Star Citizen Thread v6
- Thread starter Brett C
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So you do not load the entire ship but stream the data at need.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Will be loaded in "meshes" you dummy. Seamlessly and fidelitiously.
Ah yes I forgot the server meshes, with the russian doll embedded physics grids, each room hosting 500 players and working doors.
It depends actually.
- Kickstarter sales are not preorders, merely rewards IF the game succeeds and that is a risk investment, risk investment means that there are no guarantees of getting back your money.
- Digital sales AFTER kickstarter are preorders depending on laws in individual countries, especially if it was BEFORE VAT was added since that can muddle things.
Which 3.0 though?
The 3.0 that the streamers and attendees got to play during the week or the 3.0/1 that was on display during the final presentation.
I still don't believe there was ever a slide shown that detailed exactly what gameplay features would make it into 3.0. There was a nice slide that showed how the client would now perform delta patching and some other under the hood stuff but nothing about the feature set of the game. I've never seen an up and coming game release on Steam that ever listed any of that stuff in a bullet point feature list to attract buyers. In 2017 this should be expected, not a boast.
My own modest requirements for 3.0 were for me to be able to fly a ship around a system, pick a planet/moon, fly to it, pick a landing spot and decend to the surface and then get out and drive around on that planet/moon in any direction I chose without any hand holding, guidance or invisible walls to bar my way.
What I actually saw was disheartening enough for me to abandon any interest I had in 3.0 as no matter what they release now it will be a disappointment. Maybe 4.0 will be the new 3.0? I am so glad I have no money in this project.
You are ascribing terms here that are totally inappropriate.
Star citizen backers are not investors. They are customers.
Investors in Star Citizen would be people who put up funding in expectation of a financial return, and in this case it is totally the company's responsibility to keep investors informed and maintain a legally mandated level of transparency.
However CIG are not a publicly traded company so they don't need to abide by these rules, and they can, and do treat their customers like a bunch of mugs.
With all that we know about SC then I suppose I would have to agree with you that the burden of common sense lays with the customers.
Given there's 15 Engineering positions open at CIG, of which 7 are senior ones, even if they had detailed features set, implementation may still be far from anything else than pre-pre-alpha
Senior Tools Programmer
Senior Game/Animation Programmer
Senior Engine Programmer
Senior Game/AI Programmer
Senior Game Programmer
Physics Programmer
Gameplay Engineer, Service & Backend
UI Programmer
Gameplay Programmer
Animation Programmer
Senior Graphics Programmer
Tools Programmer
Network Programmer
Senior Audio Programmer
Junior Audio Programmer
Funny: nothing's needed for Marketing and Narrative depts
Are we too harsh on CIG? https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6wpxxd/star_citizen_development_are_we_too_harsh/
Game is running on a 2011 engine made for 7th generation consoles. The framerate is limited by cloud server performance and it will stay this way. It can't make use of more than 3 CPU cores nor of more than 8 GB RAM.
Polls where anyone could vote in multiple times BTW, not only backers. There is a reason, why the RSI forum has over one million accounts now.
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As you said:
Which means the legality if something is a sold product seems to depend if VAT was applied.
I ll bite
1. because its non-existing. With all the new features coming up and technological "break-throughs" discovered by CiG they would be forced to re-write the single player campaign every few months because the foundation and the possibilities change so often. So IF it exists I d say its nothing more then a skeleton without any meaty pieces attached to it. Mo-cap will be missing completely, if they had that integrated a lot of it would ve trickled down to the PU already. As CR always touts (repeated by the white knights) how closely connected PU and SQ42 are I think we can take a good hard look at the current PU and determine from that how far along SQ42 is. Being unable to show anything because of "spoilers" makes me think that they either A) have such a tiny campaign that a single 5 second snippet would probably reveal 50% of its content or B) it simply doesnt exist the PAARP speech aside.
2. SQ42 is all about space ships and your career in the navy which focuses again around ships and space warfare (think Top Gun in space). I am sure space legs and FPS elements can be integrated as well but it will be an addition at best and never the focus. Sadly thats exactly what seems to the current Magnus Opus tho. Everything is about walking, running, doing FPS things while the ship aspects (beside visuals) is pretty much ignored. If I imagine CiG releasing a full campaign with current dogfight mechanics SQ42 will be one of the biggest flops in history. As the 2017 Gamescom showed CiG will showcase and present half-finished stuff and even content that was never asked for in order to create an appearance. Do you really think that if SQ42 would be finished or mostly done CiG would just sit on it and not use it to leech more $$$ off the gullies?
