Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[VR jefranklin18]

If you are talking about Star Citizen/SQ42, Godus and the ED franchise respectively, well, then at least one of them has actually delivered a base game and several DLC and subjected itself to the scrutiny and critique of the market for those products. You may or may not like those (or want more) but they are out there fair and square fending for themselves. I suppose that was then a bit of a "find the odd one out"?

Well, with ED, yes the game has been released and received updates but as with Roberts promising 109 systems, AI indistinguishable from humans, etc. I do not see ED getting big game hunting, ship stealing or whatever.

I accept what we have with ED, and if we get more that's cool, but lets not kid ourselves that Roberts, Molyneux and Braben sold visions that are (or were in Molyneux's case) never likely to be fulfilled, so they could hit their respective funding targets

 

[Viajero]

Well, with ED, yes the game has been released and received updates but as with Roberts promising 109 systems, AI indistinguishable from humans, etc. I do not see ED getting big game hunting, ship stealing or whatever.

I accept what we have with ED, and if we get more that's cool, but lets not kid ourselves that Roberts, Molyneux and Braben sold visions that are (or were in Molyneux's case) never likely to be fulfilled, so they could hit their respective funding targets

Fair enough. One more difference there again though is that one of them will probably not make the market pay for content until he thinks said content is reasonably ready, feasible or close to release and then swiftly be subject to those reviews and scrutiny (with a few exceptions). The others will make you pay in advance for years without a shred of a guarantee for delivery. So, find the odd one out again?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Testing if a ground air battle is just from the air, with the A2 Bomber and Ares Inferno are ground target vulnerable?

No, turns out in such a battle the Anvil Ballista is a very effective ground to air defence vehicle.

Great Video. Those bomb explosions look awesome.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi6rwZSq4M0

It does of course require you to have a Ballista with you when you are on the ground.

Its like the Rexilla stuff. If you plan battles against other people, so you can determine what you will bring and where, you can probably make a nice arena style PvP battle with combined foot, vehicle, and air battles (although CIG seem to be struggling with a smaller mode based on this principle).

But in organic gameplay, how often is something like this actually going to happen?

"Right, me and my friends, we are off to raid a base. Let's take a Ballista just in case we are attacked"

After the raid

"Well, nobody attacked us, but a glad we had that ballista just in case."

OR

Inside the base, raiding it, one person outside keeping watch, just in case that 1 in a million chance of someone coming along to attack.

"Sir, better get out here, we have a problem! A bomber just flew over and took out all our ships along with the vehicles"

"Damn! We're boned!"

CIG are (slowly) giving the tools to make nice machinima. How useful some of those tools will be in organic gameplay though...?

Well, thankfully they have made the worlds and "verse" tiny, with only a few fixed points of interest on each, so anyone looking for action might be able to find it, even though there are only 50 people on a server.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well, with ED, yes the game has been released and received updates but as with Roberts promising 109 systems, AI indistinguishable from humans, etc. I do not see ED getting big game hunting, ship stealing or whatever.

I accept what we have with ED, and if we get more that's cool, but lets not kid ourselves that Roberts, Molyneux and Braben sold visions that are (or were in Molyneux's case) never likely to be fulfilled, so they could hit their respective funding targets

Well, in the old days they were pretty good. Wing Commander, Elite, Populous. Damn good games and they did deliver.

Seems to be a problem that many old rockstar developers jumped on the bandwagon of old game revival without really understanding how to deliver modern games or how to handle larger projects. Braben here is probably the best example of how to do it, but he was always more business oriented, while Bell was more the geek. Braben then built a somewhat successful company and grew it before attempting ED. While there is some stuff in the kickstarter vids where DB clearly got carried away with what he was saying, he did still manage to release a decent working product in just a couple of years. Not the BDSSE, but a decent game.

Roberts on the other hand has shown he doesn't know how to deliver on bigger projects. Freelancer he frittered away the money promising the moon and failing to deliver, and in the end it took Microsoft another 2 years after he was removed to ship a somewhat decent but much more limited product than CR had promised. And then, many years later he burst back onto the scene promising the BDSSE for just a few million and how he would develop it in just 2-3 years. The guy seriously didn't have a clue how to deliver on any of it. And he still has no idea how to deliver on the monster that he let it grow into. He still hasn't even delivered the much simpler single player game that was promised.

