External View [A definitive discussion]

[Vasea Azure]

I gave the neg rep because dozens of time in this discussion people for unknown reason associate external views with some "console arcade" stuff.
On the other hand I can assure you that external views wont hurt the complexity of the Elite and are present and used widely in sophisticated PC simulators and helps (in my opinion) increase player immersion.

 

[Phier]

I gave the neg rep because dozens of time in this discussion people for unknown reason associate external views with some "console arcade" stuff.
On the other hand I can assure you that external views wont hurt the complexity of the Elite and are present and used widely in sophisticated PC simulators and helps (in my opinion) increase player immersion.

If you can't figure out why an external view is arcade stuff and give negative rep for my opinion its arcade stuff, its a school day for you.

 

[Vasea Azure]

If you can't figure out why an external view is arcade stuff and give negative rep for my opinion its arcade stuff, its a school day for you.

I guess so.

 

[Amaze]

I would love the ability to record my play and then watch it back with cam controls to make movies.
Anyone that has played IL2 would know what I am talking about.

Those "movie making" external views are NOT arcade views.
I don't think many of us want to fly in a 3d person chase cam view with full working HUD. That would be arcade but I'm not seeing people asking for that.

 

[WeirdWizard]

If you can't figure out why an external view is arcade stuff and give negative rep for my opinion its arcade stuff, its a school day for you.

Its not your opinions that's getting you negative rep its the way you present them and attempt to belittle people of a differing opinion.

 

[almostpilot]

I would love the ability to record my play and then watch it back with cam controls to make movies.
Anyone that has played IL2 would know what I am talking about.

Those "movie making" external views are NOT arcade views.
I don't think many of us want to fly in a 3d person chase cam view with full working HUD. That would be arcade but I'm not seeing people asking for that.

Exactly!

but still, at least for me, I do not see a problem with being arcade if it is only an option. If you do not want it, do not use it.

 

[Phier]

Exactly!

but still, at least for me, I do not see a problem with being arcade if it is only an option. If you do not want it, do not use it.

Do I really have to explain to you how an external view gives an advantage in pvp? If you make it a viable option you basically force everyone to play in external view or purposefully gimp themselves. So no no no no no no no. Movie making fine, but any external view should be completely unplayable if it were to be in game.

 

[lemny]

I didn't read all the posts and i think it has been already suggested, but i would like to see a external view in a way like eva or a repair drone.
So we will not have an advantage in combat and the immersion would not be compromised.

 

[almostpilot]

Do I really have to explain to you how an external view gives an advantage in pvp? If you make it a viable option you basically force everyone to play in external view or purposefully gimp themselves. So no no no no no no no. Movie making fine, but any external view should be completely unplayable if it were to be in game.

And who tells you that ED is ONLY A PVP GAME?

We have a SOLO mode option, do not we?

But...

If people pee their pants in fear of the dreadful external view of you own ship while in flight, limit it to solo mode"

 

[JackCat]

I want both an external vanity view and more internal viewpoints. And if the pvp complainers think it such a terrible horror: I would gladly volunteer to switch to playing solo mode only all the time just to get them.

 

[Bambi]

You're confusing the definition of immersion as something that is absolute, and not something personal to an individual.

Consistent, animated first person view that never falters? Like when you go into the system map, or the galaxy map, or outfitting screens? Like that you mean?

You can't just change definitions as you like. Definitions of words are in fact not "individual", or language would break down.
Immersion as used for games very clearly and simply means qualities of a game that draws you in and makes you feel like you are there. Many different things can add to a feeling of immersion. I said "one of the best ways" not "the only way", which has been proven by many first person and simulator games that are considered to be immersive.

Good sound can be immersive, good graphics can be immersive, small details that make the world seem real can be immersive. But what I was talking about was cockpit immersion. What that simply means is that you are immersed into the cockpit at all times. The map screens are simply displays that you as the pilot see within the cockpit, rendered separately for performance. The same could easily be said of outfitting. It's detailed, well designed, animated and responsive. You can look down and see your character manipulate the controls. And you never leave. So you feel immersed into the cockpit.

Not a hard concept.

 

[Amaze]

Do I really have to explain to you how an external view gives an advantage in pvp? If you make it a viable option you basically force everyone to play in external view or purposefully gimp themselves. So no no no no no no no. Movie making fine, but any external view should be completely unplayable if it were to be in game.

Well if its fear of pvp advantage I would be ok if 3d person/chase cam was only alloyed in Solo.
I see no reason not to allow people who want it to have it as an option, at least in single player.
For myself I want a pannable rotating view for screen shots and movies.

I still don't see how having a 3d person view without hud could give anyone an advantage though.

Maybe we should force people with head tracking or rift, to only play in solo too?
They for sure have an advantage, most flight sims have a cockpit padlock view for people without trackir.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Since I am getting negative rep for my opinion on this subject, what are you, special? You are outside of your ship being you are in a station. Use your head mate.