3. again I believe SQ42 is pretty much non-existent so releasing a "simple" cinematic single player campaign in the spirit of Wing Commander would mean buckle down and start from pretty much zero. By now they dont have the manpower nor the financial means to undertake such a project and come out with anything that would even raise an eyebrow. I guess they sat on their dream too long and too careless expanding and bloating without working on any of the basics and now the hollow mountain starts to crumble and all they can do is to walk lightly in order to avoid a landslide. Everything about Star Citizen screams "maintenance mode" to me. We follow their "progress" for months with in-editor snippets of good-looking fragments but none of it ever makes it into the PU and even now....a full year after 2016 most of the things shown in 2016 are missing. I consider the 2017 presentation "smoke & mirror" until it makes an appearance on the PU. Chris Roberts proves time and time again that he is disconnected from reality and still lives in 1990 regarding technological capabilities. All the surrounding factors make the existence of SQ42 highly improbable.
We ll never hear the "real" story about SQ42 for sure but I hope that we ll get an insight into all the assets and work completed on this game and then realize that it was all an illusion from the start and never had a chance to take off.
Again, this is not how the real life works. You reserve this attitude for a childish dream of yours, yourself or maybe next of kin (children most likely, people tend to be less forgiving with their partners). You will always find it in yourself to forgive yourself or strike a compromise to keep on going. If this behavior is projectd on outside factors then something is seriously wrong. We are not talking about a child-time teddybear or your own toddler kid. This is a grown man with a company behind him taking money for promises without delivering anything in return. At this point the ultra/white knight behavior borders on a clinical condition. Even if you loan money to your best friend you ll do it a couple of times at best. But if you never see anything of it back and your friend keeps asking for more you will eventually change your relationship or make a hard cut.
Not with CiG which is extremely strange/funny. Instead of asking for results or trying to get value in return for your financial investment (notadonation) people try to avoid the subject at best they can instead bringing forth this "when its ready" crap. Tiny little things which are non-existent at this point are rewarded with 400$ purchases and a single word (for example "soon") is worth millions to the fans if the tracker can be trusted. Take a good hard look around yourself. Check every other released game and observe the complaints and critiques about the smallest things. And this goes for private people mostly. If you deal with business partners things become much more strict and harsh. Fail a deadline and you are looking at penalties, keep doing so and your contract gets adjusted until your own profit dwindles toward zero or puts you in debt. A "deal" entails conditions and responsibilities which need to be met else there will be consequences. Our world doesnt work on the principle of "when its ready". Chris Roberts could maintain that statement if he would develop Star Citizen on his own dime like....I dont know.....Derek Smart does with his games. But he does it with other peoples money and those people expect a return value which is pretty non-existent at this point. Kickstarter never was a donation. It was a token of trust at best. People who pledged expected something and I m pretty sure none of them was thinking "I ll pledge 2000$ and this game will be released when its done". No, Chris Roberts advertised proficiency he doesnt possess and claimed awards he never accomplished (Wing Commander) to gain the trust of people (me included) and projected a timeline which was very agreeable to all of us.
I believe the initial influx of money was used to purchase good looking videos and fluff stuff in order to make people part with yet more money making it the beginning of a scam. Once people were involved it was rather easy to look past delays and "problems" but nothing really comes forth expect yet another excuse or another delay or another broken promise. At some point a mature adult will take a good hard look at his business relation and make a call. Some will have a bigger financial pool to draw from so even 30.000 might not hurt all that much (hard to believe but I guess its possible, lots of the super rich have kids you know). But please dont try to sell this condition or apathy of yours as "take as much time as you need, its ready when its ready". I could ve been a backer as well if I didnt wait a few more months to see how it evolves and if I were whoever says this doesnt speak for me. Also I wouldnt be a smarty or goon or hater, I would simply be a disappointed backer whos expectations were not met. If other people are so shallow and easy to please....good for them, just dont try to talk me down because I expect actual value for my hard-earned money. And telling me to "get lost" or "get a refund" will not save the project either. It will simply reduce the pool of people to draw money from. Apart from the project turning into an echo chamber eventually.