The difference is stark.

 

[Frank]

It's true that David Braben's marketing decisions can be brutal, and Peter Molyneux goes off on amazing flights of fancy

But this is the Star Citizen thread so we should be concentrating on Chris Roberts. If anyone has followed this thread they'll know of the weird things that have plagued its development over the past decade

For me this is the peak weirdness moment. I hear the Twilight Zone theme echoing thru my mind whenever I see it. Chris Roberts interviewing Sandi Gardener, and the fact that they're married isn't deemed important enough to mention, even in the passing

Source: https://youtu.be/IRE2BBQR4tc?t=1759

 

[Agony_Aunt]

It's true that David Braben's marketing decisions can be brutal, and Peter Molyneux goes off on amazing flights of fancy

But this is the Star Citizen thread so we should be concentrating on Chris Roberts. If anyone has followed this thread they'll know of the weird things that have plagued its development over the past decade

For me this is the peak weirdness moment. I hear the Twilight Zone theme echoing thru my mind whenever I see it. Chris Roberts interviewing Sandi Gardener, and the fact that they're married isn't deemed important enough to mention, even in the passing

Source: https://youtu.be/IRE2BBQR4tc?t=1759

"I've been working with Chris for a long time"

Yeah... and a little more than working with him.

"I bought myself a Cutlass package" - anyone else skeptical she actually paid for that? Or think she went to the appropriate department and said "Gimmie"?

"Thank you Miss Gardiner"

"Thank you Mr Roberts"

Why they were not upfront about the marriage is beyond me. Surely they knew it would come out eventually. Surely they would know it would look more shady this way than just nepotism, which they get accused of anyway.

 

[Mole HD]

It's true that David Braben's marketing decisions can be brutal, and Peter Molyneux goes off on amazing flights of fancy

But this is the Star Citizen thread so we should be concentrating on Chris Roberts. If anyone has followed this thread they'll know of the weird things that have plagued its development over the past decade

For me this is the peak weirdness moment. I hear the Twilight Zone theme echoing thru my mind whenever I see it. Chris Roberts interviewing Sandi Gardener, and the fact that they're married isn't deemed important enough to mention, even in the passing

Source: https://youtu.be/IRE2BBQR4tc?t=1759

To be fair...stepping into CR's shoes for a frightening moment... I wouldn't admit in public I was married to her either, certainly not if I thought my mum was watching

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To be fair...stepping into CR's shoes for a frightening moment... I wouldn't admit in public I was married to her either, certainly not if I thought my mum was watching

But she's such a lovely person.

And for no reason at all, i'll just leave this here.

 

[Mole HD]

But she's such a lovely person.

And for no reason at all, i'll just leave this here.

If I'd ever turned up at my mum's front door in my younger days with the likes of a 'Sandi' on my arm, she'd just have closed the door quietly in my face whilst shaking her head. Been there...got the T-shirt

 

[Frank]

And this is just one of the weird things that happened during the development

 

[Straha Yeagar]

Remember when John Walker from Rock Paper Shotgun interviewed Peter Molyneux?

First question...

RPS: Do you think that you're a pathological liar?

I wonder if Chris Roberts would agree to be interviewed by Mr Walker?

Chris: Pathological? No, Pathological lacks the Fidelity I am aiming for in lying.

 

[Ronzer]

Well, with ED, yes the game has been released and received updates but as with Roberts promising 109 systems, AI indistinguishable from humans, etc. I do not see ED getting big game hunting, ship stealing or whatever.

I accept what we have with ED, and if we get more that's cool, but lets not kid ourselves that Roberts, Molyneux and Braben sold visions that are (or were in Molyneux's case) never likely to be fulfilled, so they could hit their respective funding targets

In one of the earlier iterations of this thread, years ago, I seem to recall discussion about how in 2 or 3 years, most people would be moving to SC, even those against some it...as in, we all had an idea of how ED was going to be and eventually SC would surpass that just by their scope. Here we are 3 or 4 years later and I'd say that's not how things have turned out and in an update or 2 maybe we'll be talking of how long SC will be around for.

