ship interiors - will they happen

[Lukaz_Chrom]

"I have an idea. Let's focus our dev team's efforts on the development of ship interiors for a couple of months. A couple of rooms per ship will do. That way they will be able to leave the pilot's seat, walk to the generator room and do some repairs manually, using a screwdriver, bringing up the integrity of their power plant to 100% from 99%. We will only need to find a way to fully rewrite some fundamental parts of our code to decouple CMDRs and their ships. It's easy. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?"

Dude are you ACTUALLY trying to portray THIS as the MAIN-REASON for Ship Interiors XD
It is A reason.
Not THE reason.
That would be the added immersion and the consequential Arx-$ from Decoration.

But I'm fairly certain you are well aware of this -.-

 

[thistle]

Yes. As I said, "peacemeal". Let's say you release one Ship-Interior for ONE Ship a month (or 2 moths if need be).
That would give one of the chief-developers ample time to do nothing else.
(granted he would have to know what he's doing so you could task an apprentice with this but yeah)

A single dev can do a lot, clearly, but that's not the issue. It's all the other systems and code that would be affected, and more than that it would need to be thought about carefully and designed first.

As I've said repeatedly, of course fdev could add interiors, simple or complex. But the "simple" version people seem to imagine a single dev could knock out in a day wouldn't be so simple in practice.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

A single dev can do a lot, clearly, but that's not the issue. It's all the other systems and code that would be affected, and more than that it would need to be thought about carefully and designed first.

Which would be?
This question was asked before and the only real answer that was given up to this point was:
"Changes to the AFMU, it would have to be nerfed to make manual repair viable ". [Which actually, is not even true, as it really wouldn't have to be ...]
ONLY to then, when it suits the argument be like:
"We should change the AFMU, so it can also repair the Generator, so you can't use it as an argument in favor of Ship Repair and Ship Interiors "
.-.

As I've said repeatedly, of course fdev could add interiors, simple or complex. But the "simple" version people seem to imagine a single dev could knock out in a day wouldn't be so simple in practice.

Not in a day, if they were to go this route, that particular dev would do nothing else for roughly 5 years :/
(So I hope they don't and instead task a few more).

 

[thistle]

Which would be?
This question was aked before and the only real answer that was given up to this point was:
"Changes to the AFMU, it would have to be nerfed to make manual repair viable ". [Which actually, is not even true, as it really wouldn't have to be ...]
ONLY to then, when it suits the argument be like:
"We should change the AFMU, so it can also repair the Generator."
.-.

I don't mean game features that would need to be added, I mean the affected systems in the code that would need changed to allow any new feature to be integrated.

Have a single dev create an interior. Okay. What in the code has to change to allow the player to stand up, walk around, repair generators, or whatever? What game logic has to change?

I'm talking about the boring design and coding decisions behind the curtain, not game systems for the user. It all takes design and coding and time.

Just like any new feature, thargoid war, colonisation, carriers, whatever.

Not in a day, if they were to go this route, that particular dev would do nothing else for roughly 5 years :/
(So I hope they don't and instead task a few more).

I was exaggerating when I said a day, but tasking on dev to do something you imagine is simple will involve more work than you think, affecting other parts of the code.

 

[DemiserofD]

It can't repair the Generator XD

That doesn't change the problems I highlighted. The only time a low-hp generator matters is if you're being shot at, and in that circumstance, you'll always be better off going to a nearby station for repair.

Exactly, it wouldn't be.

If it were cheap, they'd have done it already. The fact they haven't proves it's expensive and difficult.

A. Not everybody has an AFMU.
B. I get the feeling you really didn't know that the AFMU can not repair the Generator (Btw. it also can't repair itself )

If you don't have an AFMU, your build was designed not to need one, and you don't need internal repairs. If you do have an AFMU, you don't need internal manual repairs. Either way, ship interior repairs are pointless.

And the power plant doesn't need to be repaired unless you're getting shot at.

