Something I've Noticed

[avietar]

I honestly don't know that the majority don't want extinct animals. Just like I really wouldn't be sure about the majority not wanting marine mammals. I think there is a large portion of players who would actually like these things, but they are either not active on forums or not voicing their opinion due to it not being 'accepted'.
As a random example, I would like extinct animals (recently extinct, that is). And my roommate who doesn't participate in forums really wants orcas. People want what they want. I think an extinct pack and a marine pack would sell very well, despite all the people who have loud opinions against it.

 

[yoav_r]

I honestly don't know that the majority don't want extinct animals. Just like I really wouldn't be sure about the majority not wanting marine mammals. I think there is a large portion of players who would actually like these things, but they are either not active on forums or not voicing their opinion due to it not being 'accepted'.
As a random example, I would like extinct animals (recently extinct, that is). And my roommate who doesn't participate in forums really wants orcas. People want what they want. I think an extinct pack and a marine pack would sell very well, despite all the people who have loud opinions against it.

I think people don't want extinct animals because of JWE, JWE2, and PK. With so many games with a much better focus on extinct animals, people want to get as much focus on living animals from the single good zoo game on the market in the last decade and a half.

 

[yoav_r]

Exactly, I don't get why so many people think ZT2 was superior here.

Zoo Tycoon 2 (Base game): 30 species
Endangered Species (Expansion): 20 Species
African Adventure (Expansion): 20 Species
Marine Mania (Expansion): 20 Species
Extinct Animals (Expansion): 35 Species
Official Bonus Downloads: 5 Species
= 130 Species

With all the DLCs we are now at 108 species in PZ, and support for PZ haven't ended yet. 5 more DLCs for PZ with at 5 animals and we are above that number.

I agree, and I'd remove both EA, because for extinct animals there's PK and JWE/2, so there is no demand for that in PZ. Plus, we also have exhibits in PZ, which we didn't really have in ZT2 (we did have like this one terrarium object, but it's not in anyway close to PZ)

 

[Doran]

We had shows and underwater mechanics in MM.

Fun fact: If you ever wondered about frontier's weird decisions then Blue Fang in MM made diving mechanics only for polar bears and emperor penguins from base game. According to their research back then, nile crocodiles and beavers couldnt dive so they skipped applying new mechanic for them.

 

[Urufu1997]

Fun fact: If you ever wondered about frontier's weird decisions then Blue Fang in MM made diving mechanics only for polar bears and emperor penguins from base game. According to their research back then, nile crocodiles and beavers couldnt dive so they skipped applying new mechanic for them.

Wait a Second. They really thought Beavers couldn't dive? They even need to dive to get into their Dam

 

[avietar]

I think people don't want extinct animals because of JWE, JWE2, and PK. With so many games with a much better focus on extinct animals, people want to get as much focus on living animals from the single good zoo game on the market in the last decade and a half.

Don't care about dinosaurs. Prehistoric Kingdom isn't out yet. Again, people want what they want, and I'd like to build a park where I can have thylacines and kangaroos, bluebucks and gazelles, tarpans and wisents and aurochs sharing a habitat like they always have. In my eyes, these recently extinct animals are as much part of the ecosystem as their still alive counterparts. The only thing they have going against them is people exterminated them, and not their contemporaries... Not yet, that is.

 

[Doran]

Wait a Second. They really thought Beavers couldn't dive? They even need to dive to get into their Dam

Apparently yes.

 

[SotF]

Exactly, I don't get why so many people think ZT2 was superior here.

Zoo Tycoon 2 (Base game): 30 species
Endangered Species (Expansion): 20 Species
African Adventure (Expansion): 20 Species
Marine Mania (Expansion): 20 Species
Extinct Animals (Expansion): 35 Species
Official Bonus Downloads: 5 Species
= 130 Species

With all the DLCs we are now at 108 species in PZ, and support for PZ haven't ended yet. 5 more DLCs for PZ with at 5 animals and we are above that number.

The Extinct Animals one should be split up there, it was actually a smaller DLC that had all of the few dinos there folded into the Expansion with some changes and updates.

You also had the massive pile of fan created animals with APE

 

[SalamAnders]

The Extinct Animals one should be split up there, it was actually a smaller DLC that had all of the few dinos there folded into the Expansion with some changes and updates.

You also had the massive pile of fan created animals with APE

The 4 dinos from the Dino Danger Pack (I think it was called) is part of the 35. And I only included official animals in this

 

[AndyZoos]

The math in terms of Planet Zoo vs. ZT2 in terms of animals isn't all that different. We get about the same number of animals each year as the ZT2 expansions... And the PZ DLC packs are infinitely more in terms of building pieces, props, foliage, etc.

