The most Fundamental Flaw of Elite - And How to Fix It

Oh, actually, just a personal one - I would love to see some survival game type missions. We've got all of these mods for long range exploration and things like silent running - imagine missions where you have to carefully manage systems, heat levels, repairs etc, maybe to get some hunk of junk full of sensitive data across 10,000LY for some superpower black ops outfit without getting seen, blown away or breaking down.

I desperately wish I could think of some way to simulate flying a "junker" like the Falcon (at least, as its talked about) or Serenity (You know, "bits falling off my ship" and all that) without it just becoming an annoying series of menus, clicks and whirs. In all honesty, it would be cool if ships had some running costs and wear and tear...in a game where you can walk down the corridor and make the repairs.

But so long as repairs are just a menu option and a sound effect, I think thats headed for more tedium than enjoyment.

Still though, I like the core of your idea: Fly this ship across boundaries, and dont get scanned. Kind of a non combat black ops gig. I think the game would need work with AI and stealth mechanics - blatantly psychic AI ships would ruin this mission - but I think it would be a cool addition.
 
Holy jumping doublesmoked catfish on a cedar plank with a side of whiskey, BC.

Stellar post; no pun intended, no snark implied. I rescind my snipe in a previous thread about wishing you away because I would have missed this thread; this is brilliant stuff and should be sent off to the devs. You've highlighted a very interesting hole in the game development and then filled it with more game for everyone. I'm honestly glad I read this post, it's just good.
 
Good thread. And I wholeheartedly agree.

I sometimes feel that ED is too large in areas it should be smaller and too small in areas that it should be larger and your point about normal vs SC flight nails it.
 
Holy jumping doublesmoked catfish on a cedar plank with a side of whiskey, BC.

Stellar post; no pun intended, no snark implied. I rescind my snipe in a previous thread about wishing you away because I would have missed this thread; this is brilliant stuff and should be sent off to the devs. You've highlighted a very interesting hole in the game development and then filled it with more game for everyone. I'm honestly glad I read this post, it's just good.

Good thread. And I wholeheartedly agree.

I sometimes feel that ED is too large in areas it should be smaller and too small in areas that it should be larger and your point about normal vs SC flight nails it.

Thanks, folks. Seriously.

Took some time away. Not just from Elite, from gmaing. It was good for me. I needed to reassess why i play games, and which games I really like, versus those I just cling to out of habit. It did me some good.

Turns out, I quite like sandbox game play. So long as its interactive and enjoyable. And I am just trying to find more ways to increase the incredibly satisfying interaction Elite offers, in ways everyone can appreciate.

Because thats the crux of my sudden realization: Elite is NOT lacking in satisfying interaction. Its simply lacking in opportunities to utilize that satisfying interaction. And thats actually fairly easy to fix, I think.
 
Totally agree, and interesting ideas.
I also came to ED to fly spaceships, and that's why PvP interests me so much. Other than that, only canyons and asteroid field seem appealing.
 
Totally agree, and interesting ideas.
I also came to ED to fly spaceships, and that's why PvP interests me so much. Other than that, only canyons and asteroid field seem appealing.

I had my first fly by of a mega ship tonight. Pretty cool for the sense of scale.

Elite needs more places that offer that sense of scale: ruined outposts. Megaship wreckage. Asteroid and ring bases and pirate hideouts. Procedural cities on planets.

We need more places to fly, that give us a sense of size and scale. Its a really nice touch in space games.
 
Thanks, folks. Seriously.

Took some time away. Not just from Elite, from gmaing.

Clarity of vision is a hard thing to get whilst buried up to your neck. Can relate. ;)

I too have recently reduced my hour count down in Elite, not to the point of stopping, but close to it. I've also spent a bit of time in a pretty different title, with a different development angle and intent. It's certainly provided food for thought and a comparative element.

And yes, there's a notion that as long as there are endless tasks, clearly it will create satisfying interaction, which now ignores that the gaps between those interactive elements, span far more than the interactive elements themselves. More time is spent between the elements, not in them.

Concur, 100%. The thing is? Look at the PP changes and next week's boom. These are not really forum ideas, per-se (that's become fairly evident I think!). They're broader consideration of experience over simple mechanics and the correctness of things, based on the broader perspective of a much larger audience; ie, the rest of the community.

There is a sign Frontier might be looking and listening in that direction. That would be a cracking good start.
 
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I also love flying. What I realized is that space game try to copy WWII combat flight. So, now I just play WWII combat flight simulators. Bombing missions, escort missions, and dogfights.

In WWII dogfights it doesn't take that many hits to take down a plane. In Elite it takes way too many hits to shoot down an enemy. Also for flight to really be meaningful you need a limit that you as a pilot are constantly pushing. Like a race car driver driving at the limit of his car's tire traction. Pilots fly at the limit of their plane's ability. If they added more G-force limits and the possibility of overheating engines. Variables that you have to balance while flying.

If you enjoy flying try flying with FA off exclusively.

Bounty hunting is HazRes and sometimes combat zone fights is all I want to focus on now.
 
