External View [A definitive discussion]

[Barns]

Alternatively, it's because they've already made their minds up. ie: No external view.

Personally I fear it's the latter. But I hope they simply haven't decided yet.

I'm reasonably sure they're going the route of "camera drone", and it's not in yet because, well, tonnes of core basic gameplay stuff isn't in the alpha yet. It'll come in beta I expect.

If it's missing entirely, well, there obviously is a built in freeform 3rd person camera in some form of "developer mode". I fully expect hacks to become available which will open that up, when you're running in SP offline mode (online modes I expect will have various anti-hack-cheat mechanisms to prevent this sort of thing). Pretty much every game with a limited camera mode has had a "free" camera hacked in soon after release.

 

[Theodrid]

Pretty much. The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it. The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

Pretty much Neil, though this quote from Mike does seem to suggest it is at the very least a 'no' for launch.

 

[-o-]

It should be rather telling that of all the subjects that have appeared in the DDF, where FD really want our input on things such as how travelling will work and what happens when you shoot someone you shouldn't etc, not once has the subject of a third person view arisen. People should think on that....

It means there is someone high up in FD who refuses to change their position on this matter. They have no interest in offering it to the DDF because the decision was made long ago to go with cockpit only.

You think everyone within FD has the same view on this? Im sure there are many who oppose it but are in no position to do anything about it unless they get the required overwhelming push from the community. Even then, it will be a tough nut to crack.

Yes, it is their game, and they make the final decisions. Not quite sure if that final decision has been made on this one. My gut feeling is that will eventually offer the external view option because they will see that they could attract more buyers that way.

Oh yes, and can the mods please merge this thread with this one >

 

[NeilF]

Oh yes, and can the mods please merge this thread with this one >

LOL! Not surprising it should exist over there too

 

[Tinman]

I am concerned when people seem to be arguing against external view solely out of principle? I apologise if this isn't the case, but that's how it sometimes comes across. I don't want it, so let's not have it!

That's not really what I'm saying...but at the same time it kind of is.

You seem to want FD to implement a 3rd person view since it's possible to do so. I'm saying that this is irrelevant since the reason they have for not including this is not a technical one...it's a artistic choice.

When I write music I often set up "rules" for the music that I need to follow. These rules doesn't need a reason as such, but the WILL force me to come up with clever solutions to get around them. In other words, these rules will help me to innovate. Implementing a third person view is easy compared to having a rule of "first person only". The current outfitting screen for example is according to the devs placeholder since they want to keep you inside the commanders body at all times. Finding a good way to get a view of the ship while outfitting it and at the same time do that from the eyes of the commander is much harder than to just implement a third person camera like they have now. This will force them to find clever solutions around this issue which hopefully will lead to innovations. This will also mean that ED will get a more "unique" identity compared to other space/flight sims.

No matter what you create there is always a couple of core pillars you hold on to. These things doesn't really need a "reason" to exist, but they will help in giving that product a clear identity. In EDs case "from the eyes of the commander" seems to be such a pillar.

Some people will love this and some won't, but that would happen no matter what they did. I just happen to be one of the ones who like the direction they are going for.

Anyway...it seems like we are approaching this issue from totally different perspectives so we will probably never agree on this...and that is perfectly fine!

(Especially since I seem to be getting my wishes fulfilled...)

 

[NeoRacer]

Thats awesome! So why not HAVE IT but be able to DISABLE it people want?! Rather than just not even do it?! Its insanity. Not an artistic choice, but give people options they kinda expect and have enjoyed for many years in other games.

Oh yea and Im pretty sure people will be hacking views into it anyway..so might as well make it legit.

That's not really what I'm saying...but at the same time it kind of is.

You seem to want FD to implement a 3rd person view since it's possible to do so. I'm saying that this is irrelevant since the reason they have for not including this is not a technical one...it's a artistic choice.

When I write music I often set up "rules" for the music that I need to follow. These rules doesn't need a reason as such, but the WILL force me to come up with clever solutions to get around them. In other words, these rules will help me to innovate. Implementing a third person view is easy compared to having a rule of "first person only". The current outfitting screen for example is according to the devs placeholder since they want to keep you inside the commanders body at all times. Finding a good way to get a view of the ship while outfitting it and at the same time do that from the eyes of the commander is much harder than to just implement a third person camera like they have now. This will force them to find clever solutions around this issue which hopefully will lead to innovations. This will also mean that ED will get a more "unique" identity compared to other space/flight sims.