But thank god people dont simply turn their back and walk away. I am not invested in Star Citizen and yet I keep speaking up. Freedom of speech and all that you know. Dont be mad at me if the results from CiG are laughable and reek of extortion and scam. Dont stalk me because I dare to point out obvious flaws and mistakes and even lies. Why would you hate on the messenger and not the one who actually creates the message?
There are countless people promising the world or the sky and often enough there are people who so desperately want that vision to become true that they will donate or give money to it. Most of these scams are short-lived tho because people stop caring if nothing ever comes to fruitation. A well managed scam lives from a carrot on a stick and this is something Chris Roberts and his family are pretty proficient in sad as it is. We are basically talking about extortion by now. CR lost my trust back in 2014 and everything he has done since then only confirms my initial impression. I am always amazed how people are willing and able to twist their own perception and willfully ignore obvious flaws and hints in order to "keep the dream alive". Due to the short attention span of todays population the frequent release of ATVs is an absolute MUST to keep the money-train going.
You always have to wake up eventually tho. A dream is just that, a dream and eventually even this one will come to an end.
I would give that scenario a 80%+ probability. Personal estimate of course. If anybody thinks its wrong and has an impression of success regarding SQ42 feel free to provide examples and facts which might support your opinion.
Star Citizen by now might as well be a still born project with no hope of revitalization. We have a thesis of a pool of roughly 2000 heavily invested people, called "whales" and I dont doubt that number really. Such a financial commitment would result in lots of community interaction (to keep up the hype and continue spreading the dream) and while the shills, ultras and white knights are still numerous on various comment sections and forums its nowhere as bad as it was in the first 2 years where you risked a tidal wave of crap beating you into the ground whenever you dared to show any sign of doubt. Things have changed and I m sure its because the pool of fanatics has become smaller over time. With a smaller pool of people to draw money from CiGs options have become less and I think thats what we see in the past 2 years or so. Videos have become less impressive and much shorter, its often in-editor snippets now instead of full-blown propaganda videos and the presentations have also lost a lot of glimmer and shine. I can credit CiG with a "good looking video" in 2017 but that doesnt change the fact that everything feels half-baked, unfinished and improvised. Yes, its an alpha, I never forgot that you know. Star Citizen reminds me in every moment that its "at best" an alpha and nothing more. But I am one of the people who remember what the original kickstarter amount was and I still see the list of stretch goals linked to monetary values before my eyes. CiG has been given time enough and also more then enough goodwill to materialize anything of those things and you know what.....I am still waiting for anything that will "blow my mind". The absolute BEST thing from Star Citizen so far for me was the original Kickstarter Trailer. We dont have that and if I take a look at the current game I see a game that doesnt resemble what was promised back then.
Anyway, if this thesis is true (less people who give money resulting in less impressive stuff coming from CiG) then we are talking about a downward spiral which will eventually result in a collapse. How long this will take depends on the remaining people who continue giving money for nothing in return. But if the current status is upheld and this is the best CiG can manage with the money from the die-hard fans who continue to believe then things will not improve. They will rather turn worse and every single backer going for a refund really hurts now further reducing CiGs movement.
CiG does NOT have all the time they need to make this work. They have a window and as far as I can tell that window is closing. And if the game finally dies it wont be because of the "haters" or "Derek Smart" its because Chris Roberts was unable to deliver what he promised. Simple truth folks.
People talk about the "future" of Star Citizen. About how content and quality needs to be "sufficient" in order to allow purchases and sales to reach a wider audience. This makes me LOL really. A final release resembling a functional game equals a wonder at the moment and people talk about as if thats a given.
As for the "future of crowdfunding" I dont really think a reveal of the scam that Star Citizen is or its collapse will "hurt" crowdfunding in general. It will make people more aware of the risks for sure (and only for those who followed the project really, so many people never heard about SC, a failure will not affect them or their decisions regarding crowdfunding). There are a few individuals who cannot be helped (I m talking about the remaining whales who keep giving hundreds each month) but the majority of people evaluates risk versus reward when backing a project. That wont change. Maybe people will look more into the background of the project managers. If that would happen with Chris Roberts back in 2012 Star Citizen probably wouldnt have blown past the 65 million so easily resulting in the mess we now have.
I believe that poll to be as bogus as the fundtracker of number of backers. It was used as a justification for a decision made by Chris Roberts. Neither were a sufficiant number of backers informed nor asked in order to justify turning the whole project around. The poll was for whoever managed to stumble across is in the time window it was up. I would ve expected emails to everybody but that never happened because then CRoberts couldnt control the outcome.
