The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Toumal]

First
Maintenance mode =/= no huge gameplay mechanic patches

So if you don't add major new features, and you're mostly maintaining your existing feature set or just add minor new features, that's somehow not maintenance mode?

And don't just reply with "no!" unless you can substantiate your opinion with reasons. Thank you.

 

[Zetta]

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/08/04/who-are-the-star-citizen-superbackers

As I was reading the accounts of SC super backers the voices started to sound like the elderly people in the Saul Goodman commercials in "Better call Saul"

Old Lady in rocking chair: "I put my life savings into Star Citizen. Chris Roberts said he'd get me a game by the time I was 25. That was 73 years ago...He's still taking my money, even though all financial currency was abolished back in 2057"

Funny article. Some delectable quotes

"I don’t engage with them," says Tom, of the backers who post complaints. "When I see people just trolling on the subreddit, or on the main forums, I just put them on ‘ignore’ or close that thread"...

Can you say self-affirmation and confirmation bias.

"I guess you just have to believe, believe in the product that Roberts is trying to push. And at the end of the day, if I’m out the money because the product is not delivered or CIG turns and screws all the fans, it’s on me."

Mulder would be proud, Scully... not so much.

"I decided to put that money where I put it, and if I lose it, I’ll be - who wouldn’t be? - but at the end of the day it was my decision; Chris didn’t come into my house and say, ‘Hey, give me your money!’ and twist my arm."

Nope but Chris did promise you the game to end all games.

---

Was reading an article about the Marina Joyce fiasco that occurred last week, the psychological behaviour of the herd mind is quite an interesting topic and it's easy to see how people get carried away or only see what they want to see, especially on platforms purely dedicated to the person or topic they're following, subreddit, twitter, official forums or whatever - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/04/marina-joyce-internet-hysteria-witch-hunts-cyberspace

 

[AJW]

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/08/04/who-are-the-star-citizen-superbackers

Interesting article:

Maybe that’s what’s unique about Star Citizen: that for at least some of its backers (the happy ones) it’s not a product they’re paying for, but the experience of being a backer.

Makes sense. I've seen it time and time again: people get taken in by the hype about some game or another, only to be disappointed by the reality. People who get more enjoyment through dreaming about things than actually experiencing them. The Star Citizen development model ensures they are as happy as possible for as long as possible. So they continue paying...

 

[Osmanthus]

Funny article. Some delectable quotes

Can you say self-affirmation and confirmation bias.


Mulder would be proud, Scully... not so much.


Nope but Chris did promise you the game to end all games.

---

Was reading an article about the Marina Joyce fiasco that occurred last week, the psychological behaviour of the herd mind is quite an interesting topic and it's easy to see how people get carried away or only see what they want to see, especially on platforms purely dedicated to the person or topic they're following, subreddit, twitter, official forums or whatever - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/04/marina-joyce-internet-hysteria-witch-hunts-cyberspace

That's notable. I found this quote interesting:
"Like many of the people who would go onto to back big, Brian started small. He jumped into the game at the RSI Constellation level - the mantle bestowed on backers who pledge $250 - back during the game’s 2012 Kickstarter."

$250 isn't really that small in any context other than Star Citizen.

Another notable quote:
"[FONT=&quot]“It was easy to do over the course of four years,” says Tom. “Some of this is my own pocket money, but a lot of this is used equipment that I would sell through PayPal. I’ll sell used equipment on eBay, the money shows up on PayPal, then I would use it for games or hardware - ‘fun money’, if you will. So, it’s easy to spend that money on [/FONT]Star Citizen[FONT=&quot], because nothing else is really piquing my interest [right now]."

This is another reason it was at one point in Roberts's interest not to work to release the game too quickly. As long as the game isn't released, CIG will keep raking in money... but to be fair, that's changing now that the donation rates have lowered so much.
[/FONT]

 

[Rolan]

So if you don't add major new features, and you're mostly maintaining your existing feature set or just add minor new features, that's somehow not maintenance mode?

And don't just reply with "no!" unless you can substantiate your opinion with reasons. Thank you.

