ED and the Oculus Rift DK1 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tom OConnell
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Well you know what they say,
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit"
I'd inb4 a Ban Oculus thread too, but I'm late to the party, as usual.
Anyway, no, I don't think the game should nerf people who use Oculus Rift. If the OR gives people an advantage, well... Them's the breaks, as someone from the East Coast USA might say.
I don't have an OR, and likely won't be getting one any time soon, and probably won't consider getting one until a higher definition version comes along. If it confers an advantage to players, fair enough.
Somewhat related, FDEV might consider bringing in a feature that looked as if it existed in one of their concept arts... That of an overlay for the cockpit. I won't bother linking it here, but the concept in question was an early concept that had an outline of an asteroid overlaid on the cockpit glass where the actual asteroid was, and a proximity warning marker next to it.
Point is that the ability to direct a player to turn left, right, up, down, or flip over, might be useful in one of the HUD views, although if this requires too much of a change to the current scheme, I would say it's not worth the effort. Even without the OR, you can still manipulate the pilot's view (on an XB360 controller, it's the right stick, isn't it? And it can be reconfigured for anyone's particular setup).
I might even go out and buy a fairly cheap webcam and set up a poor man's version of TrackIR using the FreeTrackNoIR software to compensate.
EDIT: Yes, Padlock view sounds better, actually, for those of us that don't have either TrackIR or Oculus Rift.
Anyway, no, I don't think the game should nerf people who use Oculus Rift. If the OR gives people an advantage, well... Them's the breaks, as someone from the East Coast USA might say.
I don't have an OR, and likely won't be getting one any time soon, and probably won't consider getting one until a higher definition version comes along. If it confers an advantage to players, fair enough.
Somewhat related, FDEV might consider bringing in a feature that looked as if it existed in one of their concept arts... That of an overlay for the cockpit. I won't bother linking it here, but the concept in question was an early concept that had an outline of an asteroid overlaid on the cockpit glass where the actual asteroid was, and a proximity warning marker next to it.
Point is that the ability to direct a player to turn left, right, up, down, or flip over, might be useful in one of the HUD views, although if this requires too much of a change to the current scheme, I would say it's not worth the effort. Even without the OR, you can still manipulate the pilot's view (on an XB360 controller, it's the right stick, isn't it? And it can be reconfigured for anyone's particular setup).
I might even go out and buy a fairly cheap webcam and set up a poor man's version of TrackIR using the FreeTrackNoIR software to compensate.
EDIT: Yes, Padlock view sounds better, actually, for those of us that don't have either TrackIR or Oculus Rift.
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It does give an advantage against someone without it. When doing loops around each other, the pilot with OR will be looking up at you and will see whatever counter maneuver you try, where as someone without wont see whats going on until they swing around to find the opponent has veered off to the left. It's an awesome piece of equipment to use, but make no mistake about it's bonus to combat verses another player who is only using the radar.
I imagine that the situational awareness aspect is precisely why all-around cockpit views were built for combat aircraft in the first place. If it confers an advantage, I'm all for it, even if I'm the one at a disadvantage as a consequence of not owning the hardware (yet).
From watching other alpha tester's videos, the OR does appear to offer an advantage in terms of intuitiveness & immediacy, though this may be balanced in other ways so it doesn't worry me at all. I'd love to use OR but I won't be buying one because due to an inner ear problem it's likely to induce motion sickness & I can't afford to waste money on something that I might only use for a few minutes. 
What DOES worry me is that the scanner's logarithmic scale & auto-zoom constantly shift other ship's positions in relation to yours, making it very difficult to build an 'inside your head' map of where they are at any given moment, & this is surely where OR gives an advantage.
Maybe I played too long using the 'classic' scanner & learned to 'see' where other ships were & to accurately predict their range & heading - something you can do quite literally with OR & which looks like it might confer an advantage over me personally.
As things are, the scanner is almost useless to me & might even be a deal-breaker.
What DOES worry me is that the scanner's logarithmic scale & auto-zoom constantly shift other ship's positions in relation to yours, making it very difficult to build an 'inside your head' map of where they are at any given moment, & this is surely where OR gives an advantage.
