External View [A definitive discussion]

[nats]

Where did anyone suggest removing first person? Example: SWG JTL.

As soon as you make a game playable in 3rd person a lot needs to be dumbed down because you cannot clutter the screens with instrumentation. Things like shooting markers, ammo counters, simplistic engine controls, target tracking, all need to be implemented to make combat in 3rd person possible at all.

Its just not going to happen here thank god so there no point in discussing that any further.

But external views provided for pure aesthetic use is a whole different thing to that. Falcon 4, one of the most advanced flight sims ever made, has loads of external views and I love using them to look around my plane, but I have never ever felt any desire to try to use them for combat. same goes for all of the other 100 or so flight and space sims I have played over the years. This is the first sim I have played that doesnt feature external views.

Even Space Shuttle Mission Simulator 2007 has external views and anyone who has been to that games forum will know how serious those devs are about absolute realism! Call that a 'game' and you get shouted out of there!

 

[Darian]

My problem is that right now the cockpit design matters more to me than how the ship i do not see does look like.
Maybe they should not sell ship skins but nicer cockpit designs...
Regarding dog fights and 3rd view, if it has no hud it is pointless, and i do not see how it would increase chances without the ability to see instruments (and i give a flying something about pvp anyways so there)
another thing is cams attached to the ship, for me it is more immersion breaking that i do have to rely on an crappy holo to land my ship, an window popping up on my hud with an down looking cam (or one angeling at the landing pad) with holo guides, that would make docking worth to do manual, for now i use the docking computer for the simple reason that docking has become such an boring thing to do i rather read forum.

So for immersion sake i want cameras attached to my ship that allow me to look back up down left and right (or rotate with the ship as center) because dumb 21st century cars ALREADY HAVE THAT AND WE DO PLAY AN SCIENCE FICTION GAME.

Make third view an camera drone that does not take an slot on the ship but you risk it exploding in fight and you need to buy a new one for half a million, that should make it less desirable to use or put an certain ammout of cost on using it to get an advantage out of it, even if i do not see one really (or do not care about pvp so pointless for me anyways.

Really, Frontier boasts to be as scientific as possible and then the future is an magic place where people forgot how to bold cameras onto vehicles (or build camera drones?)

Immersion? There is in my eyes less of immersion without them.
(and do not get me startet with docking computers that weight four (4) tons. that is more than an Cray and one of theese could pilot the space shuttle.
If it takes an slot (or has to) then put it on an utility point claiming you need extra sensors or what ever, but please get away from telling me computers in the future bead eniac in size to do the job an todays smart phone can do.

And the power distribution, i ferry each day thousand of tons of super conducters but an A7 systhem weights 40 tones?
Do they make them out of copper????????

really, before 3rd view becomes immersion breaking there needs to be done away with lot of very immersion breaking things right now.

And for all that is holy, give me an display of tons fuel left, that stupid bar is so no help gauging exact fuel remaining.

 

[Driver]

External cam DOES NOT = arcade. By this logic FXS DCs and all other flight sims would be arcade games

If you use an external view in a DCS game for any kind of game play, then you've lowered it to the arcade game level.

 

[almostpilot]

Every space sim that puts you in a cockipt and you go out shooting like being in a fighter jet, is not realistic, so do not see why stop having outside view of his own ship while in flight would break the pseudo "immersion".

If you use an external view in a DCS game for any kind of game play, then you've lowered it to the arcade game level.

ED today already is in the arcade level. How many ships you already saw flying in the real space, which are the same that you see in the ED? And flying in space as they fly in the ED game?

 

[Zene Ren]

+1 for simple non combat view in space

 

[Bambi]

I think the cockpit view is so well done it would be a bit of a disservice to have an external view.

Although I wouldn't be opposed to a few external camera feeds from cameras attached to the hull, like a rear view cam.

 

[almostpilot]

I think the cockpit view is so well done it would be a bit of a disservice to have an external view.

Although I wouldn't be opposed to a few external camera feeds from cameras attached to the hull, like a rear view cam.