The complaint is mostly around the number of animals. And, when you really think about it, people are just afraid they won't be getting their own favorites. For example: Capybaras! Capybaras are a very popular animal. But Frontier has already released a South American DLC pack. Current popular thinking is that PZ only has 2-3 more DLC packs to go before Frontier stops supporting the game. So of course people are going to get tense about the number of animals in each pack.

If Frontier were to come out and just say "Hey, we're working on more new content for you to buy! Expect it sometime in the fall!" I think that would only help the situation. The more specific they are willing to get, the better but something vague like that would at least get people talking. And it would help people to feel more confident that the game will receive continued support -- maybe not new updates or features -- but new DLC packs for a while longer. Which would encourage more discussion, etc.

If you think about Frontier-driven discussion as far as DLC goes? They never acknowledge that something new is coming until about a week before it does. So there is a ~3 month drought between info. Which leaves people wondering, and unfortunately often assuming the worst about the future of the game.

Engaging with fans about what is coming down the pipeline would (a) help fans to feel more included in the process, (b) stimulate continued discussion online about the game and its future (including videos from content creators), (c) help players to plan out their zoos, and (d) because of A and B, I think it would help to strengthen the already strong community and bring even more people to the game.

Especially when it's a game that already has loads and loads of content available for it, acknowledging that there is even more coming down the pipeline could only help things!

 

[StoppableSan]

The math in terms of Planet Zoo vs. ZT2 in terms of animals isn't all that different. We get about the same number of animals each year as the ZT2 expansions... And the PZ DLC packs are infinitely more in terms of building pieces, props, foliage, etc.

The complaint is mostly around the number of animals. And, when you really think about it, people are just afraid they won't be getting their own favorites. For example: Capybaras! Capybaras are a very popular animal. But Frontier has already released a South American DLC pack. Current popular thinking is that PZ only has 2-3 more DLC packs to go before Frontier stops supporting the game. So of course people are going to get tense about the number of animals in each pack.

If Frontier were to come out and just say "Hey, we're working on more new content for you to buy! Expect it sometime in the fall!" I think that would only help the situation. The more specific they are willing to get, the better but something vague like that would at least get people talking. And it would help people to feel more confident that the game will receive continued support -- maybe not new updates or features -- but new DLC packs for a while longer. Which would encourage more discussion, etc.

If you think about Frontier-driven discussion as far as DLC goes? They never acknowledge that something new is coming until about a week before it does. So there is a ~3 month drought between info. Which leaves people wondering, and unfortunately often assuming the worst about the future of the game.

Engaging with fans about what is coming down the pipeline would (a) help fans to feel more included in the process, (b) stimulate continued discussion online about the game and its future (including videos from content creators), (c) help players to plan out their zoos, and (d) because of A and B, I think it would help to strengthen the already strong community and bring even more people to the game.

Especially when it's a game that already has loads and loads of content available for it, acknowledging that there is even more coming down the pipeline could only help things!

I couldn't have said it better myself! Radio silence will only drum up feelings of resentment and disappointment, and unless there's No Man's Sky level development/upgrades to the game, radio silence just isn't worth it. Giving some kind of clue wouldn't take the wind out of the devs' sails, if anything there'd be a boost/flurry of discussion about the very things I bolded in the quote! The worst thing about these gaps of radio silence is that most of the time we just sit around twiddling our thumbs and going in circles "speculating" rather than actually doing anything meaningful planning-wise. And what else are we supposed to do?

 

[StoppableSan]

And, something I mentioned in the PZ Discord, ZT2's expansion packs weren't really that big as we like to think they were.

I bought all of them on release day back in the day, and I loved it all to bits, but oh boy looking back at it those packs really didn't age well. Yes, the packs had more animals. That's something we can give them, even though even back then the ZT2 animals were really low poly which means that even then they were a lot easier to make.

But looking at all the other stuff, we got variants, rides and a water upgrade in ES. We got rides and a slight herding upgrade in AA. We had shows and underwater mechanics in MM. And we had some dino related features in EA. Scenery and building wise these packs were also extremely limited, and surprisingly missed stuff from time to time (like speakers, benches) making themes incomplete.

But the most important part, all of these features were locked behind paywalls. Wanted variants for your animals? Tough luck, you need ES! Wanted underwater views? You'll have to buy MM or you don't have them. Wanted the herding behavior? You need AA! You wanted the upgraded zookeeper AI? EA was the thing to buy. Imagine if we have gotten all the features we have gotten in the base game and for free in the updates as paid content? People would have rioted for sure.


And we should probably remove the 35 EA animals from that list because the majority of the PZ players don't want extinct animals. So we have technically surpassed ZT2 already.

Don't get me wrong. ZT2 was a great game and at the time their expansion packs seemed really great and I enjoyed them a lot. I've played the game for 16 years. But looking back at it and taking away my rose tinted glasses I must admit that PZ has given us a hell of a lot more content with their base game and their DLCs than ZT2 ever has.