Using your logic even World of Warcraft is on maintenance mode(And has been on it for 14 years?) because is mostly in the expansions when new mechanics, classes and stuff(major content or features) like that is released.

In maintenance mode you just don't add features, don't add zones, don't add ships, tech, etc... You want to say that it is? Of course you can , but is not true. That the progress is not what we want? Of course... but one thing is not equal to the other.

And btw... this thread becomes a tense place from time to time...

Just try to remember that everyone have the right to have an opinion and expresed it, if you want an echo chamber you can go to SA or to CIG forums. Thank you.[heart]

 

[kilvenny]

Networking - Has anyone given a thought to the impact of space walking to the instance limit. Surely when you space walk you need to join the same instance your ship is in, so effectively there is your ship and you. So a count of two. If you then have a ship with four crew and three decide to board via space walk the count rises to four. Now consider three ships attacking one in this manner, there will be an initial count of three rising to twelve during the space walk. Surely that means the instance count needs to reflect not just the ship count but the number of potential space walkers. Can someone enlighten me?

 

[thorn-]

Networking - Has anyone given a thought to the impact of space walking to the instance limit. Surely when you space walk you need to join the same instance your ship is in, so effectively there is your ship and you.

My completely uninformed instincts tell me that you + ship doesn't equal 2 instanced entities; it would equal 1.

 

[darkoff]

First
Maintenance mode =/= no huge gameplay mechanic patches

And even though I agree that the progress was less of what it should have been, there is progress.

There is no maintenance mode, they may don't progress in the way many of us would want but that doesnt transform the PU into maintenance mode... and with every patch that has been released this has become more and more a fact.

And I'm almost sure someone indeed said that no more content will reach the PU.

finished games can progress as well. And this is pretty much what i have seen in open-beta phase of development. (aka detail and fixes but no big gameplay changes anymore)

Heres a example on how alpha functions.
during the alpha phase of wakfu which was quite fun game (Core complete. Trading combat crafting was functioning and small area to play in complete with dungeon and couple of player classes)
It saw some really drastic changes patch to patch.
For example the game had ecosystem mechanic that allowed people to hunt monsters to extinction.
When players got hands to that system the first thing they did was to hunt all the newbie monsters into extinction. Leaving 10 kilometers of game area littered with corpses of sheep monsters.(truly a awe inspiring sight)
next patch they remade the mechanic completely while adding several other mechanics in the game like player driven politics (which players broke instantly )
Overall the game had truly unique ideas in alpha that were impossible to balance. So they never implemented those mechanics in to beta version of the game. Overall the game became really boring. Because all the innovative stuff didnt get into the beta.

Now lets look at same thing in star citizen.
Do we see drastic changes to mechanics patch to patch?
No
Have they implemented the core of game (trading, combat, mining, exploration) so people can test out how the player base interacts with base mechanics?
No
have they gotten alpha to work with 100's of players running around same instance and see how that affects the gameplay flow?
No

Conclusion
the game is in tech demo stage of development.
Yet that tech demo is being maintained like released product. Aka maintenance mode bug fixes and polish additions like bounty system.
if rest of game was coming they wouldn't have implemented bounty system yet. Because it requires trading mechanic to be in the game to function properly.
The polish is wasted on the tech demo.

every core gameplay should be implemented for this game to be alpha.
this is not the case.
now some people will point out that star citizen is pre-alpha
which actually means pretty much same thing as tech demo
pre-alpha is the proof of concept of the game. It means that the game we are currently seeing means nothing.
they may or may not continue using the underlying tech to build up the game.
And to me it looks clear that they cant progress with this version of the game (You can pretty much clip trough every object in the game a problem that is in the core code of the game).
So why are they doing polish on a throw away version of the game code?

And btw... this thread becomes a tense place from time to time...

Just try to remember that everyone have the right to have an opinion and expresed it, if you want an echo chamber you can go to SA or to CIG forums. Thank you.[heart]

Have to agree with this. Everyone has a right to have a opinion.
But at same time others have right to challenge that opinion, if they give reasons why their reasoning is correct.