It is to be optional, if you do not want do not use.

 

[Bambi]

It is to be optional, if you do not want do not use.

That's not really a reasonable argument. Imagine if you could have an anaconda for free at the push of a button, you are free to use the old way of getting it of course, it's completely optional, just don't push the button. Why limit anyone who wants to use the button? It's just an OPTION.

 

[almostpilot]

That's not really a reasonable argument. Imagine if you could have an anaconda for free at the push of a button, you are free to use the old way of getting it of course, it's completely optional, just don't push the button. Why limit anyone who wants to use the button? It's just an OPTION.

I'm talking about the outside view while in flight as an option to enjoy your ship, take some screenshots and not to gain advantage in the game.

But if you have fear, it can be limited to only SOLO mode.There are many ideas about it mentioned in this topic

People who care about the issue of "advantage" is because they see ED only as a PVP game, where it clearly not is.

 

[Bambi]

I'm talking about the outside view while in flight as an option to enjoy your ship, take some screenshots and not to gain advantage in the game.

But if you have fear, it can be limited to only SOLO mode.There are many ideas about it mentioned in this topic

What I'm saying is, they went for the complete cockpit immersion, and they pulled it off. It's almost part of the style now. You think adding a third person mode to any given first person game wouldn't change the gamefeel a lot?

 

[almostpilot]

What I'm saying is, they went for the complete cockpit immersion, and they pulled it off. It's almost part of the style now. You think adding a third person mode to any given first person game wouldn't change the gamefeel a lot?

I post this one page behind and i write about it every time someone talks about "immersion" in a GAME. Especially space games. If you really want immersion ina space game go play orbiter. And Yes they have a external view too.

"Every space sim that puts you in a cockipt and you go out shooting like being in a fighter jet, is not realistic, so do not see why stop having outside view of his own ship while in flight would break the pseudo "immersion"."

 

[Driver]

Every space sim that puts you in a cockipt and you go out shooting like being in a fighter jet, is not realistic, so do not see why stop having outside view of his own ship while in flight would break the pseudo "immersion".

If you use an external view in a DCS game for any kind of game play, then you've lowered it to the arcade game level.

ED today already is in the arcade level. How many ships you already saw flying in the real space, which are the same that you see in the ED? And flying in space as they fly in the ED game?

How can you say what is or isn't realistic within ED? The developers designed the game, the setting, and the technologies; they determined what is "realistic". As for the Real World, how can any of us know what technology will exit in 3300AD?

My point that using an external view to play a DCS simulator game lowers it to that of an arcade game is 100% valid.

Playing a game like ED, or Star Citizen with an external view is pretty much like playing Galaga.

Sandro has already gone on record saying that the developers are looking in to a limited external view. I am sure that they will get it right.

 

[Bambi]

I post this one page behind and i write about it every time someone talks about "immersion" in a GAME. Especially space games. If you really want immersion ina space game go play orbiter. And Yes they have a external view too.

"Every space sim that puts you in a cockipt and you go out shooting like being in a fighter jet, is not realistic, so do not see why stop having outside view of his own ship while in flight would break the pseudo "immersion"."

You're confusing immersion with realism. Orbiter is very realistic, but not particularly immersive. Conversely, a game like Far Cry is very immersive, but not particularly realistic.

And one of the best ways to add immersion is to have a consistent, animated first person view that never falters. So you never feel disconnected from your pilot, ever.

 

[MrVibrating]

'Immersion' here means being engaging - capturing the imagination, indulging and complying with our internal narratives. And especially in the current absence of FPS avatars, being 'connected' to our ships - right now, a ship is all we are.

I play GTA in first person, but being able to switch to third makes the game more engaging, heightening immersion - along with cinematic cams, replays etc. Ditto for all my other 3D games - Arma, rFactor, Assetto Corsa etc.

If 3rd person didn't have this effect for me, i wouldn't use it.

If restricting player choice was immersive, Elite would've been forgotten by 1986..