I find it more and more interesting that DB saying what he wants to see has been turned into gospel promises. He didnt promise that stuff, just that he'd like that. So it's possible ED wasnt even going to have legs, just a side want...but since they've added them, maybe they've opened up to the idea of other things. That'd be great. But gaming has changed a bit too. Where a few years ago, FPS shooters were a big thing, look at how good Farming Simulator 22 is doing compared to Battlefield 2042. Those are big numbers. So do I want big game hunting/shooting, or the ability to farm, or be a bus/taxi or space trucker? Fishing, yup. All of those, actually. Maybe DB should update his wants too.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Something something server meshing something something ITS ALPHA something something Tier 0.

I haven't looked at the comment replies to this, but can just guess what they look like.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

More realistic travel time in SC - Star Citizen Spectrum

I know that many of you will object to this, but I still think I have a valid point. Okay, let's look at most of the ships meant for (long) hauling. The C2, the Freelancer MAX, the Connie Taurus...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Instead we should be given FTL drives that would make it take days to traverse several systems. Yes, I mean real life days.

Insert notsureifserious.gif

Theatres of War - Star Citizen Spectrum

What happened to theatres of war? was it delayed? canceled? I put my blinders on and stepped back from SC for a long time. I am now in the "lets see what's new" part of my personal cycle with SC,...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Someone asking about ToW again...

Reply

It was sataballed.

2015 graphics will not look good 2025!! - Star Citizen Spectrum

I hope Chris is not watching! Not sure how Squadron42 will look when it comes out but I will bet all my money it will not come close to this. If Chris sees this Unreal 5 demo then there is no hope...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Ooof, people not happy with someone bringing up this. SC has to have the most fidelitious graphics ever! Can't go calling them 2015 graphics!

 

[metatheurgist]

In one of the earlier iterations of this thread, years ago, I seem to recall discussion about how in 2 or 3 years, most people would be moving to SC, even those against some it...as in, we all had an idea of how ED was going to be and eventually SC would surpass that just by their scope. Here we are 3 or 4 years later and I'd say that's not how things have turned out and in an update or 2 maybe we'll be talking of how long SC will be around for.

I find it more and more interesting that DB saying what he wants to see has been turned into gospel promises. He didnt promise that stuff, just that he'd like that. So it's possible ED wasnt even going to have legs, just a side want...but since they've added them, maybe they've opened up to the idea of other things. That'd be great. But gaming has changed a bit too. Where a few years ago, FPS shooters were a big thing, look at how good Farming Simulator 22 is doing compared to Battlefield 2042. Those are big numbers. So do I want big game hunting/shooting, or the ability to farm, or be a bus/taxi or space trucker? Fishing, yup. All of those, actually. Maybe DB should update his wants too.

Legs and planet landings was in the Kickstarter. Big game hunting and ship stealing/boarding were bluesky ideas he said he'd like to see eventually but never promised. ED has pretty much delivered what was promised in the KS now.

 

[VR Golgot]

I find it more and more interesting that DB saying what he wants to see has been turned into gospel promises. He didnt promise that stuff, just that he'd like that. So it's possible ED wasnt even going to have legs, just a side want...but since they've added them, maybe they've opened up to the idea of other things. That'd be great. But gaming has changed a bit too. Where a few years ago, FPS shooters were a big thing, look at how good Farming Simulator 22 is doing compared to Battlefield 2042. Those are big numbers. So do I want big game hunting/shooting, or the ability to farm, or be a bus/taxi or space trucker? Fishing, yup. All of those, actually. Maybe DB should update his wants too.

Legs and planet landings was in the Kickstarter. Big game hunting and ship stealing/boarding were bluesky ideas he said he'd like to see eventually but never promised. ED has pretty much delivered what was promised in the KS now.

