Been talking with Rochester about Holdstocks ragthorn book…. Going back over the art tornquist and cora names associated with the first known mention of raxxla….

Art Tornquist always made me think of King Arthur (Glastonbury tree). Cora could refer to the Lady Elaine … I tend to lean not towards the Lady of Shalott … but rather the Lady of Corbenic (in game). Maiden of the Grail… Of course she was entwined with Lancelot- not Arthur. But as part of the trials associated with Elaine … Lancelot killed a Dragon…

Ya i think this is a reference to the standard archetype of hero/god fights with snake/ dragon

And a nice depiction of Lancelots Dragon slaying done by Rackham! (where does he find the time?)
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This is an example of snakes as guardians of the tree of life/axis. And the need to fight them for access… The grail is an object that is associated with life giving powers ( think soma /amrit) - in Christian ideas the path to god is through christ - he is associated with the tree/axis - see the Dream of the Rood. This is the golden chain - the path to the Sun Door read coomaraswamy.

I think we need to steal something guarded by the thargoids… we already did that to an extent with the meta-alloys…
 
The Ragthorn by Robert Holdstock (RH) is rather fascinating.

Upon reflection there is an amusing symmetry with our own endeavours; as the characters are focused upon academic research of arcane text to uncover a lost secret.

Overall unlike RH Lost Realms, my initial analysis cannot draw as many direct nor clear associations between Ragthorn and in game systems. However, there are but a few examples, which have helped me discover several systems, indirectly.

In Ragthorn the narrative talks of a secret tree and within archaic texts it is written to be surrounded and protected by the Rune for Thorn. This is married with a physical temple which surrounds a tree with four alters, to birth, maturity and death and one which is unknown.

This passage reminded me of the Raxxla logo; especially of RH book the Lost Realms and Jorki Rasalas discussions upon the tri-partite goddess.

Question: Is Raxxla surrounded or protected in game by three goddesses?

In game there are various goddesses which may qualify to this description, a number of them are in the Lost Realms sector in game, but to date none orientate in any pattern, other than being in a tight focal point.

Again Holdstock utilises and repeats the use of the mystical number seven, something which may be prevalent in the codex too!

I believe the rune mentioned as Thorn to be probably Thurisaz of the Futhark and/or Futhorc alphabet, linked to chaos and power. The word ‘Thorn’ is the Anglo-Saxon spelling of the old Norse ‘Thorn’ but spelt with a Þ representing the ‘th’ sound; or ‘Thurs’.

Thurisaz is in game but it’s actually very high up in the upper celestial sphere, in an area common with ‘heavenly’ deities. Many of these are attributed to parental gods, or gods denoting the highest areas in their pantheon.

Oddly there are also two systems close to each other named after those runic alphabets, Futhorc and Futhark situated within the Lost Realms sector.

This area is common with lower or ‘demonic’ deities, some attributed to concepts of an underworld, an abyss or watery depths, this also abuts the segments of Yggdrasil common with its ‘edge of the world’, which in my opinion tied with the ‘Lost Realms’ concept as an area identifying a boundary for the ‘Otherworld’.

Interestingly in Gaelic folklore the entrance to this ‘Otherworld’ is thought to be marked by the Hawthorn tree!

Commonly the concept of a world-tree involves a guardian deity or entrance point or bridge. Similar to that of Celtic concepts or the boundaries of the Otherworld.

Hawthorn tree - Quickthorn; Whitethorn; Hagthorn; Mayflower; Bara Caws; Sgitheach in Gaelic; Sceach in Irish; Hagþorn / Hagaþorn in Norse; Hagtorn in Swedish; Hagedorn in German. None of these are in game.

Hawthorn maybe associated with ‘life, longevity and protection’. Linked to Beltane ‘the fires of Bel’ Bel, likely the Celtic sun god, Belenus, which is in game.

Another thorny tree, the Blackthorn tree is likewise known as - Sloh; Sloe; Draigean in Gaelic; Draenen ddu in Welsh; Slaþorn In Norse. None are in game.

Blackthorn is known as: ‘Mother of the wood’ associated with bad luck and witchcraft. In Norse mythology it’s a sacred tree to the Dark, or Crone aspect of the Triple Goddess, and represents the Waning and Dark Moons, associated with the Scottish Cailleach – the Crone of Death; Hecate in Greece; or the Irish Morrigan, also in game.

Question: How many systems or bodies exist in game attributed to triple goddesses, and thorny trees?