 

[Armour]

I love this thread. Frontier please don't ever put in an external view, just so this Groundhog Day of threadnoughts can continue! I want to find out how many ways people can express the same 4 thoughts ("Skins", "Selfies", "Youtube", "Other Game"), and how angry they can get whilst doing so. Keep it going guys!

 

[maxcorwyn]

It was mentioned before, but how on earth could a 3rd person view be of any advantage in combat?
It's not a shooter where you can tilt the camera to look behind walls and stuff.

And about your immersion. You don't like it - you don't use it.
Are you so weak that you can't resist using it, even if it's optional?

Seriously..

Sometimes I wonder if those nay-sayers here just want this game to remain in eternal stagnation, with no further development whatsoever.

 

[Armour]

It was mentioned before

(Post #2682 - yeah, I guess it might have been, just a few times.)

, but how on earth could a 3rd person view be of any advantage in combat?
It's not a shooter where you can tilt the camera to look behind walls and stuff.

Ok, I'll bite. Why not?
Cockpit visibility (or lack of it) is part of each ship's individual limitations by design. It's the same as how some ships have more cargo space, some are more agile, some have more hardpoints, etc. It's a question of balance. An external combat view would remove (or at least considerably loosen) those limitations and affect that balance.

And about your immersion. You don't like it - you don't use it.
Are you so weak that you can't resist using it, even if it's optional?

Poor trolling with the weakness thing, but okay. Let's hypothesise, seeing as this is all fictitious musing anyway. Imagine the devs add a magic kill ray to your ship. One shot kill, every time, no cooldown period. Now you don't have to use it, but how many people would refrain? I would wager a vanishingly small percentage of the (weak) player base.

Seriously..

Sometimes I wonder if those nay-sayers here just want this game to remain in eternal stagnation, with no further development whatsoever.

Yup, that's it. I personally just want the game to remain as is, and for the devs to go home; just shut up shop guys! No to EVAs, no to planetary landings, no to player-submitted jobs, no to any of the tens of things I have personally suggested in various threads. All my ambitions for the game's evolution were lies. I want this game to be hermetically sealed.

That's not an idiotic thing to say at all, is it?

 

[maxcorwyn]

Cockpit visibility (or lack of it) is part of each ship's individual limitations by design. It's the same as how some ships have more cargo space, some are more agile, some have more hardpoints, etc. It's a question of balance. An external combat view would remove (or at least considerably loosen) those limitations and affect that balance.

Sounds more like it would affect some subjective feelings than effective gameplay balance.

Poor trolling with the weakness thing, but okay. Let's hypothesise, seeing as this is all fictitious musing anyway. Imagine the devs add a magic kill ray to your ship. One shot kill, every time, no cooldown period. Now you don't have to use it, but how many people would refrain? I would wager a vanishingly small percentage of the (weak) player base.

Not talking about killing rays here. It's just about a harmless external view. Which, by the way, every flight simulator has integrated.

Yup, that's it. I personally just want the game to remain as is, and for the devs to go home; just shut up shop guys! No to EVAs, no to planetary landings, no to player-submitted jobs, no to any of the tens of things I have personally suggested in various threads. All my ambitions for the game's evolution were lies. I want this game to be hermetically sealed.

Yeah, I somehow feared that. Sad.. Just kidding

 

[Marikc0]

The poll isn't broken. You're just mad that people don't want this.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

The poll isn't broken. You're just mad that people don't want this.

Let's try this, shall we? A simple poll: external view: yes/no. Nothing more.
This won't be broken.

I love this thread. Frontier please don't ever put in an external view, just so this Groundhog Day of threadnoughts can continue! I want to find out how many ways people can express the same 4 thoughts ("Skins", "Selfies", "Youtube", "Other Game"), and how angry they can get whilst doing so. Keep it going guys!

That's still more diversified and consistent than the one thought ("because PvP") the nay sayers keep pushing forward. Especially when the lack of multiplayer interaction is what people are moaning about

Really, there are *no* arguments the cons have advanced so far that were not destroyed in (as you said) a multitud of variations. The thread is still there only as a reminder that many, many people want an external camera.