The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Cosmo]

Hear hear! Eggtastico sums up the deep long-term goals that guilds, player owned stations and systems will add to Elite:

I think where guilds will help, is actually finding a group of players with the same ideas & goals.
its all very well having group play, but your kind of limited in finding players to play with - or the same people on a consistent basis.

It would be start.
Also, building space stations would be cool. A proper 'Community Goal' for that guild. If it says you needed X resources, then off everyone goes collecting like ants.
Obviously some of them rare items are needed that can only be got by mining or stealing or be lucky enough to find.
There would be stages of progression, so it would be relatively easy to build a basic station (maybe something that would translate in to 250 hours if a single person tried!) - but a lot harder to get outfitters, trade merchant, shipyard, etc. to your station. IE this could be done in Tiers & viewable similar to how a CG is currently done.
Dont forget, these items would need to be donated - so if you go off & buy 100 tons of gold, then its a money sink. If upkeep is not kept, then the station declines & may reduce a level. Any credits collected are not for re-distributing. IE it is not a way to get rich!

You may even want to start with needing a certain Ship that is built from there & can only accept medium docking bays. Large docking bays could come later at a different Tier Level.
This comes in line with upkeep money sink. However, these can be offset by trading goods, outfitting, new ship purchases at the guild station.

Each guild place could have a RES for PvP combat. Guilds could wage war on each other - but keep it purely for fun. I would hesitate on introducing a player driven economy where guilds can make credits.
Thats been done rather successfully with EVE - and this is a different game to eve. However, nothing in game should be unreachable to the non guilded person who likes to play alone, compared to a person in a guild.

I think similar to Powerplay, guild systems can be claimed and conquered. There's an abundance of unused, empty systems waiting to be exploited by guilds. Only a small fraction of the galaxy will ever be claimed.

The downside is that a large guild can easily beat a small guild in that scenario - doesn't matter if its in Solo or Open play. Think about the frustration members of a small guild will suffer if they build a station only to loose it to a big guild that did nothing to build that station and just used missions an PvP to get control of that station.

Small guilds can form an alliance against bigger guilds. Eventually it balances out. There could be some protection by major factions for small guilds depending on their proximity.

 

[trollson]

69 pages? TL;DR

Some arguments against guilds are based on bad experiences in other games. However, those should represent lessons learned such that the same mistakes are not made in any implementation in ED.

Player guilds could manifest themselves as Minor Factions in Elite, follow the same rules, but with the respective players calling the shots. This would be far more "power play" than the current chicken-racing version...

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

However, those should represent lessons learned such that the same mistakes are not made in any implementation in ED.

part of my point got swamped in the megathread however imo we have ALREADY seen the downsides of guilds and how even what we have now is already a problem for the lone wolf.

We have already seen a number of players blindly opening fire on any other player either in an opposing PP faction (which is consistent with the "new lore" (whether this is a step in the wrong direction or not for Elite is another topic for another thread), but the thing which 100% confirms to me why guilds are a disaster for open play for the Lone Wolf - a role which is imo central to Elite, are the players who are blindly and without warning opening fire on CMRS who want no part in PP and are not pledged to anyone.

this is living undeniable proof imo that if we get guilds a certain subset of players will try to block of parts of the game in open unless you join their gang and do what you are told. This is imo not the kind of game ED was sold to me. YES I know I can play in private - infact even now i often do! - but imo the goal is to try to make open MORE attractive not less attractive to those playing out of it. (without forcing or giving gamey perks). I think guilds will be the final nail in the coffin of open for many players.

 

[medwyn]

FDEV will see the poll, sure, and then - if they're in any way sensible and reasonable - will ask questions;

1) How does the number of voters compare with the average number of active players of the game?

2) Is that voter count in any way representative of the player base?

3) "Hey moderators, can you give us information on things like number of new or rarely-active forum accounts that voted in this poll"

4) From (3) can it be deduced there was forum brigading? Vote stuffing? Duplicate IP addresses (sock puppetry)?

5) Do the proposed and voted for suggestions go against the spirit of "Elite" ?

6) Do the proposed and voted for suggestions go against the ideas FDEV have for the game THEY want to play?

And from that range of questions will come to their own conclusions. Anything else on this forum is basically sometimes noise, sometimes signal.

