Why are we being robbed of grade 5 in the engineering conversion for no reason?

[Stealthie]

You never said engineering was ideal, but the conversion to the new system, couldnt be more fair. Make up your mind.

You know it's not a binary condition, right?
It's entirely possible for something to be as fair as it can be without being perfect.

In this case, I suspect it would be almost impossible to find a way to quantify every existing mod and attempt to figure out where it fits into the new hierarchy accurately.
That being the case, taking each mod and making it the top of the previous tier seems pretty reasonable, while also encouraging players to make use of the new system.

I find it bizarre that people who've willingly spend hundreds of hours obtaining mod's are suddenly getting so stroppy at the prospect of having to re-do half a dozen rolls - especially given how easy this will be with the mat-trader. [blah]

 

[Maro-Val]

You know it's not a binary condition, right?
It's entirely possible for something to be as fair as it can be without being perfect.

In this case, I suspect it would be almost impossible to find a way to quantify every existing mod and attempt to figure out where it fits into the new hierarchy accurately.
That being the case, taking each mod and making it the top of the previous tier seems pretty reasonable, while also encouraging players to make use of the new system.

I find it bizarre that people who've willingly spend hundreds of hours obtaining mod's are suddenly getting so stroppy at the prospect of having to re-do half a dozen rolls - especially given how easy this will be with the mat-trader. [blah]

Half a dozen rolls?

Theres another one that hits the top three.

 

[Stealthie]

Half a dozen rolls?

Meh.

Even if it takes 20 rolls to surpass what you already have, that's small potatoes compared to what you probably had to do to get what you already have.
Conversely, if you got a god-roll almost immediately why are you whining that "all your effort is being erased"?

You've probably spent longer moaning in this thread than it would have taken to improve an existing module using the new system.

 

[ColonelJack71]

Puberty seems to be really kicking in in the Devari and Maro-Val households. Gotta feel for the parents that have to put up with them.

 

[CMDR ANCALAGON]

Congrats, fdev. I'll no longer publicly admit to playing your game. And future financial support us highly unlikely. If you to treat your players in this vile a manner, you frankly don't deserve to have any.

Now there's a man with convictions!

"I'm so upset that I'll still play, and I might even keep buying stuff, but no one (except for all of those on these forums) will know! So there! Feel my wrath!"

lulz

 

[Kaltern]

Mods? I'd politely suggest this thread has run its course

 

[Heater]

Have not read the whole thread, but in short it's what FD thinks is game play, i.e. lets have them run all over the place picking up more mat's etc and then they re-roll their upgrades again and them they can find even more mats to re-do the special effects again.

To be honest, I have not played much sense Dec, last year, took a look at the BETA but from what i have seen so far, not sure i will be playing much anymore, it was fun while it lasted, but just not looking forward to more of the same. I hope the release proves me wrong, and I hope most of the issues that reported in the beta will be sorted out, but the track record is not good.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

You never said engineering was ideal, but the conversion to the new system, couldnt be more fair. Make up your mind.

"While everyone else in my small perfect bubble, gets on.."

There.. fixed it for you. Next time speak for yourself.

If you want to see the entirely optional conversion as the whole of the engineering update and lump everyone else into black and white containers based on whether they agree with you, that's your call.

Don't expect a lot of sympathy.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Now there's a man with convictions!

"I'm so upset that I'll still play, and I might even keep buying stuff, but no one (except for all of those on these forums) will know! So there! Feel my wrath!"

lulz

That and hes using the EA trope to dismiss what Frontier is doing because he doesnt like it.

Pathetic really that people are so easily wound up by a fracking game.

 

[MarkAusten]

That and hes using the EA trope to dismiss what Frontier is doing because he doesnt like it.

Pathetic really that people are so easily wound up by a fracking game.

I think he might have been being sarcastic. At least, that's how I read his post.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

. For the rest of my answer since you also have all those ships and claim to have them all G5, see above.

I will in fact end up doing far fewer rolls, easily, and I'll get much better results.
That part is a no brainer.
As it stands now, I could do thousands of rolls, per ship, and never see DD5s over 140%.

That doesn't change if I have a fleet of Sidewinders or Cutters.

I also don't need or want to re-roll all of my modules; mainly just FSDs, DD5s, PDs and some weapons.

All this crying is ridiculous.

I can also justify a fleet of combat ships now too, instead of trying to share the good modules between ships.
That's the biggest advantage for me; more ships!