In game Futhorc has a body Graysonia which means ‘middle of nowhere’; next to it in game is Futhark which essentially is just another name for the same alphabet, this has a body Chuillin, which is Celtic for ‘Holly bush’ - what a peculiar coincidence, yet of the numerous names I could locate associated with such mythological trees, none so far seem to be replicated in game.

Outside of this, whilst talking to Simulacrae about Arthurian legend, I was able to recall mention in the book, of the Welsh god Mabon.

Mabon was a god of divine light, linked to the pagan sabbat and celebrated as part of the wheel of the year and harvest festivals. He was born of the goddess Dea Motrona, a mother deity. As a child Mabon was also kidnapped to the underworld, consecutively there are parallels here with the myth of Persephone!

Both of these are in game, Dea Motrona is within the ‘upper celestial sphere’ where as Mabon, again sits in the Lost Realms area, again an indication I strongly suspect is intentional.

Note, in game although these systems are similar comparatively, in regards to Persephone and Demeter, their positions in the upper and lower hemispheres are not so identically aligned.

Mabon and Dea Motrona are interesting, as are many of our older gods, as they have a link to arthurian legend.

Mabon can be attributed to a character from King Arthur’s war party, and likewise Dea Motrona might be associated with Morgan le Fay!

Note Arthurian legend is partly fictional, but mostly an extrapolation of older Celtic / Saxon / Norse / Druidic mythology which dates back 4,000 years. This was a key aspect within RH Lost Realms and his other works.

Personally I don’t suspect these links are attributed in game nor directing us to Arthurian legend, but rather these are similarly examples of a common shared mythology outlined in Ragthorn; namely the legend of the Glastonbury Thorn which was a Hawthorn tree which themselves have deeper roots in older Celtic mythology.

Question: Is the context of Holdstocks Ragthorn’s ‘thorny’ trees as guardians replicated in game, with a thorny tree pointing the way towards the Otherworld and Raxxla?

Another amusing aspect of Ragthorn; was that there’s a short reference to John Milton and Paradise Lost. Sadly such a reference does not initially offer any particular new insight, as it doesn’t name any new elements.

Another anomaly exists in the last story (it’s 3 stories in one book) where there is the following familiar line, which I found amusing:

The talk is all of the stars “spinning” and swirling”.

Ragthorn is a fun gothic tale which I devoured in an afternoon, I do recommended it. I’m uncertain presently if it offers any in-depth context to the game, at most I do suspect it’s had some influence but I’ve yet to identify anything as substantial as the influence RH Lost Realms has had in game..

A thorny work in progress.
 
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Yeah, the cut scenes are time saving but quickly become boring. But then long flights between systems in ED are also boring...

Bethesda have obviously put a lot of effort into making the cutscenes graphically attractive, but ED is inherently beautiful (though I preferred the pre-Odyssey visuals). The ideal would be to beef up ED with decent storylines. Perhaps the devs will play Starfield and learn some lessons!?
I'd love to see Bethesda + Frontier to collab.
Bethesda does ground and quest interaction, Frontier does Space.
I'm enjoying Starfield but long to pick up the helm to search for Raxxla again.

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I'd love to see Bethesda + Frontier to collab.
Bethesda does ground and quest interaction, Frontier does Space.
I'm enjoying Starfield but long to pick up the helm to search for Raxxla again.

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You can't make hand-made quests for 40000 star systems or infinite gameplay like Elite is.
 
You can't make hand-made quests for 40000 star systems or infinite gameplay like Elite is.
I disagree. It is possible.There would be limits to this of course;

Look at the several handcrafted worlds and 'old' mission lines that were removed. Just like chasing down ships for hunting missions or recieving secret comms while following beacons.
 
I disagree. It is possible.There would be limits to this of course;

Look at the several handcrafted worlds and 'old' mission lines that were removed. Just like chasing down ships for hunting missions or recieving secret comms while following beacons.
All is still there. Everything works yet. But not enough for you. That what I said before. Game has no end, so it needs infinite work in that way.
Paid quests are there, extra quests need extra payment.
 
Wondering if we have been neglecting a distinct possibility - that Raxxla is one or several objects that when combined in a specific way or at a specific place activates the Omphalos Rift. The Martian Relic was tiny - only the size of a human child's palm. There are numerous other references to similar small but important objects. This is from Wanted. The Journey may be part of realizing what these key objects are and how they must be used either alone or together.

Ji Khanguire - object of value.png
 
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Just mapped the fates, in relation to the Greek gods and the Greek wind compass the Anemoi. It still corresponds to my minds eye, and the fates triangulate nicely, but their alignment seems off / or does it?

View attachment 363975
*White denotes the Greek god’s systems linked to the story of Persephone. Green line denotes the Greek north wind compass. Orange line denotes the 3 fates - Clotho, Atropos and Lachesis.