Personally, I can only make assumptions on a couple of those questions, I can pretty much guess the answer accurately on some of the others, and I can pretty much predict what FDEV's conclusions will be - but I'll keep those thoughts to myself. The test of my own results will come with time.

The "I can pretty much guess or predict what FD wants"-magic is still around in this forums I wish even FD knew what they want and how...
It's another returning mantra since the very beginning that FD makes a game "THEY want to play".
I don't want to rain on your parade but FD is a business on the first place which has this "the way I want to play" very low on the priority list. (Or else I would have to assume they all have a PC, a Mac and an X-box at home, one of each and they are really keen on playing ED in all rooms in their houses on different platforms.)

I see how you claim to know a lot of things about "the spirit of Elite" and what "they" want and what not, but this attitude will require you more and more effort and energy to put in day after day if you want to sustain it

 

[CylonSurfer]

New missions are to be added, branching, further out etc. Not everything happens at once.

Should the "Basics" not have been fixed before stupid things like Power Play and some PvP mode were added to the game? The missions use a very outdated structure, are extremely boring and repetitive and should have been overhauled months ago. You can't even coop them - in an online game? Come off it.....

I think the priorities are very wrong sometimes. The things requested in this thread should have been part of the game from release as well, as well as other simple things like ship naming, adding custom decals etc etc

 

[jprelph]

I think similar to Powerplay, guild systems can be claimed and conquered. There's an abundance of unused, empty systems waiting to be exploited by guilds. Only a small fraction of the galaxy will ever be claimed.

Which means that the entire gameplay experience changes as there's no mixing between different types of players. Normal space empties of more involved players and PvP'ers as they move to "guild space" and there becomes a greater barrier of entry for new players or those who can't spend as much time playing. When I first started doing a bit of PvP it was great to have a few very experienced players to wing up with.

Small guilds can form an alliance against bigger guilds. Eventually it balances out. There could be some protection by major factions for small guilds depending on their proximity.

What if they can't form an alliance, or there isn't a way to form an alliance big enough to take on a particular guild? If history is anything to go by we would end up with some massive guilds (corporations/groups etc.) who are effectively untouchable except by another massive guild. They can basically rule by fiat over smaller guilds and individual players. If they declare a system off-limits to other players, or declare war on certain groups, what's to stop them except another massive guild? Playing the game becomes more-and-more content locked behind guild membership.

 

[S.H.A.D.O]

imo player owned stations etc belong in the X-series, not Elite. Frontier have said from the kickstarter days that the player wouldn't own stations and to change that now would represent a huge change of direction of the game and a bad one at that.

I am not against player owned stations in other games, I feel they fit in XBTF,X:Tension, X2,X3 very well but no, they wouldn't be right for Elite. This is Elite, lets not try to change it into something else please.

 

[Stigbob]

Which means that the entire gameplay experience changes as there's no mixing between different types of players. Normal space empties of more involved players and PvP'ers as they move to "guild space" and there becomes a greater barrier of entry for new players or those who can't spend as much time playing. When I first started doing a bit of PvP it was great to have a few very experienced players to wing up with.

What if they can't form an alliance, or there isn't a way to form an alliance big enough to take on a particular guild? If history is anything to go by we would end up with some massive guilds (corporations/groups etc.) who are effectively untouchable except by another massive guild. They can basically rule by fiat over smaller guilds and individual players. If they declare a system off-limits to other players, or declare war on certain groups, what's to stop them except another massive guild? Playing the game becomes more-and-more content locked behind guild membership.

Yep, and "Blaze your own trail" becomes go exactly where and do exactly what you are told. If guilds were less focused on controlling other players there might be a place for them, as it stands they'd be a game breaking inconvenience for independents.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Recurring questions from me that just doesn't get answered

So, your guild has spent all those resources towards your station, worked hard to get moduled up.

1. Can anyone enter your station?
2. Do you want to have influence over those modules? (Setting commodity prices and such)
3. Do you want your station to create revenue for the guild?

Reason I ask:

1. If the answer is No, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.
2. If the answer is Yes, you are affecting the economy, and thus the entire galaxy
3. If the answer is Yes, go play Eve. Kidding! If the answer is Yes, then the Station is not a money sink, but an investment which will increase the money to be sinked in time.