Maybe I played too long using the 'classic' scanner & learned to 'see' where other ships were & to accurately predict their range & heading - something you can do quite literally with OR & which looks like it might confer an advantage over me personally.
As things are, the scanner is almost useless to me & might even be a deal-breaker.
There are cheap head tracking alternatives if it bothers you, OR seems like many people are having to use it for limited periods of time only and i doubt it will ever be common, what with the restricted contact most players will have with other players in such a big play area i can't see a problem.
If you WANT to fight other players on an even footing then you'll have to buy one or look into the head tracking alternatives.
I dont want one, i don't want to be sealed off in a headset, but i did buy an X52 pro and got an extra two monitors set up and ready to go and will be sorting out head tracking if i think it's needed for the way i'm planning on playing.
To be honest alpha isn't really grabbing me at the moment because dog fighting is not what interests me and i suspect that bigger ships with lots of turrets and gimballed weapons really wont need to worry to much about seeing where the enemy has gone and will spend more time allocating power and doing running repairs rather than chasing after sidewinders out the windows.
If I'm in a Panther or an Anaconda you wont need OR to see where I've gone.
If you WANT to fight other players on an even footing then you'll have to buy one or look into the head tracking alternatives.
I dont want one, i don't want to be sealed off in a headset, but i did buy an X52 pro and got an extra two monitors set up and ready to go and will be sorting out head tracking if i think it's needed for the way i'm planning on playing.
To be honest alpha isn't really grabbing me at the moment because dog fighting is not what interests me and i suspect that bigger ships with lots of turrets and gimballed weapons really wont need to worry to much about seeing where the enemy has gone and will spend more time allocating power and doing running repairs rather than chasing after sidewinders out the windows.
If I'm in a Panther or an Anaconda you wont need OR to see where I've gone.
The customer version of the occulus rift will _probably_ be much better and not have the "motion sickness" problems. Check out the VR research from Valve. Just wanted to correct that.
The TrackIR should provide an equal advantage, using a completely different and intuitive muscle group to look around. Although TrackIR seems to me rather expensive for what it does compared to the OR, I think there are cheaper DIY webcam based solutions out there.
It's not just motion sickness, it's weight as well, it may well get lighter, but as it stands i still think it will be a rare peripheral compared to the amount of people that play the game and for some of the people using it they wont use it all the time.
My motorcycle helmet is roughly 10 times heavier than the Rift and I've worn it for 8+ hours a day, getting buffeted by wind speeds of up to 160mph (on a track of course) - the Rift's weight is pretty much a non issue unless you have some sort of pre-existing neck problem I'm guessing.
I don't think it will be rare at all - in a few years time I imagine most PC gamers will have some sort of VR headset... the price will come down (and it's already good value if you compared it to, say, A track IR and decent tri-monitor setup). I'd bet your life on it, I'm that confident.
There is always CastAR, it's likely to be much lighter.
I don't care much about the OR giving an advantage... i won't use it.
Sure, it's a VERY nice gadget.
The negative point for me is it's huge advantage: immersion.
I'm maybe just a little paranoid but i can't stand being shut off from my surroundings. That even includes "closed" headsets which block every sound around me.
To be true, theres nothing of interest around me when playing (i rarely pick up the phone even when hearing it ring...and if i tell my wife i'll be playing she won't try to speak with me)
I just don't feel good when not partially in "real space".
Maybe i'll give TrackIR a chance
Sure, it's a VERY nice gadget.
The negative point for me is it's huge advantage: immersion.
I'm maybe just a little paranoid but i can't stand being shut off from my surroundings. That even includes "closed" headsets which block every sound around me.
To be true, theres nothing of interest around me when playing (i rarely pick up the phone even when hearing it ring...and if i tell my wife i'll be playing she won't try to speak with me)
I just don't feel good when not partially in "real space".
Maybe i'll give TrackIR a chance
IMO:
- No
- Yes
I would like an OR, don't own one, feel it would add to the realism factor and help when wanting to look about, but i don't feel it's required.