They sit nicely up high with Helios, but don’t seem to sit ‘around’ any common axis?
Think I’ve found another tripartite goddess, the Morrigan whilst following up on research from Lost Realms and looking for goddess’s in Holdstocks ‘Ragthorn’.

Holdstock painted an interesting image of a tree surrounded by alters dedicated to ‘youth, maturity and death’. Made me think of the logo and Yggdrasil.

Badb; Danu and Morrigan

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Is this relevant, is this pattern bias?

In this same relative area are systems named after the three Norse Norns, and the three Greek fates?

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I’ve since updated my Lost Realms theory to include this, but so far cannot see that they follow any common orientation, nor if they surround something.

In myth the Morrigan was amongst various other things a guardian of the boundary to the Otherworld; The Norns attended a well of knowledge (in game but far off); the Fates a spindle or distaff of our fates.

Note these deities don’t share any commonalities that I’m aware of: the Morrigan was thought to be possibly one person, just going by other name, whilst the Norns were not fates, nor muses or either goddess, and they didn’t represent ‘youth, maturity nor death’.


And of course these are not the only ones, not checked these yet: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad_(religion)

So unless there’s a common thread I would suppose they serve another purpose?
 
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Note these deities don’t share any commonalities that I’m aware of: the Morrigan was thought to be possibly one person, just going by other name, whilst the Norns were not fates, nor muses or either goddess, and they didn’t represent ‘youth, maturity nor death’.

I would argue that the norns and fates are representing the same thing. They are both arbiters of fate or wyrd. The norns are even sometimes cast in the “weaving of fate” role:

“Mightily wove they
the web of fate,
While Bralund's towns
were trembling all;
And there the golden
threads they wove,
And in the moon's hall
fast they made them.”
-Helgakvida Hundingsbana I

Even talks about the golden thread … er chain…

Interesting that they are so nicely bundled together there.
 
I would argue that the norns and fates are representing the same thing. They are both arbiters of fate or wyrd. The norns are even sometimes cast in the “weaving of fate” role:

“Mightily wove they
the web of fate,
While Bralund's towns
were trembling all;
And there the golden
threads they wove,
And in the moon's hall
fast they made them.”
-Helgakvida Hundingsbana I

Even talks about the golden thread … er chain…

Interesting that they are so nicely bundled together there.
I would agree, their in game relative positioning would certainly re-enforce this.

It’s obvious to my experienced eye such systems; namely Yggdrasil and the Lost Realms, have been inserted into game by hand and placed so intentionally.

To the extent that ‘supporting’ elements such as Greek and Celtic deities correlate and contextualise each other!

I’m impressed by the level of restraint there has been, none of these symbolic groupings seem to fall into uniformity. To my eye this might indicate the author has placed elements so they ‘draw’ the attention through classical associations, towards a fulcrum in the Lost Realms area, not necessarily wholly via visual senses, although that too is evident.

This to my experience shows the level of creativity and knowledge of the author, I can’t express fully how impressive it is. I hope FD understands what an amazing work this cosmological construct is. I can only wonder at what ‘might have been’ if the older DW missions were still in game.

I am as you know of the opinion, all of this is by the hand of Brookes, and these constructions visually build a three dimensional cosmology construct of his (supposedly) unwritten book.

The journey we all much take, is the journey to the ‘Otherworld’, to our time upon the mountain, to follow our fernweh back to those older lands.
 
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Mmm, may be a little high on painkillers at the moment ( cracked knee ligament yesterday, agony!).

However it may be sometime, if ever, before I get back to ED so I’ll post my latest/last hypothesis (at the moment on crutches & cant get near the PC).
I’ve been watching all the work on relating mythologies into the game with interest, and support the enthusiasm. However it just seems to be adding possibilities into the pot, without clarifying an identifiable path through the game systems so I don’t see it is helping. Ive already posted my suspicion that MBrookes’ tattoo depicts that path (it’s an obvious conclusion); however there is another possibility which is much simpler.
I could see MB wanting to make the quest for Raxxla complex, hence the mythology insertions and the back tattoo (which would have been very painful to acquire) - he clearly invested effort in researching the mythology and inserting the relevant systems into the game, although someone said that could be done easily via a simple spreadsheet input into Stellar Forge. The tattoo could depict the path but I’m left wondering if it isnt all much simpler than this...I like to keep things simple, Occam’s Razor!