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Precisely why I don't use a docking computer too.

Taking off and landing are some of the most 'flying a spaceship' things you can do in this game. Especially at planetary ports / outposts / asteroid / engineer bases etc. where it can sometimes take a little effort.

Agree with the OP though. More 'gameplay' reasons to fly our ships in normal space would be great.
 
Some good ideas. Planetary NPC dogfights and strafe/bombing runs would be fun - barreling through canyons taking out targets with some iEagles on your tailpipe, maybe give the SLF something more to do too.

Convoy Attack? 'Blah Faction are transporting Blergh to a nearby base, please destroy the vehicles before they reach their destination'.
You'd need to find the start station (same as surface scan mission) then search toward the destination.
Presumably SRVs would be there to defend the convoy (plus skimmers? fighters? ships?)
 
Greetings all. I am going to keep this polite and constructive, and as brief as is possible in order to make my point. So bear with me:

I came to Elite to fly spaceships. Fly spaceships. Not outfit them. Not customize them. Not paint them. Not use them to generate screen shots. To FLY them. (Which is not to say those other things should not exist, but I will get to that). And when I am allowed to actually FLY my ship, Elite is one of the finest, most refined experiences in modern gaming - I mean that.

Unfortunately, time spent actually FLYING a ship in Elite is...lacking. In fact, outside of combat, its almost non-existent. Pressing J and waiting is not flying. Staring at a bright orange blob and watching my fuel ticket back up is not flying. Pointing my ship in a single direction and staring at a second screen is not flying. However you try and dress these activities up, they are WAITING, not FLYING. And this game has far too much waiting and far too little flying - to the point where Elite has become a game about dressing up and customizing a ship, wherein you occasionally get to fly one, as opposed to a game about flying a ship you occasionally tinker with.

Lets examine that statement again, on its own: Elite has become a game about dressing up and customizing a ship, wherein you occasionally get to fly one, as opposed to a game about flying a ship you occasionally tinker with.

So how does FDEV fix this fundamental flaw? (Its actually easier than you think). Simple: Create far more opportunities for ACTUALLY FLYING your ships.

When I first came to Elite, I imagined delivery missions where you dropped from Cruise, and flew in real time deep into Asteroid fields and planetary rings, navigating hazards and scanning for pirates in order to make deliveries to bases in logical locations. Passenger missions where you ferry passengers from stations to planets and other special destinations - rendezvous with ships in flight and dock up for passenger exchange. Drop passengers at unique, procedural planetary spaceports in cities, navigating tall buildings and human structures as you launch or land. I imagined, in short...ACTUALLY FLYING SHIPS.

Instead, I got 'Press J and Wait' and 'Stare forward and wait.'

Its my opinion that FDEV simply need to offer more opportunities for us to FLY ships. This game shines in Normal Space, so lets spend more time there, doing things like:

-Flying deep into asteroid fields, to scientific bases, pirate outposts and other locations to scout, drop cargo and passengers and salvage destroyed bases.

-Salvaging large ships and destroyed outposts and stations. This means actually navigating ruins in space, which offers place for pirates to hide, as well as offers a sense of scale. Ships in Elite are impressively large...but then, so are stations. Having us fly among debris while we salvage large structures offers a sense of scale this game often lacks.

-Flying among fleets of ships: We could ferry ammo, fuel, passengers, etc between ships in major fleets. These fleets would logically be spread out over several thousand kilometers to maximize Capital Ship Scanner range.

-Contractual hauling (For players and NPC's): They mine, we haul. Which means flying in Normal, scooping their take and then getting out of Mass Lock and into Jump range. This also creates a reason to interact with players outside of combat. And contracts could be binding, so they cannot be broken or the goods stolen...possibly with the exception of contracts made in Anarchy, but probably not.

-Passenger missions to planets: Why is passengers never seem to want a drop off on planetary bases? Moreover, why are those bases never located among other tall structures that require navigation and avoidance? Again, a sense of scale.

-Patrol missions: System security and Naval Factions often drop into RES zones. So let us take patrol missions that require us to visit numerous RES sites and other points of interest within systems. We fly there, scout the areas. Scan ships present. Optionally, engage hostiles. Even have the option to call for backup while on these missions. Another reason to fly into places which require lots of normal space flight - especially if the missions require us to scan several points within a RES, so long as these points are a reasonable distance apart.

Once we have tons of reasons to spend time in Normal space that use existing systems, we can add new ones:

-Gas Giant scans. Get into high orbit, drop to normal. Scoop using your fuel scoop and gather gases for analysis.

-Planetary and asteroid mining: Land your ships on rocks and mine from your ship. Requires navigation to mining hot spots revealed by Surface Scans.

-Supply runs: Take supplies to capital ships, temporary military and scientific outposts, etc...navigate to several docking locations in these outposts, which are campus like installations of several buildings all requiring supplies.

-Anomaly Investigation: Drop into normal space and orbit comets, scan debris, examine possible wormholes and strange signals...the list goes on.