There are mutliple suggested concepts for how Ship Interiors could be developed.
The cheapest of them could easily be done by even a single Dev.
The keyword being "peacmeal". You do them one-at-a-time for one ship at-a-time.
But even that would likely be entirely unneccessariy because they could easiyl re-use a lot of rooms for similar Ships.
E.g. I doubt the machine-room of the Type-9 would be that different from a Type-10.

I've gone through the entire thread. There are basically four suggestions for Interiors.

Boarding
Salvage/Repairs
Cosmetics
Being able to do things like navigate or swap loadouts at an internal table instead of via menus.

Boarding doesn't work in flight, and if it can only happen on the ground, it might as well not exist at all. It works the wrong direction; it only makes sense if interiors make sense, it doesn't justify interiors.
Salvage/Repairs we've just discussed. Repairs are the main thing, since they're the part that actually takes place inside the ship, while Salvage already exists and is the outside of the ship. But as we've discussed, Repairs are pointless. Either way, it only makes sense if interiors make sense, it doesn't justify interiors.
Cosmetics alone aren't enough.
Neither is doing things like navigating or swapping loadouts.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

I don't mean game features that would need to be added, I mean the affected systems in the code that would need changed to allow any new feature to be integrated.
Have a single dev create an interior. Okay. What in the code has to change to allow the player to stand up, walk around, repair generators, or whatever? What game logic has to change?
I'm talking about the boring design and coding decisions behind the curtain, not game systems for the user. It all takes design and coding and time.
Just like any new feature, thargoid war, colonisation, carriers, whatever.

The framework, such as loading-screens to enter certain rooms and a few character-animations would likely initially have to be developed by a larger force.
Yes. But I am willing to take every bet, that alone would be easier than you like to portray it XD
I mean seriously, it is just WALKING and entering a loading screen ...

I was exaggerating when I said a day, but tasking on dev to do something you imagine is simple will involve more work than you think, affecting other parts of the code.

... Ofc it won't be "easy".
But Ship Interiors would neither be as hard as you like to portray them as here ... not even close :/

 

[thistle]

The amount of times my old boss would ask me if feature x could be added for our users, I'd say sure but it would take time, and a few days later he'd assume it was already done. No, it hadn't even been spec'd yet, good grief.

It's never as simple as people think to add something simple. And I wasnt working in games development, just boring database systems.

 

[galahad2069]

HOHOHO
Now it is YOUR side that tries to make changes to an existing system to actually justify NOT having Ship Interiors
Quite telling don't you think

And as was said before my dude,
IF FDev will make such a change to the AFMU, you will never see me on this Forum again

I am absolutely not trying to make changes to the existing system. Powerplants can remain unrepairable for all eternity, for all I care.

I merely described what the easiest way would be if fdev wanted to change it.

 

[thistle]

... Ofc it won't be "easy".
But Ship Interiors would neither be as hard as you like to portray them as here ... not even close :/

It's never been about it being hard. It's just time and money. And the more complicated you want the feature, the more time and money.

Will fdev ever do it? I've no idea. I suspect not, not after 10 years.

 

[Coolgroove]

They serve no purpose other than RP walking around and decorating rooms.

Even if the most basic implementation is this to start with - great, a lot of players would love that, especially if there was a good indication of more to come.

They don't intersect with other game systems and have no impact on the galaxy.

Not every feature has impact on the galaxy. Or what is impact on the galaxy? ELWs exit right now, if they were made accessible would it be an impact on the galaxy? If yes, then it mean that impact on a galaxy is more of direct access to something that exists in the Galaxy. Ships do exist in the galaxy, interiors provide access to them in much more detailed and personal form. Including access to other ships/wrecks/derelicts/etc. They create a richer experience to interact with the game and objects in the galaxy.

Ship is the fundamental system in the game. Ship interiors intersect with it as closely as no other feature ever can.

Very few people are going to interact with them after the first month.