 

[Blackcompany]

Now there's a man with convictions!

"I'm so upset that I'll still play, and I might even keep buying stuff, but no one (except for all of those on these forums) will know! So there! Feel my wrath!"

lulz

Except...I'm neither playing at this point, nor buying stuff. Because neither the game (what there is of it) or the design direction, deserve Support.

 

[Eymerich]

I will in fact end up doing far fewer rolls, easily, and I'll get much better results.
That part is a no brainer.
As it stands now, I could do thousands of rolls, per ship, and never see DD5s over 140%.

That doesn't change if I have a fleet of Sidewinders or Cutters.

I also don't need or want to re-roll all of my modules; mainly just FSDs, DD5s, PDs and some weapons.

All this crying is ridiculous.

I can also justify a fleet of combat ships now too, instead of trying to share the good modules between ships.
That's the biggest advantage for me; more ships!

well you know: only for a little time cry people with little time to waste...

 

[Tarman]

Except...I'm neither playing at this point, nor buying stuff. Because neither the game (what there is of it) or the design direction, deserve Support.

Maybe then you should go find something you actually enjoy, and spend countless hours discussing that instead. Being here seems like a waste of your precious time.

 

[Devari]

Ah, so much butthurt and such sweet salt...

How is this thread any different from those associated with every other MMO in history that rebalanced, nerfed or even just outright deleted "stuff they did wrong and had to rework later"

Sorry, Mr I-did-the-grind-to-90th-level wizard, your "orb of godlike invincibility" is now a "bottle of rainbow unicorn-farts" and does nothing but unaggro you for three seconds and it only holds 3 of them.

The first problem with that idea is that FD already "rebalanced" Engineers several times, including nerfing the power level of the mods dramatically. At the time when they were dramatically nerfing everyone's mods they claimed that the dps was "too high" and it wasn't good for game balance. They finally achieved some sort of reasonable gameplay balance with Engineers over the past 2 years, now it's thrown completely out the airlock. What was the point of going through all of those buff/nerf cycles to achieve what FD claimed was "game balance" just to suddenly add another 10-15% onto all the mods with 3.0? Don't they expect exactly the same problems to happen again, probably even worse since the disparity between an unengineered and fully Engineered ship is even greater?

The other major issue here is that FD isn't adding any new "content" or "gameplay". It's just more of the same grind. Other games that introduce level caps at least add a significant amount of new game content to play along with the increased power level. Games that don't do this lose significant numbers of players because the expectation is that there should be something that advances the gameplay in a meaningful way. FD isn't doing any of that. They're just moving the goalposts again for Engineering blueprints and expecting everyone to grind all their mods again, regardless of how much of those same activities we've already been doing over the past 2 years.

 

[Devari]

What it sounds like to me, is those who spent a lot of time getting the best possible modules (and for some, this took a remarkably short amount of time due to it being very RNG), telling everyone that they deserve to still have the best possible modules becuase they already have them.

That's actually not what anyone is saying. Players who have put in large amount of work over the past 2 years shouldn't have to repeat exactly the same Engineering activities in 3.0 when FD could simply convert the existing modules in a reasonable manner.

I find it amusing how hard certain people try to distort the argument that is being made. FD is expecting players who have already made hundreds of rolls to repeat that same processes all over again for potentially 10 or 20 Engineered ships when they could simply convert those modules properly into the new system. The idea of a "level cap increase" or making players re-roll modules to remain competitive was NEVER something that FD said we would need to do when 3.0 content was discussed. It was something that FD implemented suddenly with 3.0 beta 2. If anything they told us exactly the opposite, that the best mods would be worth keeping in the new system. That is clearly not true with the system they're currently implementing so either FD wasn't being honest and intended for players to repeat the grind regardless (and only told us about this in the middle of beta) or they need to convert existing modules properly to respect the work players have already put into the Engineering grind.

 

[Stealthie]

That's actually not what anyone is saying. Players who have put in large amount of work over the past 2 years shouldn't have to repeat exactly the same Engineering activities in 3.0 when FD could simply convert the existing modules in a reasonable manner.

Why not?

If you were prepared to spend, say, an extra 50 hours striving for something which is 10% better than what most people have, why is is such a show-stopper to have to put in another couple of hours to achieve an even bigger benefit?