Next, we expand actual flight in Supercruise by adding optimal routes, slingshotting, solar flares and winds, etc. The HUD would map an optimal route, which you could stick to in order to GREATLY increase SC Acceleration and reduce drag and deceleration issues. Avoidance of solar flares might be required, or as they taper off later into a system they might even offer some fuel scooping in open space, or even a slight speed boost temporarily. Sling shot paths could also exist; hit the sweet spots for very rapid, skill based flight through star systems, but at risk of FSD damage or getting caught in gravity wells.

Simply put, Elite needs more time spent actually FLYING the ships. I would wager that, if you give this to players, you want need to "hook" them with gimmicks like RNG grind and upgrade progression. The sheer number of varied opportunities to fly unique spaceships in simulated situations would offer its own, much healthier hook.

Just my final humble final suggestion for some things I would like to see in this game.

I like pretty much all those ideas even though I do mostly fly and tinker from time to time. But still very good. More reasons to fly your ship is good in my view.
 
I never thought I'd see the day when I'd agree with something that Blackcompany posted. Great post and very imaginative, I've love to see a lot of those ideas implemented. Duly repped.
 
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Greetings all. I am going to keep this polite and constructive, and as brief as is possible in order to make my point. So bear with me:

I came to Elite to fly spaceships. Fly spaceships. Not outfit them. Not customize them. Not paint them. Not use them to generate screen shots. To FLY them. (Which is not to say those other things should not exist, but I will get to that). And when I am allowed to actually FLY my ship, Elite is one of the finest, most refined experiences in modern gaming - I mean that.
.....

This is a great post and I agree with 99% with it. These kind of improvements would be welcomed by all players, I think.

Just a small nit pick from my side, that possibly a lot of players enjoy customizing/outfitting the ship very much so, and from business perspective and how much less effort is required to generate income with minimal support, that's why I think we see such a huge increase in cosmetic stuff on Elite. Of course, it's sad for us the consumers who want better gameplay mechanics, but that's most likely the reality.
 
Well said OP.

For me the best gameplay addition lately was the passenger rescue missions from the Thargoid attacked bases. The paniced voice of the ATC, the atmosphere and sense of urgency. Being tossed by explosions and dodging debris.

I really hope more challenges like that is added, turbulent atmospheres, Volcanic planets and gravitational disturbances or explosions in asteroidfields flinging rocks about.

Cheers
DZ
 
Next, we expand actual flight in Supercruise by adding optimal routes, slingshotting,

actually supercruise works the other way around, you use gravity to brake, not to accelerate. and that was nerfed a while ago.

solar flares and winds, etc.

i'm in! you make great suggestions. however, i don't really get your point. most of what i do when i play is flying. or driving, but mostly flying. granted, there are also swaths of 'content' i usually ignore.

regarding the pressing J thing ... yeah, i would have loved there to be no jumps or routes at all, just free hyperdriving across the galaxy with fuel being the only limitation, similar to supercruise, but actually plotting course instead of jumping from a-b-c ...
 
Some great ideas and yes a good solution to how to make more enjoyable.

More flying and reasons to fly are what's needed. Otherwise it is all point and click apart from combat.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
I've said for years now that Jumping should be removed and replaced with SC only and that you could use star systems or other bodies to slingshot, like you suggest in your OP. It's not technically possible given that all star systems are just skyboxes in instances and that the galaxy doesn't actually exist but it would open up more opportunities if done right.
 
Well said OP.

For me the best gameplay addition lately was the passenger rescue missions from the Thargoid attacked bases. The paniced voice of the ATC, the atmosphere and sense of urgency. Being tossed by explosions and dodging debris.

I really hope more challenges like that is added, turbulent atmospheres, Volcanic planets and gravitational disturbances or explosions in asteroidfields flinging rocks about.

Cheers
DZ

Oddly, I have yet to try rescuing passengers from stations. I hate to sound like I am straight up complaining, but...well, its hard to find stuff like this in the game. Even listening to GalNet. And when I have time for full fledged playing, I would rather not spend it coming the forums, as I do when actual play time would be limited anyway.

But your mentioning this brings me back to flight with a sense of scale. I saw my first megaship last night, and it was cool. It got me thinking about salvage opportunities and scale, and your mention of flying inside dying stations reminded me of that, as well.

Obviously, the inter-system economies in Elite would rely on ships far larger than the ones the Pilot's Fed currently support. If you are feeding, fueling, healing and otherwise supporting 20+ BILLION people in a system, your grain, meat and other resources are coming in Megaships and Super Containers. No way is a flight or give or Conda's supporting those numbers on its own.

This means opportunity to both pirate, and salvage, these larger ships. As well as repair and refuel them. Whether we find one almost totally destroyed, or just one mostly intact but floating dead in the water (where we can choose repair, or pirate or even both) we could fly beside and among the ruins of these colossal ships, offering a sense of scale while also providing opportunity for normal space flight activity.

And as for passenger rescue, I think I may check out where this is happening and what I need in order to give it a go. Thanks for remdining me.
 
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