My motorcycle helmet is roughly 10 times heavier than the Rift and I've worn it for 8+ hours a day, getting buffeted by wind speeds of up to 160mph (on a track of course) - the Rift's weight is pretty much a non issue unless you have some sort of pre-existing neck problem I'm guessing.
I don't think it will be rare at all - in a few years time I imagine most PC gamers will have some sort of VR headset... the price will come down (and it's already good value if you compared it to, say, A track IR and decent tri-monitor setup). I'd bet your life on it, I'm that confident.
If your on a track for 8 hours doing 160+ your not comparable to the average overweight and under active gamer, your either a pro doing a LOT of testing or your doing endurance racing or both.
Most people who wear lids won't be wearing them much longer than an hour or so without stopping for a break and that's how I see the OR users, compared to the overall number of them not many bikers are actually working on the bike, most are commuting or using them for fun.
If the Rift offers an advantage in Elite it's to be celebrated. It's not a problem, nor does it need to be nerfed.
Elite is not a PvP fest where everything needs to be balanced. It's primarily a PvE game where we may occasionally clash with fellow human pilots. If somebody owns me becuase he or she has the Rift and I don't, I just think it's rather cool that the immersive device can add so much.
Elite is not a PvP fest where everything needs to be balanced. It's primarily a PvE game where we may occasionally clash with fellow human pilots. If somebody owns me becuase he or she has the Rift and I don't, I just think it's rather cool that the immersive device can add so much.
I bought a TrackIR for Rise of Flight. It's a gigantic advantage over someone without head tracking. I was convinced after watching some youtube vids of some gamers in Rise of Flight and how natural it was to track targets by just looking at them and being able to react to another plane's maneuvers when normally it would be out of sight and unsure what they were doing. Their complete dominance with TrackIR said everything I needed to know.
Without head tracking you have this narrow maybe 90 degree cone of view looking forward (not sure what Elite uses, but most of my other non-flight games seem to be around 70 degrees). With head tracking you still have this 90 degree cone, but you can swing it left and right and up (the rest is blocked by cockpit), rotate your head, lean forward to zoom into whatever you are looking at and now your view from left to right is maybe 270 degrees of viewing area (because the view is blocked directly behind your seat in Elite) and being able to look up - all that without having to consciously thinking about what keys to hit because you are just moving your head.
I was fine for years without TrackIR because I had no idea what I was missing. Now if I can't use it I feel kinda claustrophobic if I can't look around. Not to mention the very cool ability to glance out the side windows and admire the view as you fly past something. You can use the mouse look (mouse 3) but then temporarily give up control of your ship while using the mouse to look around (if using mouse and keyboard for flight).
A track target key might help people without Oculus or TrackIR, but for me it was disorienting in other flight sims because sometimes the camera would jump as a ship passed behind you, the camera spun around, and you lost that sense of where your eyes were looking in relation to your ship. With OR or TrackIR you know exactly where your eyes are pointed in relation to your ship at all times, because your computer monitor is the front of your ship and your camera is locked to your head.
Without head tracking you have this narrow maybe 90 degree cone of view looking forward (not sure what Elite uses, but most of my other non-flight games seem to be around 70 degrees). With head tracking you still have this 90 degree cone, but you can swing it left and right and up (the rest is blocked by cockpit), rotate your head, lean forward to zoom into whatever you are looking at and now your view from left to right is maybe 270 degrees of viewing area (because the view is blocked directly behind your seat in Elite) and being able to look up - all that without having to consciously thinking about what keys to hit because you are just moving your head.
I was fine for years without TrackIR because I had no idea what I was missing. Now if I can't use it I feel kinda claustrophobic if I can't look around. Not to mention the very cool ability to glance out the side windows and admire the view as you fly past something. You can use the mouse look (mouse 3) but then temporarily give up control of your ship while using the mouse to look around (if using mouse and keyboard for flight).