 

[Soliluna]

Thank you for addressing my concerns. I have grouped the desire of have Guilds with the ownership of Stations because, as some have said rather fervently, that is what so many 'players' voted for so that must be what the majority wants.
.
It seems the main concern is the lack of communications, I believe that is a separate issue as it effect all players, not just those in a guild.
.
But in my experiences, all it will take is one guild to decide that it wants what another guild has and it become a self perpetuating chest puffing exercise. And you know that some guilds, especially those migrating from other MMO's will take that aggressive stance. How long would it take before some hot heads in a guild decide that anyone wanting to use their station must pay a 'tax' to do so? How soon before a guild decides that the Nav Beacon for the system is part of 'their turf'.
.
The beauty of the game as it is now is every player is free to go where ever they want to. The only exceptions are those systems that need a pass, and they are readily achievable if you want them. I don't want to see large swathes the galaxy marked as no go zones by the majority of players because a small group decide that is theirs and theirs alone.

I voted yes because I don't really care for guilds but I would appreciate being able to save up tonnes of money to have my own personal, small outpost and hangar.

Why? Because I want one, I think it would be cool, even if only aesthetically. I wouldn't care if it allowed me to have my own instanced faction of people with a market and NPC traffic or whether it was simply my own hangar in space. It would be fun, cool - and I would definitely aim to get one.

Also - guilds do not create this mind in players, it exists within humanity itself. Players do this already as Ziggy has pointed out above.

 

[nosscar]

I do like the idea of guilds, i have played in other games with them.
But the way this game is made at it's core, it is just not designed for guilds, the p2p network, the different modes eg: solo, groups ect. I just cannot see how it could work.
A compromise may be possible with player hangers, and new player created skins, then if players wanted to guild up, they can choose a players hanger as a base, and all wear the same skins and logo.
But i think thats as far as it could go.

 

[tarragon]

Does this tie in to CQC? No. Forget it.

 

[Cmdr Corran Antilles]

Yep, and "Blaze your own trail" becomes go exactly where and do exactly what you are told. If guilds were less focused on controlling other players there might be a place for them, as it stands they'd be a game breaking inconvenience for independents.

I have never had a guild try and control me...not sure where you get that nonsense. When I have joined a guild and they had a mission they wanted to accomplish that was why I joined. I joined because they were doing what I wanted to do. You anti guild people have a lot of silly notions on what being in a guild is .none of those notions bear any resemblance to what a guild is.

All a guild is is a group of like minded people working together to do whatever goal they have. Having tools in the game that allow us to communicate better is not going to make us evil. Those who are abusive are already in the game and being abusive. Access to guild tools will not make them any worse. Access to guild tools would however make things safer for those who join guilds for protection from those abusive people.

 

[medwyn]

I do like the idea of guilds, i have played in other games with them.
But the way this game is made at it's core, it is just not designed for guilds, the p2p network, the different modes eg: solo, groups ect. I just cannot see how it could work.
A compromise may be possible with player hangers, and new player created skins, then if players wanted to guild up, they can choose a players hanger as a base, and all wear the same skins and logo.
But i think thats as far as it could go.

Unfortunately that is a reasonable review of how "great" ED's potential is making the 400 billion's space to a shallow puddle.

 

[Whiterose]

Unfortunately that is a reasonable review of how "great" ED's potential is making the 400 billion's space to a shallow puddle.

I am easily amused. I like jumping in puddles.

 

[Stigbob]

I have never had a guild try and control me...not sure where you get that nonsense. When I have joined a guild and they had a mission they wanted to accomplish that was why I joined. I joined because they were doing what I wanted to do. You anti guild people have a lot of silly notions on what being in a guild is .none of those notions bear any resemblance to what a guild is.

All a guild is is a group of like minded people working together to do whatever goal they have. Having tools in the game that allow us to communicate better is not going to make us evil. Those who are abusive are already in the game and being abusive. Access to guild tools will not make them any worse. Access to guild tools would however make things safer for those who join guilds for protection from those abusive people.

So you've no issues with non-aligned players entering guild systems and landing in guild stations then, and will the rest of your guild see it that way ?

 

[Hellhawk666]

Recurring questions from me that just doesn't get answered

OK, I'll bite

So, your guild has spent all those resources towards your station, worked hard to get moduled up.

