The Star Citizen Thread v5

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There are plenty of flying ships in Star Citizen. And more are released with each patch to date.
“Plenty of” is still only a small fraction of the ones they've presented and sold, and while their ship pipeline is the only thing that actually seems to produce anything at the moment, it's definitely not keeping up with the patching pace (which is already rather slow). With so many variants, a lot of it is just the same thing, warmed over.

Fun is a perfect descriptor for a game.
No. It's a perfect goal for a game. As a descriptor, it's useless. Anything can be fun, but what does that tell us about the thing itself? Nothing, because it doesn't correlate with anything that actually makes the game what it is.

My favourite example is Mercenaries 2. It was a really fun game, especially in co-op. It was fun because it was broken, stupid, buggy, hugely inconsistent, and didn't do co-op well. It was bad in every way, and hilarity abounded. Brown Military Shooter 2017 [pick your favourite], on the other hand, is a good game, with tight controls, balanced gameplay, intensely studied and refined reward mechanisms, and a small army of tech guys to keep the networking running. Chances are that, on average, it'll be terminally dull.

If you want to describe what an actual game offers, you need to describe the game itself. “Fun” is your reaction to what it offers… maybe. It is just as often your reaction to some kind of meta-game (which is the case with Mercs 2 — hence why I like the example), which isn't really about the game at all. For instance, your standard beer-and-pretzel game isn't fun because of the game, but because you're socialising with snacks and drinks — the game is just a vehicle to get that socialising going. To start poking at the game, you could use something like the (now-)classic MDA framework and start digging into what aesthetics it offers — it explains the “fun” you're experiencing in more useful terms.

Also, no, “fun” is not the point of “a game” — just look at Brenda Romero's “Train” — the point of a game tends to be to evoke some kind of emotional state (except maybe boredom), commonly through some form of escapism, and the question is whether it succeeds and how it goes about doing that. But not even that is really assured.

What is it that I actually like? The high quality graphics, being able to walk thru your ship, being able to fight on foot in your ship and being able to group easily with others and fight multi-crew or multi-ship (at something i find better even in this Alpha than i do with 2.3 in ED).
So basically, you have two game mechanics (two forms of shooting) to create one actual dynamic (combat), and the aesthetics are sensation and fellowship. This tells us what the game offers, and if that aligns with what you want, you find that “fun”.
 
Kindly show me where it was said 3.0 WILL release before the end of 2016, Because I can clearly show you where C.R. says they will TRY to do so but no promises...

You are holding onto that like a drowning man. Telling people that they would even TRY was the lie. He knew it wasn't remotely possible, because he has more intelligence than your average cocker spaniel. No one could look at a years worth of unstarted work for which no plan of action existed, and think "we could do this in 3 months or less". He used to be a developer for Crobbert's sake! He understands that massive feature sets for which no planning or work has been done won't magically appear. He was just telling people it was that close to look good on stage and bring in some extra funding. It. Was. A. Lie.
 
So when a software developer's (or project manager, whatever title you wish to give Chris Roberts) product is delayed for over 3 years past the announced release date, their statements no longer have any credibility?

Would that be all their public statements, or just statements about the development cycle?

Given Chris' quarter-century track record, it should probably be extended to all his public statements at this point.
 
Oh come on thorn, that's very disingenuous. No one is upset that it's late (hell thats just par for the course). People are upset because there is no way on earth that he thought it could be ready within 3 months. Let's not forget that he too was a developer once. When you have a years worth of work in front of you (as they're finally admitting) and you say "yeah we're hoping to have it out within 3 months, <but no promises! *wink*,*stupid-grin*>" what is that but a lie?? Well, incompetence, sure that's an option. Gross incompetence that should send you running for the hills, ok I'd accept that as an alternative.


Im excited to see what comes out of this 3.0 release. So far every time I've tried SC it hasn't been fun. Maybe 3.0 will turn the tide and so for me personally I'm a bit excited about this sign of life, but I cannot blame anyone who feels lied to and deceived. Now that CIG has to admit their real status, it takes willfulness to ignore the lie.