So, how about if MB actually told us where Raxxla is...Artemis in Elite Legacy? We know that character Hammer (IMO the description sounded very much like a self-portrait of MB) was killed with no body left for a burial so the inhabitants of Freeholm gave him a traditional spacer send off by filling a cargo container with trinkets and launched it into space. We know Trinkets of Hidden Fortune are intentionally highlighted in-game because he made them illegal in ALL systems with no explanation or hints to a lore-based reason for that. We know from their description that TOHF are cargo containers but have a special item hidden inside. I’m suggesting that perhaps the quest should focus on Artemis, and search for a cargo container floating somewhere in space, most likely in a signal source that would not be detectable until quite close. In the book IIRC Freeholm was an asteroid base embedded in an asteroid field, which would account for “spiralling stars” hint in the codex. The EDSM system description doesnt seem to fit that, so I’d query why the difference...Ive seen other systems with asteroid belts out a long way from the star.

This may sound a little far-fetched, but there are other reasons behind it: Artemis fits the toast!

Jewel on brow of mother of galaxies- Sol/Mother Gaia faction/Luna (Moon/Selene)- In later times, in some places, Artemis was identified with Selene the personification of the Moon

Whisperer in witchspace, siren of the deepest void- Artemis absorbed the Pre-Greek Potnia Theron goddess who was close to the daimons (lesser deities or spirits similar to the ghosts and tutelary deities) hence she was later identified with Hecate (goddess of crossroads and queen of the witches).

(Edit: so another triple goddess-Artemis/Selene/Hecate)

Parent’s grief, lover’s woe (death is an obvious answer here) - Agamemnon had to sacrifice his daughter to Artemis at the start of the Trojan War; there are several stories surrounding her where men such as Actaeon, Orion, and Alpheus tried to her, only to be thwarted or killed

the yearning of our vagabond hearts - Questors are the vagabonds?
The goddesses Artemis, Selene, and Hecate formed a triad, identified as the same goddess with three avatars: Selene in the sky (moon), Artemis on earth (hunting), and Hecate beneath the earth (Underworld). Artemis was sometimes depicted with a lunate crown. Her symbol shows the crossroads from the logo
Artemis’ symbol:

images.png



@Rochester’s mountain ideas may also be relevant: It is believed that a precursor of Artemis was worshipped in Minoan Crete as the goddess of mountains and hunting!
 
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I do believe the codex is also pointing us towards Brookes ‘Legacy’, although as of late other than the Artemis system I can’t identify anything else from that book which might point elsewhere, many of the systems it talks of were fictional.

The system Artemis is interesting because it has the bodies Agrotera and Laphria. the Laphria festival took place in Agriterra which is another name for Artemis, the body Laphria was likewise talked of in ‘Legacy’. This I suspect is a great deal of context which might simply ‘emphasise’ this system’s importance. And as we’ve identified previously, that book contains a quote about Raxxla and a ‘children’s story’, collectively this in my opinion just emphasises Legacy’s potential!

But I’m sure there’s something in the book we’re simply not seeing, which points the way, or provides some abstract or indirect reference.

Raxxla I strongly feel is more likely elsewhere as I take the Codex toast to align with FDs recent memorial reference to John Milton’s ‘pendant’ Paradise; and most of the remainder of the Codex I believe points to the Lost Realms. but I have a strong suspicion Hammers grave (if in game) may point the way!

Looking back into the mythology of ‘mountains’ being a path to the Otherworld, Artemis is slap-bang in the middle of the ‘mountain’ range constellation, ‘Legacy’ talks of Artemis and Demeter, which might be a reference to the story of Persephone pointing us to the Underworld and the Lost Realms of the Otherworld; relatively the various hypotheses could still correlate?

The burial method of ‘Hammer’ also sounds similar to Celtic practices. I wonder if there’s a link to burial mounds, which were ascribed as passageways to the ‘Otherworld’?

The in game description of Trinkets does indeed read very similar to that of the burial method outlined in ‘Legacy’; and I agree the character of Hammer is an obvious portrait of Brookes in my opinion, that was the very first impression I had when I got the book at launch.

We know from Support the trinkets used to be linked to the now removed DW missions, so they did have some significance.

FDs recent memorial to Brookes nicely references back to that burial method which is very touching but also ingenious. Looking for clues this logically ought to point us to look in Artemis, a cargo pod would not get very far.

Does Freeholm have an orbital path or a rotation? If it’s fixed and static the obvious direction of the pod would be in a relative direction. If not then it’s in orbit around Freeholm, or the star in the same plain as Freeholm, or as equally likely on any of the solid bodies in that system as a POV?

Failing that what else could the book be outlining for us?

Whether or not such an asset would be present across console legacy is of another matter entirely.
 
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