No matter what you create there is always a couple of core pillars you hold on to. These things doesn't really need a "reason" to exist, but they will help in giving that product a clear identity. In EDs case "from the eyes of the commander" seems to be such a pillar.

Some people will love this and some won't, but that would happen no matter what they did. I just happen to be one of the ones who like the direction they are going for.

Anyway...it seems like we are approaching this issue from totally different perspectives so we will probably never agree on this...and that is perfectly fine!

(Especially since I seem to be getting my wishes fulfilled...)

 

[Tinman]

Ha ha, hypocrisy! It's okay for you you to compare a game vision to that of a painting, or a film, or a piece of music but not okay to compare hardware control mechanisms to software ones within a game? :S Weird.

Joystick, mouse, keyboard, gamepads, Oculus Rift, TrackIR are all controllers in one way or the other. A choice of camera view or perspective isn't. Am I missing something here?

 

[deusx_ophc]

Thats awesome! So why not HAVE IT but be able to DISABLE it people want?! Rather than just not even do it?! Its insanity. Not an artistic choice, but give people options they kinda expect and have enjoyed for many years in other games.

Oh yea and Im pretty sure people will be hacking views into it anyway..so might as well make it legit.

no it is not insanity. it is a differentiator and obviously a clear design decision.

the hacking agrument is pants, as is the disable everything feature.

what a crazy crusade this is

/boggle

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Thats awesome! So why not HAVE IT but be able to DISABLE it people want?! Rather than just not even do it?! Its insanity. Not an artistic choice, but give people options they kinda expect and have enjoyed for many years in other games.

Oh yea and Im pretty sure people will be hacking views into it anyway..so might as well make it legit.

are you talking offline or online

if you are talking offline, then I agree, if the tools are there for the devs, may as well enable them for the punters.

if you are talking online then you have completely ignored everything that has been talked about in terms of balance, which even people who want 3rd person such as Neil accept is an issue.

and as for modding, again, offline am pretty sure ED will have a decent modding community, but I hope people going online with mods get permabanned v quickly.

 

[NeoRacer]

Not really, I already seen an 'out of ship' view on youtube, just wait till the masses get their hands on it And the disable everything button is 100% legit, since its been around in many games for years?!? lol Reality will hit once the game is live..

no it is not insanity. it is a differentiator and obviously a clear design decision.

the hacking agrument is pants, as is the disable everything feature.

what a crazy crusade this is

/boggle

 

[jabokai]

Joystick, mouse, keyboard, gamepads, Oculus Rift, TrackIR are all controllers in one way or the other. A choice of camera view or perspective isn't. Am I missing something here?

Not in your head you're not... evidently. You're picking and choosing between methods of playing the game and what you decide is suitable for a comparison to other areas of entertainment. Somehow it's okay for you to say that an artist gives us a specific work of art (that we are not allowed to question) but when using that to compare against games you're perfectly fine changing some of the parameters (like control method) but you're not okay with other parameters (like viewpoint) changing.

What's a bigger difference from KB and mouse on a normal monitor in first person - HOTAS and Oculus Rift, or third person? You'd argue that HOTAS and OR is little or no difference, seemingly. I'd argue that BOTH were big changes and both allow more people to enjoy the game in different way from the designer's absolute vision.

 

[Theodrid]

Not in your head you're not... evidently. You're picking and choosing between methods of playing the game and what you decide is suitable for a comparison to other areas of entertainment. Somehow it's okay for you to say that an artist gives us a specific work of art (that we are not allowed to question) but when using that to compare against games you're perfectly fine changing some of the parameters (like control method) but you're not okay with other parameters (like viewpoint) changing.

What's a bigger difference from KB and mouse on a normal monitor in first person - HOTAS and Oculus Rift, or third person? You'd argue that HOTAS and OR is little or no difference, seemingly. I'd argue that BOTH were big changes and both allow more people to enjoy the game in different way from the designer's absolute vision.