 

[Maruun]

Interesting article:



Makes sense. I've seen it time and time again: people get taken in by the hype about some game or another, only to be disappointed by the reality. People who get more enjoyment through dreaming about things than actually experiencing them. The Star Citizen development model ensures they are as happy as possible for as long as possible. So they continue paying...

It reminds me of this:

As long you take your "Joy" you are one of them happy few...

 

[briguy168]

Networking - Has anyone given a thought to the impact of space walking to the instance limit. Surely when you space walk you need to join the same instance your ship is in, so effectively there is your ship and you. So a count of two. If you then have a ship with four crew and three decide to board via space walk the count rises to four. Now consider three ships attacking one in this manner, there will be an initial count of three rising to twelve during the space walk. Surely that means the instance count needs to reflect not just the ship count but the number of potential space walkers. Can someone enlighten me?

My completely uninformed instincts tell me that you + ship doesn't equal 2 instanced entities; it would equal 1.

As far as I'm aware, the underlying plan is to have multiple instances sharing information with each other so that it "appears" to be one instance. Could be wrong though.

 

[Zetta]

It reminds me of this:
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/320240/header.jpg?t=1469560270

As long you take your "Joy" you are one of them happy few...

I'm surprised at how many justify things by saying they are buying into the "Star Citizen Experience™", it's a strange phenomena.

ie

THAT is to me the central message of this article:

"Maybe that’s what’s unique about Star Citizen: that for at least some of its backers (the happy ones) it’s not a product they’re paying for, but the experience of being a backer. Like that age-old piece of advice to gamblers heading out to Vegas for the weekend, the people who come back happy aren’t generally the people who go to win, but the people who can see their losses at the tables as the price of a good time."

Have fun

To which someone replied

That's the message that you choose to take away from the 'experience'. You feel it's an 'experience' because that makes you feel better. You're not just 1 of 500,000 backers or someone who doesn't get game development anymore, you are now an enlightened individual belongng to an esteemed club who understands the cosmic message that Chris Roberts is broadcasting on the space waves of the Milky Way for the ultimate Star Citizen experience.

 

[Asp Explorer]

My lulzbucket exploded and now there are millions of lulz wetting themselves in laughter all over the place.

It doesn't matter if it's in Star Citizen or Advanced Do Nothing Simulator, this kind of urm, crazy, is utterly hilarious. And deeply disturbing.

 

[briguy168]

finished games can progress as well. And this is pretty much what i have seen in open-beta phase of development. (aka detail and fixes but no big gameplay changes anymore)

Heres a example on how alpha functions.
during the alpha phase of wakfu which was quite fun game (Core complete. Trading combat crafting was functioning and small area to play in complete with dungeon and couple of player classes)
It saw some really drastic changes patch to patch.
For example the game had ecosystem mechanic that allowed people to hunt monsters to extinction.
When players got hands to that system the first thing they did was to hunt all the newbie monsters into extinction. Leaving 10 kilometers of game area littered with corpses of sheep monsters.(truly a awe inspiring sight)
next patch they remade the mechanic completely while adding several other mechanics in the game like player driven politics (which players broke instantly )
Overall the game had truly unique ideas in alpha that were impossible to balance. So they never implemented those mechanics in to beta version of the game. Overall the game became really boring. Because all the innovative stuff didnt get into the beta.

So my question would be, what was the scope of this game? Was it a AAA title or the more likely the proverbial "indie" title?

 

[lysan]

So my question would be, what was the scope of this game? Was it a AAA title or the more likely the proverbial "indie" title?

It was an indie title, CIG are not cable of lifting the task of making a AAA title, we see that clearly now.

 

[Rolan]

finished games can progress as well.

Of course

Now lets look at same thing in star citizen.
Do we see drastic changes to mechanics patch to patch?
No
Have they implemented the core of game (trading, combat, mining, exploration) so people can test out how the player base interacts with base mechanics?
No
have they gotten alpha to work with 100's of players running around same instance and see how that affects the gameplay flow?
No

So you decide when is in maintenance mode, I don't really see the point of arguing at all then... even though those questions could have been changed... for example

Spoiler

have they gotten alpha to work with more players that in 2.0 running around same instance and see how that affects the gameplay flow?
Yep the cap was raised in 2.whatever...

