp, I don't think they could use this idea. What I understood is that they want us to discover each body one by one with the stellar scanner and then using the surface scanner to find persistent POIs. (and nothing better than what we have today for non persistent ones).