Not sure what "moduled up" means in this context :S

1. Can anyone enter your station?
2. Do you want to have influence over those modules? (Setting commodity prices and such)
3. Do you want your station to create revenue for the guild?

Reason I ask:

1. If the answer is No, you are affecting other players. Keep this in mind.
2. If the answer is Yes, you are affecting the economy, and thus the entire galaxy
3. If the answer is Yes, go play Eve. Kidding! If the answer is Yes, then the Station is not a money sink, but an investment which will increase the money to be sinked in time.

1. Yes. In the idea I pitched (and which would be the same for several other suggested systems mentioned in this thread) the station is not yours - it belongs to the NPCs who built it, live there and conduct the day to day business. Also possibly to the major faction to whom they are allied. Your faction has simply risen to become the most influential player in the local area and as a result of this status you are offered, as a group, bonuses and discounts etc that are granted as % credit effects on your interaction with the station. Better purchase prices, more for exploration data, better bounties. In effect, the populace has got to know and trust (or fear) you and gives you special deals. It does not, however, effect anything whatsoever as far as players who are not members of your faction.

2. I presume you mean does the faction want to manage the selling prices of the equipment offered through outfitting? The answer is no. Again, your faction would not control the outfitting trades, but your faction members would receive a discount of, say, 1-10% on module purchases depending on their rank within your faction.

3. No. The station businesses manage their own affairs. The only benefit to the faction and its members is indirect through discounts etc, and the eventual ability to "suggest" the location for a new station to be built (a station which you would not own either).

The concept is the same as a CG (in fact, think of it as a private group CG that your group manages for itself as an ongoing project). The payout benefits would only be current while your faction has 51% or more influence over the station. Another player faction could replace you by working harder there on their missions, or an NPC minor faction could knock you from control if they were strongly backed by independent pilots performing their randomly generated missions.

This system doesn't disturb anything in the current game design - it just makes the mechanisms that are only available to the AI right now available to player groups.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

So you've no issues with non-aligned players entering guild systems and landing in guild stations then, and will the rest of your guild see it that way ?

That sounds more like an issue from EVE where anyone not of the same cult got instantly destroyed by paranoid players (me included) gleefully blew up anyone not blue to us.

Thiss is something that can be corrected quite easily.

A station is HUGE.
A player faction is at best 100-1000 players
A station most likely has 10K to 50K of people manning the station and making it work
A station NEEDS commerce
A station needs commerce because it needs supplies, entertainment and goods used ON the station.
A station is driven by more than a factions need of "fun"

So, a player faction who makes sure to keep other players outside of "their" system will have a problem because the amount of commerce they can give is far too little compared to what is needed to keep the population and station going.

We cannot have a gameplay with player driven paranoid gated communities with draconical us vs them rules in Elite because it does not make sense.

 

[jprelph]

I have never had a guild try and control me...not sure where you get that nonsense. When I have joined a guild and they had a mission they wanted to accomplish that was why I joined.

Really? I've joined guilds in WoW and Everquest and there was definitely a hierarchy and a list of things that you needed to do before you got to a certain level and were "allowed" to join in on certain raids. I've also been in guilds that have had decent leaders and then leaders that were on a complete power-trip, and on PvP servers guilds who have basically blockaded entire areas and made life for non-members difficult.

 

[jprelph]

We cannot have a gameplay with player driven paranoid gated communities with draconical us vs them rules in Elite because it does not make sense.

How do you manage that though? By default every station gets most of it's trade from NPCs as there's simply not enough players to have that big an effect on the economies as they're imagined. So what's to stop a guild claiming a system and hovering in SC and simply wiping out any player that enters the system? This is one of the issues; in real life, because there are consequences, most people act in a way that most people can expect to be at least mostly rational (ie. we don't expect McDonalds employees to petrol bomb cars as they pull up if the drivers have not got blue eyes). There is nothing that FD can add to the game that can enforce expected rational behaviour from every player - which is why the NPCs running the show at least keeps system behaviour semi-reasonable in terms of what happens to you when you jump into a system.

This is a problem as it is with kill-on-sight commanders, a powerful guild system just means that capricious behaviour can just be better organised - and that's what a lot of people fear.