No this is revisionism. Ship boarding was pre-sold as part of both the Kickstarter DLC overviews and the specific Lifetime Pass purchases:

Elite: Dangerous Kickstarter (2012)

Source: https://youtu.be/EM0Gcl7iUM8

They went into further detail in Newsletters of the time:

Newsletter 29: Lifetime Expansion Pass - to be withdrawn from sale

expansions that include significant new features and content will be charged for separately. For example, our current roadmap is to add (in no particular order):

• Landing/ driving / prospecting on airless rocky planets, moons & asteroids
• Walking around interiors and combative boarding of other ships
• Combat and other interactions with other players and AIs in the internal areas of star ports
• Accessing richly detailed planetary surfaces
• Availability of giant ‘executive control’ ships to players

Alpha and Premium Beta customers, and those who have already bought the £35 expansion pass alongside either Beta or the full game, will have access to all these features and updates for as long as we create them at no further cost.

Newsletter 32: 'To Launch, and Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass'

you will be able to experience the inside of starports and interact with other players and AI characters, and even board other people’s ships in space and take them by force

Just in Kickstarter materials alone there was plenty of forewarning of the direction of travel. (Not that Elite Legs having a 'Combat' strand should be that surprising really).

---

It's not like it's all some new development either. They've been trying to get both Legs, and Legs combat, into the Elite universe for over two decades...

On Waiting: Braben Has Wanted Legs in Elite Since 2001...

Just some fun quotes :) In the previous games the technology was not sufficient to give the player total freedom. In Elite, you couldn't fly over planet surfaces, but that was rectified in Frontier. In Frontier you couldn't get out of your ship, but we aim to rectify that in Elite 4. (Andrew...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Equally, the fact that 'detailed planetary surfaces' of later DLC were meant to involve cloudscapes, liquids and complex life etc was made clear at the time:

The language regarding atmospheric landings was way stronger than 'would be cool', and was used in LEP marketing materials and at the point of sale:

Newsletter 32: 'To Launch, and Beyond with the Lifetime Expansion Pass'

We believe that each stage will be incredible, and the result truly breathtaking. What you will see on the worlds will be a mix of procedurally generated content, particularly the landscapes, cloudscapes, compositions and so on, mixed with hand-crafted elements.

Planetary landing in Frontier


Concept piece for planetary landing in Elite: Dangerous

Elite Dangerous Expansion Pass Store Page - [IE the point of sale] (circa July 2014):

We intend to continue expanding the game both with new content and new features. A good example of this is planetary landings. We have an ambitious goal for landings to include new gameplay and a rich variety of worlds to explore. To achieve our goal we want the planets to come to life.

Newsletter 29: Lifetime Expansion Pass - to be withdrawn from sale

For example, our current roadmap is to add (in no particular order):

• Landing/ driving / prospecting on airless rocky planets, moons & asteroids [DONE]
• Walking around interiors and combative boarding of other ships
• Combat and other interactions with other players and AIs in the internal areas of star ports [DONE]
• Accessing richly detailed planetary surfaces

Elite Dangerous Development Plan

Yes we're going to have landing on planets but there is a lot of detail that's written on that that's really important. So, for example, if you were to then have a follow-up question what will be there when you land on the planet, that's what's been concerning us a lot. If you imagine every planet when you get down to the surface is just a differently coloured how it map that would be very, very disappointing, even with lovely atmospheric effects. What I want to see down on the planet is is interesting things, city scapes, even animals, life, trees, being a big game hunter. All of the things that we've been very, very excited about but for a long time we want to be able to realize, and the amount of work to create those things is so huge we want to do it properly.

Etc etc.


FDev have subsequently re-iterated their intention to tackle them:

Yes. We have ongoing work on planets, including atmospheres, planetary life, walking about and lots of other very exciting things for the future. ~ AMA - 26th May 2016

...atmospheric landings remains something we are still working towards and the whole studio, including David, is very keen to implement. We'd like to be able to give you an idea of the rough timeframe for it, but unfortunately that’s not possible at the moment - we don’t want to make potentially empty promises to you. June 2017

NB:

The Lave Radio interview with Braben

Which covered design thoughts + some ongoing skunkwork on:

• Inhabited atmospheric worlds
• Gas giant gameplay
• Complex animal life

Excerpt:

Source: https://youtu.be/ypIq3fg9nMM


---

OP is totally within their rights to both expect FDev to attempt them, and for them to be the focus of a paid expansion, and so significant in nature.