A track target key might help people without Oculus or TrackIR, but for me it was disorienting in other flight sims because sometimes the camera would jump as a ship passed behind you, the camera spun around, and you lost that sense of where your eyes were looking in relation to your ship. With OR or TrackIR you know exactly where your eyes are pointed in relation to your ship at all times, because your computer monitor is the front of your ship and your camera is locked to your head.
Even thought it's off topic I could imagine that a VR headset might give you more info on your actual surroundings. Imagine you have 3D cameras all over the house and outside, and also at the front of the headset. You could have a permanent "minimap" of your larger surroundings. See people though walls. This is of course a bit sci fi but the kinect can already be used for "live 3D scanning".
So because your concern is totally valid, I'd imagine this sort of product will pop up. Someone walking up to you while you are wearing the headset would just materialize in your cockpit
There is a hatch on the bottom of your cockpit that mysteriously opens into the living room, where you wife comes up and tells you that dinner is ready, or just looks at you. And you look back at her and wave! A VR experience wouldn't need to be isolating. At the start of course yes.And what will make VR a breakthrough is is this talk about "presence", the feeling that you are actually there. Even for non realistic rendering, your lower brain functions interpret your experience as "real, you are actually here". It's one step above immersion. Of course this might just be wishful thinking, and also might bring a host of other problems as well (addiction to VR, problems distinguishing VR memories from reality, health problems).
So my main counter argument against fears of unfair advantages is that it's simply too cool not to have
PS: About the weight, we might end up with people having "VR necks" similar to people having "tennis arm" lol.
There was a huge discussion a while ago that people didn't want to have players buy a better ship with actual money as they feel it was unfair for players to jump that hurdle but surely that is exactly what is happening if you are saying that the rich players can buy a type of input method that makes it easier for them to play.
Instead of making playing with a keyboard more forgiving or infuriating the Oculus Rift players by making the control artificially slow (or something similar) may I suggest that we let the game know what kind of input device we will be using so that we are put into instances that predominantly have players using that type of input if desired so that if you have an Oculus Rift, you wont mind meeting any player but can ask to be restricted to Oculus rift players while if you are a keyboard user you may choose to stay in Kb only etc.
There will be 4 main groupings : kb, joypad (includes xbox), joystick ( includes Hotas) headset ( includes Oculus Rift) - just tick the players input method that you don't mind meeting in your instance but don't alter the gameplay.
Instead of making playing with a keyboard more forgiving or infuriating the Oculus Rift players by making the control artificially slow (or something similar) may I suggest that we let the game know what kind of input device we will be using so that we are put into instances that predominantly have players using that type of input if desired so that if you have an Oculus Rift, you wont mind meeting any player but can ask to be restricted to Oculus rift players while if you are a keyboard user you may choose to stay in Kb only etc.
There will be 4 main groupings : kb, joypad (includes xbox), joystick ( includes Hotas) headset ( includes Oculus Rift) - just tick the players input method that you don't mind meeting in your instance but don't alter the gameplay.
Frankly, in no other simulation anyone has ever suggested separating oculus or TrackIR players from players who don't have this equipment. I have an Oculus SDK as well as TrackIR and I can tell you: Yes, TrackIR gives you more situational awareness, which is a benefit in dogfights. Yes, Oculus does so too, though aiming and spotting is a tad more difficult due to the low resolution.
A simple padlock key (I simply haven't been able to get mouselook to work in ED yet) or something similar can reproduce 99% of the benefit you get with TrackIR without any further investment. Target gone out of the forward view? Just use the thumbsticks to follow with your eyes while you maneuver.
Problem solved, and no need to nerf anything or separate playerbases, IMHO.
A simple padlock key (I simply haven't been able to get mouselook to work in ED yet) or something similar can reproduce 99% of the benefit you get with TrackIR without any further investment. Target gone out of the forward view? Just use the thumbsticks to follow with your eyes while you maneuver.
Problem solved, and no need to nerf anything or separate playerbases, IMHO.
The OR is a great idea and looks like it would take the game to another level. I personally do not have one but I in no way see the game should be changed to alter the fantastic experience of those that do!
Move along, there is nothing to see here!
Move along, there is nothing to see here!
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