If they have gameplay, or at the very least there is an indication of more gameplay to follow after the initial implementation - a lot of players would interact with them regularly for as long as they are playing the game.

People in this thread (including you) are bending over backwards to come up with "features" that would benefit from ship interiors. Ship boarding, science labs, ship repair minigames, and more. The only way you can justify ship interiors is by coming up with more features on top of them.

Don't see any bending.

If the feature of Colonisation was exactly the same as previous CGs - no gameplay of actual Colonisation, no ability to pick a system, no planning, nothing else but hauling something somewhere to build something pre-planned with no decisions or any control or input from the players - do you think it would be as good as it is?

Do you think that ability to pick a system, make a claim, plan and build - all that are features on top of Colonisation? or are they parts of Colonisation feature as a whole? Rhetorical questions.

The same way all the ideas for the gameplay for Ship Interiors - these are ideas how to make the feature of Ship Interiors as a whole - rich, interesting and engaging.

If the feature can't be useful on its own and relies on years of development to be useful... that alone should make it low priority.

You can separate parts of the same feature as different all you want, it won't change the fact these are all one feature.

Ship Interiors is the name of the feature that community gave it. Ship Interiors themselves are a place, ideas for the gameplay is what players could do in that place. Everything together is a big feature for the game.

As for years - any of the big features would take a long time and a lot of effort/resources/money to do. Ship Interiors are on a lower/easier side in all categories of expences. On top of that, they can be conveniently cut into parts, both with models and gameplay, to be released in a proven successful way of Early Access / mini-DLCs (similar to current new ships), which lowers the risk and makes them available, part by part, sooner.

Popularity, possibilities for development and potential for monetization should make it a top priority.

Being able to walk around on your own ship doesn't intersect with any other game systems or the galaxy at large.

It does. Everybody are using ships to interact with galaxy on almost every scale, most definitely at large. Be definition it makes their interiors intersect with everything to some extent.

But that's not what the initial ship interior release will look like. Those are all half baked ideas that would come much later (if at all). And I personally don't want to wait multiple years to get meaningful gameplay.

You'll be happy RP walking around your ship while everyone else waits for actual gameplay features. No thank you.

For any big feature there are two options:

• many years of waiting and then DLC with it,
• or cut it to parts, develop quicker and release sooner, iterate on the feature with each release by adding and improving.

Interiors fit nicely with the second option. Especially for anyone who doesn't want to wait for years just to see how it is, including developers themselves. The link I pointed you to earlier has an outcome of a very good and fruitful conversation about it.

You've said you're ok with features being not for everybody. So what if there is a delay between somebody enjoying RP in interiors and more options? There are players who could be waiting for the ship of their dream for years, there are players who are waiting for interesting gameplay and not Colonisation for an unknown amount of time, etc. Just as with everything else - there is something in the game to do that you can enjoy while waiting for something new you could enjoy.

Meh. Odyssey was released without support for VR. I think this cohesion and fluidity thing is out the window at this point.

VR is something to play the game with. Cohesion and fluidity of the game modes and gameplay is how everything inside the game connects and the flow of the gameplay. One does not influence the other. VR has it's own importance.

What does matter is how long it takes and what other systems are neglected in order to have it.

What other systems were neglected for Colonisation to be developed? For PP 2.0?

I get it, you want other things more and everything cannot realistically happen at once. If the next addition will be more to your liking - great, you'll get something new to play with, if it's not to my liking - I'll have to wait for something else to happen. And vice versa. That is how "I'm okay with them adding features I don't want' works, right?

It really doesn't matter what you personally want. What matters is giving the playerbase something engaging to actually do. That will help keep the game alive.

Player base consists of you me and every other player. There are also potential new players to attract. What you, me, anybody else and every single one wants is important, because the bigger the specific want of the bigger part of the player base - the more potential for that feature to be successful for the game as a whole and for current/returning/new players.

If there is a big number of players who find Ship Interiors and possible gameplay attractive/compelling/engaging - then it is something very important for the developer to consider.