Have new ships been implemented?
Yep

Are new zones in development and more sooner than later released to everyone in alpha? Yes

Are they implementing the tech that is needed for new features and mechanics? Yes

Drastic? No, and software doesn't need "drastic" changes to avoid being in maintenance mode, changes? Sure... 2.5 is an example.... you want to be an outlaw? You have Grimhex as new home.

Do we have big patches with more planets o solar systems? No, we want them? Sure

Do we have the roles implemented? No, and I have said many times this is a mistake.

Or the objective way

Have there been released patches with more elements than security measures and bug fixing? Yes


So... it is in maintenance mode? No, you want to say it is... ok you can say it. But while they continue to release patches with content (big or small ones) it is not in maintenance(I'm starting to hate this word after repeating it so much... mantenimiento is so much easy) mode.

P.D.-And to be fair, combat is in the game, it could be way better but it is ingame. Not always all have to be black or white...

if rest of game was coming they wouldn't have implemented bounty system yet. Because it requires trading mechanic to be in the game to function properly.
The polish is wasted on the tech demo.

So your conclusion is that the rest of the game is not coming just because they have implemented bounty hunt without trading...? Ok


Bounty hunt works better with trading(it works better too with the mission system working correctly, with escort missions and with many other features) but is does not require it... Should trade be there? Sure... but at the same time it seems that the tech is not implemented yet so that functionality can not be implemented, but on the other hand the bounty system seems to work more or less correctly, more so in the next patch.

pre-alpha is the proof of concept of the game. It means that the game we are currently seeing means nothing.

In terms of what is going to be when is completed? Sure. But your idea that this alpha is just there to be there and nothing will be in the final game is quite peculiar...

they may or may not continue using the underlying tech to build up the game.

Every patch adds more unlerlying tech... like the item system and others so... the answer is simple.

And to me it looks clear that they cant progress with this version of the game (You can pretty much clip trough every object in the game a problem that is in the core code of the game).
So why are they doing polish on a throw away version of the game code?

Which polish? The bug fixing?
It was not many days(or weeks probably, I hope not months) ago some here had a discussion about why some bugs are not fixed already with Ben Parrys intervention btw...

Have to agree with this. Everyone has a right to have a opinion.
But at same time others have right to challenge that opinion, if they give reasons why their reasoning is correct.

Sure... but try to respect each other...

 

[AJW]

As far as I'm aware, the underlying plan is to have multiple instances sharing information with each other so that it "appears" to be one instance. Could be wrong though.

That doesn't make sense. Either information between specific players is shared in real time - making them part of the same instance - or it isn't. Unless CIG are defining 'instance' to mean something else entirely.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Maybe it's the famed local physics grids

 

[milligna]

As far as I'm aware, the underlying plan is to have multiple instances sharing information with each other so that it "appears" to be one instance. Could be wrong though.

So what exactly is the advantage of not implementing the underlying plan from the beginning since that's the only way to make CR's vision of this game possible? Why waste years and huge amounts of effort redoing the feeble netcode several times that doesn't work at all like the "underlying plan" - you'd think if they'd figured out this brilliant way to have multiple nested instances, they'd... I dunno, actually use it.

How many years in is the appropriate time to actually begin work on implementing the underlying plan? For a game absolutely dependent on the capabilities of the instancing system in EVERY way, six years in? Seven? Nine, right at the end?

Any networking experts want to chime in about the obvious advantages of trying many years worth of ultimately useless networking schemes that have nothing to do with the underlying plan before actually unveiling your incredible solution that I'm somehow not grasping due to not understanding troubled game development?

 

[McGlashan]

“I don’t sense the bull that comes from corporately controlled games,” Tom explains.

The key to that is what he says next:

"what they sold you at E3 three or four years ago is not what’s delivered to you on release"

Let's see if you sense the once SC releases (or is cancelled). Until then it's all just happy rainbow dream land where nothing is a lie and no promises are broken.

 

[milligna]

the post mortem piece on SC can be called... Death of a Spaceman.