Hmmm... If I were Roberts, I'd:
1. Release 3.0 and declare it to be the MVP; by so doing putting a stop to this charade;
2. Google "list of countries that don't have an extradition treaty in place with either the United States or the United Kingdom" and go to one of them for a "holiday"; and
3. Tell the SC-friendly media that the collapse was due to the evil game publishers plotting behind the scenes to bring CIG down.
1. While I m sure thats exactly his plan he cannot do it because 3.0 doesnt exist to an extent that would allow him such a move. We only saw fragments of 3.0 and the presentation he gave himself wasnt 3.0 but "future patches" so of all the things 3.0 promised to deliver only a couple are checked.
2. I m sure their "exit strategy" is finetuned and maintained as we speak and discuss this trainwreck.
3. the whales and fanatics already do this and try to drive away anybody who isnt all-in. The problem is that they are unable to shut up skeptics and criticism but those things never were responsible for a projetcs failure.
No doubt but the simple and ugly truth is that all those shiny visuals dont make a game and the creator of those videos obviously thinks exactly the same way putting more focus and weight on shiny pictures then a solid foundation. Star Citizen reminds me of a delicate crystal statue. Its looks beautiful but touch it and it falls apart. Its meant to be watched, not played with. Wouldnt that be a shame for Star Citizen?
I think you are mixing up what KIND of investor I mean.
In a KICKSTARTER anyone putting money in it is a RISK Investor. Not a regular investor in an already established company, there is a difference.
A risk investment means you CAN loose every penny put into the project, and that is what a kickstarter is.
As for CIG and their sales AFTER the kickstarter is basically a risk investment in a startup company and even if they sell a future product that does not exist yet and you can call yourself a customer does NOT change the fact that it IS a risk investment.
https://www.seedinvest.com/academy/risks-of-investing-in-startups
No, we are too everything on CIG. People should have moved on yoga for all things. We are way beyond being angry, harsh or anything really.
No, Kickstarter backers, and later pledgers for CIG project aren't investors in any shape or form. They don't get any protections, neither they can sue Chris and CIG for their investments.
They are either just giving money away (as for charity), or they are customers (well, some of CIG backers really are). First have zero protection, second ones have somewhat protections, but limited ones.
Attributed top left corner of each ship. I bought both
Pics, or it didn't happen.
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Oh, the irony...
Not really.
The great failing of CIG is not the pushed release dates but rather the silence and poor communication when things go BAD, and only showing me the beautiful flowers does not really show me how well they tend their garden.
After looking at the timeline https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...time-of-games-and-sc-development-time-/418335
it's pretty clear that actual, REAL proper game development did not really spark until the end of 2013.
So with that in mind their progress right now is not unreasonable. They have essentially been growing a LOT and production ramped up.
that said, the 2016 commercial and release and subsequent SILENCE about why 3.0 basically has taken a year longer is the more damning part combined with the (also) complete silence about the actual status of SQ42, and in that I mean shown proof of progress FROM SQ42 game and not added improved features for 3.0.
- Illfonic debacle was somewhat explained
- The loss of Behavior and how their departure impact the workflow was more puzzled together than fully explained
- And the lack of explanation to why they thought "a" version of 3.0 might be done by end of 2016
- And how the old 3.0 became the new 3.0...
So they are good at showing "stuff" but i would be MORE comfortable with a company that also explain any larger issues that holds up the project. Silence is never a good indicator.
I do believe that SQ42 will be done, but I would like to know what the blockers are and what progress they have made and how much is shared between SC/SQ42.
So, REAL development from 2014 to today is basically 3 years and the end of 2012 was kickstarter while 2013 was more company building to handle it all.
Realistic release date? 2018 for SQ42 would not be unreasonable IF they get 4.0 out in that time.
AFAIK risk investors do not get any protection either if they want to back a startup company that want to sell a new product so the comparison fits.
I would imagine the blockers to be internal strategic decisions rather than particular technical ones. Out of the two games which is more likely to succeed? Or rather, which one requires the least resources. I thnk most would assumed this to be SQ42. Which game go people think is what CR wants to be released more than anything else? For me it would be his cinematic SC MMO.
SQ42 will likely never be released until SC gets out of the way to allow for development to continue, hopefully to completion.
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