If what one individual wants is not important - then what are you doing here talking about what you want or don't want?

You might not like hauling but colonization has created a huge amount of activity in the game. This is exactly what Elite needed. Walking around your own ship (what you really care about - let's be honest) is only beneficial to a small % of you that want to roleplay.

Yes it did create a huge amount of activity and engagement with the game. It is fantastic. That is what every new feature release has to do. With the amount of observable demand for ship interiors - the potential is even bigger.

what you really care about - let's be honest

as a side none - I've said explicitly what I really want/care about, even pointed you to link with details. Restrain yourself from saying something that is not true. There is no need for that to continue, we are having a decent conversation, lets not derail it.

I mean FDev have already officially told you.

In the beginning there were big plans for it. Some time ago there were no plans for it. Times change. Plans change. Especially when there is a popular demand.

They said on their stream that there's no point in adding ship interiors because there wouldn't be any gameplay associated with that. People will walk around their ships a few times and never do it again. FDev said this. Not me.

They never said this^
I understand that it could be your personal interpretation for how you may had perceived it. But if you make such claims - provide a proof of these words being said.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

That doesn't change the problems I highlighted. The only time a low-hp generator matters is if you're being shot at, and in that circumstance, you'll always be better off going to a nearby station for repair.

You clearly haven't flown a combat-Mamba over long distances yet have you :/
BUT:
Yes you are right, combat would likely be an even MORE important argument here!
As menitioned, imgaine you barely survive a far-out fight with a module-sniper and your Generator is at 10% ...
Now Idk about you but I would LOVE the ability to manually repair it

If it were cheap, they'd have done it already. The fact they haven't proves it's expensive and difficult.

You think of FDev as an infailable core of oracles? ... I most certainly don't XD

If you don't have an AFMU, your build was designed not to need one, and you don't need internal repairs. If you do have an AFMU, you don't need internal repairs.

Every Ship might need internal repairs
Sure some of them more so than others but that doesn't change the core-premisse of the argument.

I've gone through the entire thread. There are basically four suggestions for Interiors.

Boarding
Salvage/Repairs
Cosmetics
Being able to do things like navigate or swap loadouts at an internal table instead of via menus.

And ... you think those would not be enough?
What the hell else do you want
Even if we scratch boarding (not a huge advocate of that particular feature either).

Salvage/Repairs we've just discussed. Repairs are the main thing, since they're the part that actually takes place inside the ship, while Salvage already exists and is the outside of the ship. But as we've discussed, Repairs are pointless.

And you come to this conclusion how?
"As we've discussed" the ability to repair your Generator ALONE would already be a tremendous boon.
But you purposefully ignore this argument or also advocate for changes to the existing AFMU so it would at least devalue this argument a bit.

Cosmetics alone aren't enough.
Neither is doing things like navigating or swapping loadouts.

Actually, here I just flat out think you are wrong.
Warframe has proven that clearly:
Cosmetics alone are 100% enough if done right.
DOESN'T MEAN THEY SHOULD BE ALONE OFC!
Which leads us back to Ship Repair
EVEN if done minimally.

 

[Coolgroove]

If a ship doesn't have an AFMU or repair limpets, it's because they didn't need them.

Are you telling me you know why and how everybody outfits their ship? or that is some form of "I think that is the correct way to do it" ?
If I don't fit repair limpets or AMFU the only thing that means is that I need other modules in these slots more, but in no way shape or form it means I don't need to make repairs.

If you need repairs, and don't have repairs, it's ALWAYS going to be faster to just travel to a station with repairs. That's just the nature of travel in Elite, sorry to say.

I don't care if it is faster. Faster is just one of the options. More immersive alternative that is slower can be very compelling to me, and many other players.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

Oh yeah and about this;

It's never been about it being hard. It's just time and money. And the more complicated you want the feature, the more time and money.

Will fdev ever do it? I've no idea. I suspect not, not after 10 years.