We absolutely surpassed ZT2 content-wise, and I agree that we basically get the same amount of animals in total every 3-5 months as we got expansion-wise for ZT2. I'm curious though, was there radio silence/thumb-twiddling in that community as well when the expansions were still coming out?

 

[AndyZoos]

I couldn't have said it better myself! Radio silence will only drum up feelings of resentment and disappointment, and unless there's No Man's Sky level development/upgrades to the game, radio silence just isn't worth it. Giving some kind of clue wouldn't take the wind out of the devs' sails, if anything there'd be a boost/flurry of discussion about the very things I bolded in the quote! The worst thing about these gaps of radio silence is that most of the time we just sit around twiddling our thumbs and going in circles "speculating" rather than actually doing anything meaningful planning-wise. And what else are we supposed to do?

To be fair, I don't think it's for us to say what will or will not "take the wind" out of the developer's sails. And I feel as though, when those comments were made, they were mostly WRT the leaks that had happened at the time. Which I kinda get. I'm sure it has a feeling to it like you're creating something very special, putting all of this heart into it... And you want that collective "gasp" when people finally see what animals are in the pack, what the architecture looks like, etc.

But the reason leaks are so enticing to people is specifically due to the lack of information we have. We almost never get "authorized" hints. If they were to drop some (and I think you had a really great suggestion as to how it could be done), it would generate conversation and more interest.

Right now, I have no doubt that the devs are working on incredible new features and a DLC. We have zero reliable info about what those new features might be. So as you said, people just kinda spin in circles guessing and speculating. And don't get me wrong... That's fun! But it could be even more inspired and targeted if they started to use those "Discussions" to inform the game! And maybe drop little hints in there. Vague, high-level stuff. That's how you inspire the imagination.

"We're thinking about adding new shops to the game. What sort of things would you like to decorate your restaurants and gift shops with? How would you feel about kiosks and food trucks?" Getting specific in that way would let people know what developers are thinking about and get more involved.

Another, more animal-specific example: "For those of you looking for more temperate woodland critters to add to your zoo, we hear you! We're looking into it. What animals would you want to see? What themes/regions would you like to see represented?"

After a few rounds of this, people would start to pick up on the hints and realize "Hey, there's hope for another DLC coming!" Just imagine the thrill you'd get if you mentioned something in that discussion and it made it in-game!

People are pretty invested in this game and in this community. Stuff like this can only heighten it! Sorry this was so long. I'm getting super hyped about it. Haha.

We absolutely surpassed ZT2 content-wise, and I agree that we basically get the same amount of animals in total every 3-5 months as we got expansion-wise for ZT2. I'm curious though, was there radio silence/thumb-twiddling in that community as well when the expansions were still coming out?

That's a bit of an apples/oranges situation because that was ~15 years ago! Haha. Social media wasn't quite what it was today in terms of a tool to promote and engage with fans... And the drum-up to a relatively major release/expansion pack like that was inevitably going to have press, reviews, etc. surrounding it. People knew those things were coming months in advance but that makes sense given that it was the sole release for the year. But it was relatively limited, as I recall it was mostly just Blue Fang releasing a press release and a bunch of sites saying "They're coming!"

Like I said, it was very much a different game in virtually every way. You needed to talk about it more in advance so people would get out of their chairs and go to the store to buy the expansion pack. Just a very different thing.

 

[Utahraptor104]

these recently extinct animals are as much part of the ecosystem as their still alive counterparts. The only thing they have going against them is people exterminated them, and not their contemporaries... Not yet, that is.

actually, no, the majority of the extinct animals, principally the so famous thylacine have they place in the ecosystem occupied by other animals, like the dingos in the thylacine case, so whats the point.

 

[Itzcoatl]

The biggest problem this is causing isn’t the people commenting here, but the people long gone because this stuff has pushed them away — possibly for good. I think you said this as well and as reasonably as possible.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Radio silence will only drum up feelings of resentment and disappointment, and unless there's No Man's Sky level development/upgrades to the game, radio silence just isn't worth it.

Sad that my first post on these forums is mainly to articulate my feelings with regards to the community engagement here, but these two quotes really sum it up.

I love playing PZ, I really do. As someone retraining later in life (ok, not that late!) to enter into zoology/ecology, it really scratches some itches for me, but the stumbling block I always face when I come back to play the game, or check how it's doing, is the sheer wall of silence from the CMs and Dev team.

Maybe I'm spoilt from other dev companies including players in the process and talking openly about plans, but Frontier really seem to have this habit of just saying absolute nothing, and it's only really earnt emnity from me. After the first week or so before big updates, it's nothing afterwards. And it really does cause me to resent their approach, as I find myself getting vaguely excited when the "time" approaches for a new DLC.. And then find myself just frustrated at the absolute silence all over again.