I mentioned earlier in the thread when NeiF and I were debating this Jabokai, , Widescreen, full HOTAS and the like DO offer an advantage, without question, but, as I said to him, if I were playing only with mouse/kb and I had those advantages 'against' me I could do without another one in the form of a 3rdppov.

As I said to NeilF, if asked, would I rather have 3 advantages against me or 4, I would pick the lower number every time..

 

[Rog]

As I said to NeilF, if asked, would I rather have 3 advantages against me or 4, I would pick the lower number every time..

But using the external view would be a huge DISadvantage with the proposed handicaps, and most combat (not the most important part of the game for many) is going to be against AI, according to David Braben.

 

[Theodrid]

I've been over this several times with the thread creator NeilF, and those of us who are not in favour of 3rdppov consider the 'nerfs' on the front page to only partially, (at best), address some of these issues.

 

[Tinman]

Not in your head you're not... evidently. You're picking and choosing between methods of playing the game and what you decide is suitable for a comparison to other areas of entertainment. Somehow it's okay for you to say that an artist gives us a specific work of art (that we are not allowed to question) but when using that to compare against games you're perfectly fine changing some of the parameters (like control method) but you're not okay with other parameters (like viewpoint) changing.

I think you are missing my point. I'm not the one who have made these choices, FD are. They have made a choice of first person view and they have also made a choice to support a wide range of controllers. Other game developers make different design choices in regards to their games. They might choose to specifically make a game that is dependent on a specific controller instead, let's say Kinect, and they can also choose to freely switch between different points of view in that game since they want that variation. This is equally valid but it adds a very different identity to the game.

What's a bigger difference from KB and mouse on a normal monitor in first person - HOTAS and Oculus Rift, or third person? You'd argue that HOTAS and OR is little or no difference, seemingly. I'd argue that BOTH were big changes and both allow more people to enjoy the game in different way from the designer's absolute vision.

That depends on how you define "different".

Using HOTAS coupled with a OR is "just" a very amplified and enhanced version of playing the same game with mouse and keyboard on a normal monitor. In both instances you are still seeing the game from the same perspective, AKA the eyes of the commander, even if OR is waaaaaay more immersive. This is why switching into a 3rd person view is a bigger change technically speaking IMO.

 

[NeilF]

That's not really what I'm saying...but at the same time it kind of is.

You seem to want FD to implement a 3rd person view since it's possible to do so. I'm saying that this is irrelevant since the reason they have for not including this is not a technical one...it's a artistic choice.

You may well be right... I guess many would file this under the immersion category?

But I would be careful in suggesting you know what FD's thinking or choices are; You may well be right, but you surely can't know if they've decided to included or exclude an external view yet, if they're still on the fence about it, and indeed what their criteria are for an decision.

 

[Theodrid]

Pretty much. The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it. The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

But Neil, this is pretty clear, to me at least.

EDIT - post 614 in this thread from Mike Evans - Designer - Elite Dangerous

 

[NeilF]

But using the external view would be a huge DISadvantage with the proposed handicaps, and most combat (not the most important part of the game for many) is going to be against AI, according to David Braben.

I concur, but it's clear others see it differently. We'll just need to agree to disagree I think

The most recent example was the suggestion of someone using external view to tactically scout out an advantage for his nearby friends. For the life of me I cannot fathom how this is the case, and how infact the proposed external view is not actually a hindrance to such a goal. So clearly we just see the matter entirely differently... And I don't think that is likely to change

 

[NeilF]

But Neil, this is pretty clear, to me at least.

OK...

Are you reading Mike's comment as no external view is in the game?

If that's the case, that's profound news I feel! But I'd still question if this is referencing a traditional external view - ie: You can play the game the same from inside the cockpit or external? Which is something very different to what's being discussed here of course.

 

[Tinman]

You may well be right... I guess many would file this under the immersion category?

But I would be careful in suggesting you know what FD's thinking or choices are; You may well be right, but you surely can't know if they've decided to included or exclude an external view yet, if they're still on the fence about it, and indeed what their criteria are for an decision.

I'm only going on what they have said so far which indicates this to be the case, but yes. I can't know this for certain. However this doesn't exclude a external view as long as it's "in cockpit" somehow and this is something I personally have no objections against. As a matter of fact I hope it will be included. This is different from a "disembodied" 3rd person view though.