TIME AND MONEY!
This is the TRUE main reason why FDev SHOULD 100% do Ship Interiors.

It would require comparatively minimal investments of time and money to implement,
while yielding comparatively maximal profits.
AND
a huge amount of appreciation from the community as a side-bonus

 

[galahad2069]

"As we've discussed" the ability to repair your Generator ALONE would already be a tremendous boon.

The whole discussion in the last couple of pages proves pretty clearly that it would be anything but tremendous.

The fact that you had to come up with such examples as combat Mambas flown over long distances is a glaring sign of that.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

The whole discussion in the last couple of pages proves pretty clearly that it would be anything but tremendous.

So the ability to manually repair certain parts of your ship [especially considering the limitations of the AFMU] wouldn't be "tremendous" to you ... ok.
AH YES ofc, you showcased so magnificently that you would rather make changes to the existing AFMU JUST so we wouldn't need Ship Interiors

The fact that you had to come up with such examples as combat Mambas flown over long distances is a glaring sign of that.

Just ONE example my dude XD
Another would be the good old Exploration-Overheating, it happens often enough :/

And the issue of far-out module sniping ...
Guess that was really not your preferred example to "debunk" huh.

 

[galahad2069]

So the ability to manually repair certain parts of your ship [especially considering the limitations of the AFMU] wouldn't be "tremendous" to you ... ok.
AH YES ofc, you showcased so magnificently that you would rather make changes to the existing AFMU JUST so we wouldn't need Ship Interiors


Just ONE example my dude XD
Another would be the good old Exploration-Overheating, it happens often enough :/

And the issue of far-out module sniping ...
Guess that was really not your preferred example to "debunk" huh.

No, overheating absolutely does not happen often in exploration, and it's totally irrelevant 99.999% of the time even when it does.

Not sure what you are trying to say about module sniping.

Module sniping is not happening while you are exploring out in the black. In the Bubble where your modules might happen to be sniped there are repair facilities everywhere. AFMUs are useless in PvP situations anyway (and so would be manual repair if it was a thing). AX is the only kind of combat in which AFMUs and repair limpets are not totally pointless (but manual repair would be).

 

[metatheurgist]

I think the funniest thing is the argument that there has to be "worthwhile" features. I see nothing worthwhile from their last 2 game updates. PP nothing but a mindless grind for modules and pointless rank. Colonoscopy, pointless extension of the same old repetitive systems that don't actually deliver the ownership that the people that have asked for that style of game really want, with bonus mindless hauling grind.

 

[krylite]

It's long been discussed. Despite it all, I do believe ship interiors will one day come to ED. Frontier has gradually made progress on the kickstarter concepts and ideas depicted in the preconceptual paintings over the years. It just takes patience as usual and waiting for FDev and Frontier to realize enough time and resources and opportune times in a given year or planning to start on a new phase of major feature updates similar to what was done with Odyssey and fleet carriers in the past, and before that multicrew which was a precursor to the team feature applied with Odyssey (so multiple cmdrs in a hangar was eventually realized as was shown in one of ED's first trailers) , and fighter bays and npc and pc flyable fighter craft.

I'd think what's pretty tough and complex about ED compared to most other space themed games and slight sims out there is that there's ongoing layers of ongoing simulated structure in the game already from galactic and interstellar distances down to intrasystem and planetary distances and astrometrics, and that still has to exist with any new developments. I thought it was quite an achievment with Odyssey and settlements where there could now be combined ships and air and on foot combat going on in the same instance over a settlement while the planet continues to rotate and the suns could set and rise all the while. No other spacesim today has this well realized this combined level of concurrent 'fidelity' in background simulation which makes ED so unique and bar-setting still.

Like take the old running microsoft flight sim games. The scope is the entire world, and then miles of detail around the central active player object. Then there's an added optional layer of internal cockpit with some premiere 3rd party addons like the pmdg planes and other expensive addons that took years to make for each particular product plane. Some of them make use of the internal area for 'passenger interiors'. But it's still mostly a singular player experience that's not quite the possible populated structure of npcs and pcs in an instance like ED has, nor is there a simulated ongoing solar system, except for maybe moon and sun 2d positioning.