I want to be excited for this game, I want to follow along and be a part of a steady build up of excitement, but the way it stands now? It's miserable. Who knows!
JWE stopped recieving any support without a word, and that's the one reason I'm considering not getting JWE2 (despite a potentially unhealthy love for dinosaurs and the JP franchise..). Because, well:

Right now, I have no doubt that the devs are working on incredible new features and a DLC.

I don't have that surety. If they can leave JWE without a word as to whether support will continue, what's to stop PZ just being left with nothing but silence until the announcement of PZ2 a year and a half later?

 

[SotF]

I couldn't have said it better myself! Radio silence will only drum up feelings of resentment and disappointment, and unless there's No Man's Sky level development/upgrades to the game, radio silence just isn't worth it. Giving some kind of clue wouldn't take the wind out of the devs' sails, if anything there'd be a boost/flurry of discussion about the very things I bolded in the quote! The worst thing about these gaps of radio silence is that most of the time we just sit around twiddling our thumbs and going in circles "speculating" rather than actually doing anything meaningful planning-wise. And what else are we supposed to do?

Yeah, there were also things like with JWE where they didn't tell anyone that RTJP was the last dlc for it and people kept hoping for more while they could have just answered that it was the end of it.

 

[Birini]

I don't have that surety. If they can leave JWE without a word as to whether support will continue, what's to stop PZ just being left with nothing but silence until the announcement of JWE2 a year and a half later?

I agree. This feels very much like maintenance mode. An announcement would be very nice.

 

[Urufu1997]

Another, more animal-specific example: "For those of you looking for more temperate woodland critters to add to your zoo, we hear you! We're looking into it. What animals would you want to see? What themes/regions would you like to see represented?"

Yes!!! Exactly this please

 

[Spartan_Squat]

Well said Iben. Mostly of people who complain, basically have the pink glasses of nostalgia or didnt experience those days, and seeing with retrospective, basically all updates were behind a paywall like you said, some others were by accumaltives patches like the reworked biome brush from marine mania, that arrived in a patch near the release of zookeeper collection and marine mania days.

 

[AndyZoos]

I love playing PZ, I really do. As someone retraining later in life (ok, not that late!) to enter into zoology/ecology, it really scratches some itches for me, but the stumbling block I always face when I come back to play the game, or check how it's doing, is the sheer wall of silence from the CMs and Dev team.

Maybe I'm spoilt from other dev companies including players in the process and talking openly about plans, but Frontier really seem to have this habit of just saying absolute nothing, and it's only really earnt emnity from me. After the first week or so before big updates, it's nothing afterwards. And it really does cause me to resent their approach, as I find myself getting vaguely excited when the "time" approaches for a new DLC.. And then find myself just frustrated at the absolute silence all over again.

I want to be excited for this game, I want to follow along and be a part of a steady build up of excitement, but the way it stands now? It's miserable. Who knows!
JWE stopped recieving any support without a word, and that's the one reason I'm considering not getting JWE2 (despite a potentially unhealthy love for dinosaurs and the JP franchise..). Because, well:

I don't have that surety. If they can leave JWE without a word as to whether support will continue, what's to stop PZ just being left with nothing but silence until the announcement of PZ2 a year and a half later?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're in "maintenance mode" by any means, though it definitely feels like it. They have indicated that more DLC would be coming, and specifically highlighted that there would be two more in 2021 and at least one in 2022. But never in the forums; that was in some financial document or something. I'm blanking on what it was right now but yeah...

To a degree, I think what we are all saying is we feel frustrated by the lack of info because we like the dopamine rush we get when new news comes out. Haha. Another DLC will be coming, we're just frustrated by the wait. And I really do wish the devs would engage the fans more with conversation about what's coming up. Even if it's very, very high level it could lead to some very interesting things! And help to keep people engaged and looking forward to what's coming next. Instead of us throwing our hands in the air and going "Well, looks like we aren't really sure!"

I do disagree with your point around JWE, though. There's a huge difference between the two games. Planet Zoo is very much a "Frontier" game. They own the IP, it's aligned with the PlanCo brand, etc. It's their "thing." JWE is something they developed but they don't own the IP and the game itself (at least the first one) seemed to be heavily informed by what the film company might want. It kinda makes sense to stop support after a certain amount of time. There were also a LOT of features to be added in that game.

For Planet Zoo, I would argue that they could release DLC packs once every three months for the next 2-3 years and still have plenty of things to add for a sequel down the line! But as it stands, the game has enough features to keep gameplay interesting (in sandbox mode, at least) for a while so long as they keep adding new animal pieces, building sets, props, and foliage.