It's not just the 3.0 release - it's pretty much everything.

Even if you give the benefit of the doubt as to deliberate lies where does that leave you regarding competent estimates?

The guy that's in charge and has access to all the info all the time is so far out so often - not just a couple of weeks or months even - how can you give any credibility to any of his statements?

Now looking at June - haha - for a cut down version of what was meant to be - aimed to be - hoped to be - for Dec 16.
 
You are holding onto that like a drowning man. Telling people that they would even TRY was the lie. He knew it wasn't remotely possible, because he has more intelligence than your average cocker spaniel. No one could look at a years worth of unstarted work for which no plan of action existed, and think "we could do this in 3 months or less". He used to be a developer for Crobbert's sake! He understands that massive feature sets for which no planning or work has been done won't magically appear. He was just telling people it was that close to look good on stage and bring in some extra funding. It. Was. A. Lie.

LA LA LA he never PROMISED hahaha LALA he said "we try" /highfives other white knight #score
 
Kindly show me where it was said 3.0 WILL release before the end of 2016, Because I can clearly show you where C.R. says they will TRY to do so but no promises...

You keep missing this:

We've been down this road with you before. So you're bringing it up again as part of your usual deflection tactic, seeing as you have failed to answer a direct question you were asked.

CR Said:
“..so, it’s our big end of the year release. er so er yeah, so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”
- Chris Roberts, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-3YBuFI3iI&t=1416

You're welcome.
 
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And I'll ask you again, do you consider the new schedule to be a commitment to deliver it this time?
Do you think they will deliver it this time?

I take the Production Schedule for 3.0 for example as they say it is. And estimated schedule for the release of 3.0.


It is there in rather clear English.


And I quote:


CAVEATS

But also, we would like to establish some ground rules before proceeding:

I.Quality will always be our number one goal. We set out on this journey by looking at the gaming landscape and asking: can we do better? We continue to ask that question about everything we do. As a result, we will ALWAYS extend timelines or re-do features and content if we do not feel they are up to our standards. The freedom to fight for a new level of quality in game development is what crowd funding has allowed us, and we will continue to fight to make sure Star Citizen is the best possible game it can be.

II.The estimates we provide are just that: estimates. They are based on our knowledge and experience, but there are many aspects of game development that are impossible to predict because they literally cover uncharted territory. You will see the same estimates we use in our internal planning, but it is important to understand that in many cases (especially with groundbreaking engineering tasks) these estimates are often subject to change due to unforeseen complexity in implementing features.

III.The time expected for bug fixing and polishing is also very hard to estimate, increasingly so in online and multiplayer situations. The complexity and the difficulty in testing at a large scale make it harder to reproduce and isolate bugs in order to fix them. We base our estimates, again, on our experience, but we also know that it’s possible for a single bug to cause a delay of days or weeks when a hundred others might be fixed instantly.

IV.Internal schedules, the ones you will now be privy to, tend to have aggressive dates to help the team focus and scope their tasks, especially in the case of tech development. Every team, even a team blessed with the kind of support and freedom you have allowed us, needs target dates in order to focus and deliver their work.

V.This schedule doesn’t cover everything being worked on across Cloud Imperium Games, but is meant to highlight our aims for the remainder of the year on the Persistent Universe.

VI.This schedule doesn’t include every audio, vfx, tech art, etc. task. Those are detailed in our departmental sub-schedules.

VIIAlthough technology is shared between the two games, this does not reflect the Squadron 42 schedule. That will be released at a future date.

VIII.These aim dates are determined based on our current staff. Additional hiring will potentially allow us to bring in some dates below.

- - - Updated - - -

You keep missing this:



You're welcome.

What part of "SO NOT MAKING PROMISES" didn't you get?
 
I hadn't read it properly before;

"so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”

we’re gonna get it out the end of the year

that’s our goal


Looking again I'd say he definitely meant sometime in 2017 to me - I guess sometimes we just don't understand words.
 