So what could be a first step for ship interiors in ED? I would think something very basic and in a function like Starfield. Docked and stationary ships, then opened up to a few rooms. But once moving, players and npcs are automatically put into stationary positions and the interiors are no longer free roaming while in flight. Similar enough to what's going on with cockpits and bridges now currently, except maybe one or two more rooms or hallways added per ship. It could be made where one could be situated at seatable spots in certain rooms as a passenger, while another player or npc crew, autoflies to a destination similar to the apex taxi system way of navigating. Then it could be cancelled at anytime, with 'blackout screen' transitioning and entering normal mode, the pilot is put back into the pilot seat to take over because the ship is already flying.

I don't really mind which comes first, first types of interiors to ships, or further development of planetary features , atmospheric worlds, even curated lore cities and habitable planets. I would even like to see (apartment) rooms on stations, or even in orbis rings, where you could walk in the yards under the glass of the orbis wheels , or one could have and grow a small plot of land. Walk and relax in the parks in stations, etc.

 

[DemiserofD]

As menitioned, imgaine you barely survive a far-out fight with a module-sniper and your Generator is at 10% ...

If you survived, then there's no need to repair it. You'll waste ten minutes doing what you can do in 3 minutes of travel time to get to a station. The only time it could even theoretically be worth it is if you somehow were way out in the black where there are no stations nearby AND you're going to get shot at sometime soon - conditions that are incredibly rare at best.

That's the basic problem with most interiors suggestions. They only add worse ways of doing what we already have plenty of better options to do. Why bother having, say, a 'map table' inside our ship when we can just press 5 and open the galaxy map? It's a lot of dev work for, essentially, nothing. And before you ask, yeah, there are doubtless a few, rare, isolated circumstances where interiors could be worth using. But they're incredibly niche things(like getting shot at thousands of light years from the bubble), which doesn't lend itself to being a good dev investment.

Remember, I'm not against the idea if it were free, I just don't see it being worth the effort, when we're just adding a sub-par way to do what we can already do. IF we had a decent reason for interiors to exist in the first place, then you could justify any number of sub-features. Cosmetics, repairs, interior salvage, etc. It's just that none of those things - not even combined - are worth the development effort on their own. Because, again, you're going to end up spending as much dev time doing that as you would for something like Colonization or Thargoid Spires, which provide thousands of times more playtime.

Are you telling me you know why and how everybody outfits their ship? or that is some form of "I think that is the correct way to do it" ?
If I don't fit repair limpets or AMFU the only thing that means is that I need other modules in these slots more, but in no way shape or form it means I don't need to make repairs.

If someone went to a conflict zone without weapons, and then complained that they couldn't do any damage, are you going to add some new way of doing damage to the game? Or are you going to tell them their build is wrong?

If you build a ship that will need repairs, and you don't include the existing means of repairs, then yes, it is objectively the incorrect way of building that ship.

 

[DemiserofD]

I think the funniest thing is the argument that there has to be "worthwhile" features. I see nothing worthwhile from their last 2 game updates. PP nothing but a mindless grind for modules and pointless rank. Colonoscopy, pointless extension of the same old repetitive systems that don't actually deliver the ownership that the people that have asked for that style of game really want, with bonus mindless hauling grind.

It might not be for you, which is fair - but you can still look at it rationally and analyze how many hours of playtime each one has prompted. Powerplay 2.0, for example, probably took less total dev time to implement than ship interiors would, but has provided probably hundreds of thousands of hours of player engagement. Colonization we can be even more accurate about, since we know the statistics. 983,599,593 units of cargo delivered in the first week translates to something like 218,577 hours of gameplay.

Even if you used ship interiors regularly, you'd not get numbers like that for months, because there just aren't that many opportunities to use ship interior content.