Ship stealing and big game hunting were cast as possibilities within that, not certainties, sure. But the big beats were pre-sold as things that were coming.

What distinguishes ED from SC on these fronts, and is a comparative saving grace, is that:

They only pre-sold these elements on a few occasions, gave no time frame for delivery, didn't pitch for the same number of 'never been done before' moonshot combinations, and kept the details vague enough to give themselves developmental flexibility. So there's a greater likelihood that they can deliver on those big beats.

But it's only really a saving grace when cast against SC . Taken on its own merits, these are still undelivered, pre-sold, features, which have been dangled as carrots to make the existing game more enticing etc.

 

[Factabulous]

No this is revisionism. Ship boarding was pre-sold as part of both the Kickstarter DLC overviews and the specific Lifetime Pass purchases:



Equally, the fact that 'detailed planetary surfaces' of later DLC were meant to involve cloudscapes, liquids and complex life etc was made clear at the time:



Ship stealing and big game hunting were cast as possibilities within that, not certainties, sure. But the big beats were pre-sold as things that were coming.

What distinguishes ED from SC on these fronts, and is a comparative saving grace, is that:

They only pre-sold these elements on a few occasions, gave no time frame for delivery, didn't pitch for the same number of 'never been done before' moonshot combinations, and kept the details vague enough to give themselves developmental flexibility. So there's a greater likelihood that they can deliver on those big beats.

But it's only really a saving grace when cast against SC . Taken on its own, these are still undelivered, pre-sold, features, which have been dangled as carrots to making the existing game more enticing etc.

Top tip : "we would like" is different to "you are pledging to get". Revisionism indeed

Anyway - I know you won't agree, as this is a common argument, so won't be replying to your (usual) refutation

More SC chat!

 

[VR Golgot]

Top tip : "we would like" is different to "you are pledging to get". Revisionism indeed

Anyway - I know you won't agree, as this is a common argument, so won't be replying to your (usual) refutation

More SC chat!

"We will" used at the point of sale for pre-orders is very different from "we would like". You are wrong on this. No biggie.

Excusing the late delivery of grandiose pre-orders in this fashion is incredibly SC though. So that's on topic at least

 

[metatheurgist]

Since this is the SC thread, it's appropriate to employ sophistry.

The text states "We also want to add leaving the ships so you can explore space stations or board enemy vessels or just to look around own your own." The logical OR operator requires only one of the states to be true for the entire condition to be true.

The statements are:

We also want to add leaving the ships so you can explore space stations
board enemy vessels
just to look around own your own

The first is clearly true and so is the last so the condition is met. All promises are thus full-filled. Eat your heart out Chris "What is release anyway" Roberts.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

More SC chat!

Agreed. We can sit here all day saying ED good/bad, but then all we are doing is doing what some SC backers do, which is compare SC to other games in order to make SC look better. If a game can't stand on its own merits, without comparing with something subjectively or objectively worse, then its not a very good situation.

Its one of my favourite things to do when i get one of the SC faithful start ranting about how bad ED is and how SC is better. I'll say, ok, let's agree ED is those worst game in the world, so you're saying SC is somewhat better than the worst game in the world. That seems to befuddle them because they can't understand how an ED player can say something like that.

Had one on YouTube recently, who in relation to me having a small disagreement with someone over the speed of SC's development went full on mental against me screaming ED fanboy and throwing out insults. After a little back and forth finally managed to get him to actually offer some points for discussion rather than insults. He came out with questions about ED (instead of SC which was being discussed), one of which was about the bad launch of Odyssey. I agreed with him that the launch of Odyssey was terrible.

That was 2 days ago... i think he's still trying to process how to respond to that