Well, it just show they are completely incompetent and should do something else.

So I'm inferring from your words here that you believe a developer/project manager (such as Chris Roberts is) that repeatedly lies, or attempts to defraud (under the criteria used in this forum's various posts) people by either denying refunds, or overstating the progress made on a game, is "completely incompetent and should do something else."

That would be an accurate inference?

Do you think this a fair standard in the industry, or is Chris Roberts being held to a higher one?
 
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I hadn't read it properly before;

"so we’re gonna get it out the end of the year; hopefully not on December 19th but, er, like last year….but it is a big one, so, not making er, I got shot for making promises, but er, that’s our goal.”

we’re gonna get it out the end of the year

that’s our goal


Looking again I'd say he definitely meant sometime in 2017 to me - I guess sometimes we just don't understand words.

Goal: the result or achievement toward which effort is directed; aim; end.

None of that says "promise" "sure thing" "100% for sure". It says its just that an EFFORT. CIG couldn't make it. So they continued to work on it.

Was I disappointed they couldn't hit December? Sure. Am I going to complain and moan? Especially if I don't even like the game? Why would I even bother other than to make noise?

In fact a lot of cool stuff has shown up in the later releases of Star Citizen. So forward progress is being made. It IS improving and it IS moving forward. Will 3.0 drop in June? I hope so, but I would rather wait for something than rush it. Those that don't want to? Go ahead, get a refund. That's the way it works.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok he said no promises. We get that. Really. Here's the part we don't get.

Do you, as in Evil_Merlin personally, believe that he thought for one second it could all be done within that timeframe, promises or not?


I have no reason to believe otherwise. They originally thought they could, but found they could not.
 
So I'm inferring from your words here that you believe a developer/project manager (such as Chris Roberts is) that repeatedly lies, or attempts to defraud (under the criteria used in this forum's various posts) people by either denying refunds, or overstating the progress made on a game, is "completely incompetent and should do something else."

That would be an accurate inference?

Your being a bit harsh about Chris there, he's just 20 years out of touch and in over his head with 145 million in pre-order debt.
 
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What part of "SO NOT MAKING PROMISES" didn't you get?

Lol, calm down there Mr Angry Pants.

The part where CR constantly runs his mouth telling you folks that he's making all these great things for you and then he goes right on ahead and just completely ignores everything he said and brushes it off while you guys thank him for being such a great visionary by not doing what he said he would do.

When someone says "I'm going to do *task* hopefully on *soon date*" makes millions from his statement and then doesn't do said task, or only starts planing on begining it months after they suggested it would be done, well that just makes them all kinds of shady and you should feel ashamed to fall for such a low, tactless, morally corrupt and downright sleazy money grab.
 
Chris didn't promise anything. It checks out:

MZPH3XG.jpg
 
I have no reason to believe otherwise. They originally thought they could, but found they could not.

So it didn't strike you as odd when they started talking about making plans for 3.0 sometime after the end of the year?

(we’re gonna get it out the end of the year)
 
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I take the Production Schedule for 3.0 for example as they say it is. And estimated schedule for the release of 3.0.

It is there in rather clear English.

And I quote:

- - - Updated - - -

What part of "SO NOT MAKING PROMISES" didn't you get?

Ok he said no promises. We get that. Really. Here's the part we don't get.

Do you, as in Evil_Merlin personally, believe that he thought for one second it could all be done within that timeframe, promises or not?

I think he said he got shot for making promises, not that this one was not a promise.

For sakes, the CEO stands up and shows a flashy demo, knowing it is 100% not in-game and all fake and that there is not even a schedule to bring the features to the game and says "we will get it out by the end of the year", "that's our goal". It is beyond the pale that he can do that and not have the entire community railing against him.

It is a confidence game. CR making a bunch of statements he knows are not correct to get backer confidence to give him money. [edit to remove duplicate wording.]
 
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