 

[DaveB]

The first problem with that idea is that FD already "rebalanced" Engineers several times, including nerfing the power level of the mods dramatically. At the time when they were dramatically nerfing everyone's mods they claimed that the dps was "too high" and it wasn't good for game balance. They finally achieved some sort of reasonable gameplay balance with Engineers over the past 2 years, now it's thrown completely out the airlock. What was the point of going through all of those buff/nerf cycles to achieve what FD claimed was "game balance" just to suddenly add another 10-15% onto all the mods with 3.0? Don't they expect exactly the same problems to happen again, probably even worse since the disparity between an unengineered and fully Engineered ship is even greater?

The other major issue here is that FD isn't adding any new "content" or "gameplay". It's just more of the same grind. Other games that introduce level caps at least add a significant amount of new game content to play along with the increased power level. Games that don't do this lose significant numbers of players because the expectation is that there should be something that advances the gameplay in a meaningful way. FD isn't doing any of that. They're just moving the goalposts again for Engineering blueprints and expecting everyone to grind all their mods again, regardless of how much of those same activities we've already been doing over the past 2 years.

And your point is?

They decided it needed doing, so they are doing it.

I used to have a certain amount of sympathy with folks that bought in to "the grind and the meta" even though it isn't my play style and they had to have known what they were setting themselves up for. But they've gone from making actual cogent arguments all the way down to being rattle-tossing whiny babies. So instead of telling them they'll be missed when they flounce - and meaning it - I now have a totally different reaction. They can sod off. They can take their overblown sense of entitlement the heck out of my sky. I'll keep playing this game, by this games rules, in my way - which seems to work and not be subject to damage from FDs efforts to bring it closer to their vision of how it should be. And those folks that pitch such monstrous hissy-fits and storm out of the game, well, I don't even want their stuff. I just want 'em gone and for them to shut up.

And if the forum mods were to introduce a policy like exists in several other online venues that "Goodbye Cruel World" posts and other drama-flounces were to be grounds for a permaban, I would stand up and applaud.

 

[Red Anders]

That's actually not what anyone is saying. Players who have put in large amount of work over the past 2 years shouldn't have to repeat exactly the same Engineering activities in 3.0 when FD could simply convert the existing modules in a reasonable manner.

FD is expecting players who have already made hundreds of rolls to repeat that same processes all over again for potentially 10 or 20 Engineered ships when they could simply convert those modules properly into the new system. The idea of a "level cap increase" or making players re-roll modules to remain competitive was NEVER something that FD said we would need to do when 3.0 content was discussed. It was something that FD implemented suddenly with 3.0 beta 2.

1 December 2017:

A lot of you will already have engineered items. We will “grandfather” these. This means you can still use them, their statistics and effects won’t be changed.
However, if you want to apply further upgrades to them, they will have to be converted. Conversion will place them at the top of the previous rank (so a rank 4 upgrade would become maxed rank 3 upgrade) and would change all statistics and effects to represent the new blueprint.

In general, we will try to make sure that the new blueprints can max out slightly better than the old system (we want to encourage conversion).

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...UTURE?p=6177830&highlight=modules#post6177830

So, that says:

• New blueprints will have higher maximum values than old ones
• Old modules will be grandfathered (which by definition means their stats cannot possibly be as high as a maxed-out new mod because new mods have higher maximum values than old mods)
• If old mods are converted they will become a grade lower in the new system (which by definition means their stats cannot possibly be as high as a maxed-out new mod because new mods have higher maximum values than old mods and you've dropped a grade)

That's exactly what we've got. I actually said at the time (and I wasn't alone) that whatever we ended up with, it wouldn't stray far from Sandy's initial vision as laid out in that thread.

The first 3.0 beta wasn't released until 25 January 2018, so roughly two months after that post.

The issue of whether players should or shouldn't have to do any more engineering is opinion and you're as entitled to yours as I am to mine.

However suggesting this was some bolt from the blue is just wrong. It is blatantly obvious from Sandy's comment in December that the plan at that time would require further engineering to remain at the top of the pile because there are only three options in it for players with existing grade 5 mods. One is convert them, which mean they need more engineering because all conversions drop you a grade. One is keep your mods as they are, no engineering needed but they can't possibly be as good as a maxed-out new mod. The third is make new modules from scratch, which needs engineering. There was never an option included in his suggestion that would not have required more engineering and that did not change.

Of course if you really did put me on ignore you won't be able to see that.

 

[ColonelJack71]

Ha! They're just facts - you can prove anything you want with facts...