The fact that people are so upset with this and willing to give negative rep for my take on it, makes me think it wasn't long ago they were bothering adults on xbox live about their opponents mothers sex lives

From the angles you can see your ship in the outfitting screens, you'd have to be at least 4 meter tall for the smaller ships (waaaaaay more for the bigger ones), or be able to fly. Head used, mate. Your turn.

Do I really have to explain to you how an external view gives an advantage in pvp? If you make it a viable option you basically force everyone to play in external view or purposefully gimp themselves. So no no no no no no no. Movie making fine, but any external view should be completely unplayable if it were to be in game.

Yessss please explain to us for the Idontknowhowmanytimesalready in this thread the same flawed argument about external camera giving an edge in PvP, so we can tear it appart once again in one of the many variations of the same answer ("no, external view does not give any edge in a PvP fight.").

You obviously don't play real sims that much, don't you? Otherwise you'd avoid stepping on that terrain the way you do

 

[almostpilot]

You can't just change definitions as you like. Definitions of words are in fact not "individual", or language would break down.
Immersion as used for games very clearly and simply means qualities of a game that draws you in and makes you feel like you are there. Many different things can add to a feeling of immersion. I said "one of the best ways" not "the only way", which has been proven by many first person and simulator games that are considered to be immersive.

Good sound can be immersive, good graphics can be immersive, small details that make the world seem real can be immersive. But what I was talking about was cockpit immersion. What that simply means is that you are immersed into the cockpit at all times. The map screens are simply displays that you as the pilot see within the cockpit, rendered separately for performance. The same could easily be said of outfitting. It's detailed, well designed, animated and responsive. You can look down and see your character manipulate the controls. And you never leave. So you feel immersed into the cockpit.

Not a hard concept.

For me playing with cockipt vision does not bring any immersion. I continue sitting in a chair playing the game.

Immersion in the game for me would be to have the external view of my ship flying in space.

That simple. Immersion is relative and not absolute as he said. Not a hard concept, don´t you think?

 

[Bambi]

Immersion in the game for me would be to have the external view of my ship flying in space.
That simple. Immersion is relative and not absolute as he said. not a hard concept, don´t you think?

Immersion is not "something you like about the game". You can't just say something is immersive to be contrarian. That is a fallacy.
Third person view might be nice but it goes against the definition of immersion, unless you feel immersed in being a cameraman flying through space behind a remote controlled ship.

 

[almostpilot]

Immersion is not "something you like about the game". You can't just say something is immersive to be contrarian. That is a fallacy.
Third person view might be nice but it goes against the definition of immersion, unless you feel immersed in being a cameraman flying through space behind a remote controlled ship.

In your way of think only, or like some others.

But many others don´t see immersion in that way?

Remains relative, not absolute, but I think you do not understand: yet.

 

[Bambi]

But many others don´t see immersion in that way?

Remains relative, not absolute, but I think you do not understand: yet.

You're free to create some new language where immersion means whatever you think it does. But don't muddy the discussion we're having in english where people have used that word for years and it has a definite meaning separate from how "some people see it".

It's very disingenuous to claim that a word means something other than what it does just to try and "win" an argument. You can enjoy third person view without it being immersive, there are other reasons for features in a game to be good than immersion. You could argue from that position, that you don't care about the immersion and want it anyway because it would be fun to you. But no, you have to be 100% perfect and every positive adjective that anyone could possibly add to the game must mean something that you, personally, like.

Ridiculous.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Third person view might be nice but it goes against the definition of immersion, unless you feel immersed in being a cameraman flying through space behind a remote controlled ship.

Does it? You really can't think of any game using an external camera or 3rd person view that you felt pretty immersed into? I certainly can. As well as I can cite a huge pile of first person POV based games that were not immersive at all. So it does not come to that. Believe what they say: immersion is a very subjective notion.

Edit: a definition taken on the net:

Immersion

1: the act of putting someone or something completely in a liquid or the state of being completely in a liquid

2: complete involvement in some activity or interest

3: a method of learning a foreign language by being taught entirely in that language

I think we are looking for number 2. It's pretty loose, he?

 

[Vasea Azure]

Movie making fine, but any external view should be completely unplayable if it were to be in game.

I agree completlety with you on this one and this is what most of us asking in here.

 

[Bambi]

Does it? You really can't think of any game using an external camera or 3rd person view that you felt pretty immersed into? I certainly can. As well as I can cite a huge pile of first person POV based games that were not immersive at all. So it does not come to that. Believe what they say: immersion is a very subjective notion.

There are many other factors that can create immersion. What we're talking about isn't those factors, but the immersion that specifically the cockpit brings. Poorly done first person can be unimmersive too, that is correct. But the cockpit is not poorly done.

Why must you insist on changing the definition and premise of the discussion instead of engaging in it from your own perspective?