I know what's happened in the beta. A QOL feature was announced which gave added content which is not currently in the main game. Then part of that content was moved behind a timesink in the beta and will remain there when the beta becomes the live game. I can assure you that it's not only beta players who feel somewhat cheated by that as a general approach.
Exploration Scans
- Thread starter Sandro Sammarco
- Start date
I know what's happened in the beta. A QOL feature was announced which gave added content which is not currently in the main game. Then part of that content was moved behind a timesink in the beta and will remain there when the beta becomes the live game. I can assure you that it's not only beta players who feel somewhat cheated by that as a general approach.
Exploration already is the least financially rewarding job in Elite. It is the most time consuming job in Elite. It is also the only job prone to lose everything; months of work to anything from a bug(hardware and software alike), to valid gameplay, to player error. When exploring you cant do anything else, you are far away and if you need a break you cant play the game anymore because you are out in the black. Exploration can't be done in a roleplay fashion because the game does not reward it in a roleplay fashion. Exploration cant be done to put bread and butter on the table because its not financially rewarding. Exploration only exist for the pretty pictures as of right now. That makes it the least relevant part of the game.
Making exploration harder is insane. An earth like should already pay 1million to reflect the rarity. Make everything unknown until Detailed Surface Scanned will make exploration so much worse than it already is.
Considering all this, considering the billions of system we have to explore and will never run out, considering that you persist in making exploration pay chump change for extremely rare find. Considering all this, i dont trust you to try and make exploration any harder or more engaging and i dont even trust you to make it worthwhile from a roleplay or financial point of view. pretty pictures dont pay the bill and cartographer couldnt careless what i find.
Maybe you wouldnt need to stealthy make those "exploits" that people have to look for and use to grind cash if they dont mind exploiting. OFC we know they are willfully created, therefor not truly exploiting or cheating but they still get "fixed" because you cant admit theres something wrong/lacking with your game. You want to make exploring harder and even less rewarding? wow, just wow...
Making exploration harder is insane. An earth like should already pay 1million to reflect the rarity. Make everything unknown until Detailed Surface Scanned will make exploration so much worse than it already is.
Considering all this, considering the billions of system we have to explore and will never run out, considering that you persist in making exploration pay chump change for extremely rare find. Considering all this, i dont trust you to try and make exploration any harder or more engaging and i dont even trust you to make it worthwhile from a roleplay or financial point of view. pretty pictures dont pay the bill and cartographer couldnt careless what i find.
Maybe you wouldnt need to stealthy make those "exploits" that people have to look for and use to grind cash if they dont mind exploiting. OFC we know they are willfully created, therefor not truly exploiting or cheating but they still get "fixed" because you cant admit theres something wrong/lacking with your game. You want to make exploring harder and even less rewarding? wow, just wow...
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So you want to increase the amount of time I spend in a system dramatically, but don't think it's a time sink. Who, officially, promised additional compensation for this?
I don't care what you do with the BDS or IDS. I gotta ask, does/did anyone use the IDS? I never did. Went right from basic to advanced.
ADS should reveal all visual references. It is called Advanced. And the DSS giving the kind of rocks and such of object.
No reason to make this complicated!
LLaP
S1E
ADS should reveal all visual references. It is called Advanced. And the DSS giving the kind of rocks and such of object.
No reason to make this complicated!
LLaP
S1E
I suspect the majority asking for this never leave the bubble. Hey everyone, let's increase the amount of time miners have to shoot the rock by twenty times. That'll be more fun and engaging.
Hello Commanders!
There have been a number of threads and posts about the status of exploration scanning in the beta, including the detailed surface scanner module. This post is just to let folk know our thinking - I'm posting it here for maximum visibility.
For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).
Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.
You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.
Some folk have suggested that they would prefer to have the surface of a body revealed in the planet map by the initial basic exploration scan, as that detail can inform them whether they wish to investigate the body further. This is a reasonable suggestion.
Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.
And yet other folk think the current system is good to go and this is also clearly reasonable.
So it’s fair to say there are some different opinion on this matter.
Whilst we can’t supply guarantees or ETAs, we just want to make clear that the current implementation does not necessarily represent the finished version of exploration scanning (or exploration in general, just the version that will go out with 2.2 The Guardians.
So please feel free to make suggestions for improvements (in this thread would be a good place to pop them) and to let us know what you think of the current implementation.
Id be ok with surface scans being required for detailed surface maps but only if scans are able to be done from much much further away.
Personally i think all should appear on the ADS scan but the DSS should help guide you to metals on the planet (may need a change on how engineering mats appear ie. For iron instead of 1 or 2 peices appearing fron random rocks you could find deposits of it
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So you basically have to fly to every planet to see what it is, considering the amount of systems this just about kills exploration? Surely the time sink involved is crippling?
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Hello Commanders!
There have been a number of threads and posts about the status of exploration scanning in the beta, including the detailed surface scanner module. This post is just to let folk know our thinking - I'm posting it here for maximum visibility.
For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).
Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.
You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.
Some folk have suggested that they would prefer to have the surface of a body revealed in the planet map by the initial basic exploration scan, as that detail can inform them whether they wish to investigate the body further. This is a reasonable suggestion.
Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.
And yet other folk think the current system is good to go and this is also clearly reasonable.
So it’s fair to say there are some different opinion on this matter
Whilst we can’t supply guarantees or ETAs, we just want to make clear that the current implementation does not necessarily represent the finished version of exploration scanning (or exploration in general, just the version that will go out with 2.2 The Guardians.
So please feel free to make suggestions for improvements (in this thread would be a good place to pop them) and to let us know what you think of the current implementation.
Thanks Sandy. For mine, I would actually like the black spheres until each object is scanned, with the DSS required to get the surface map in each case. However, I understand why many don't want that, so I would like to see:
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- discovery scanner reveals the objects (according to range of said scanner), with the current (2.1) 2D representation of the surface on the system map (so people will still see the planet type and can cherrypick as they do now)
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- basic scan of each object (ie the basic scan you get using only the discovery scanner when selecting the object and getting close enough) only reveals the data that we get now (eg object data, minus things like materials composition)
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- DSS is required in order to get the additional object info AND the 3D detailed surface map
.
Simple logic really - the 3D surface map is detailed - a specific scanner (DSS - hint hint DETAILED surface scanner) should be required in order to obtain it, just as it's needed to get the additional data on an object (noting we don't actually have to cirumnavigate the object to get the whole surface map, which we 'should' have to do if we wanted to be pedantic about it).
.
I also think it would be worth considering improved variants of the DSS, with increased ranges, akin to what we have with discovery scanners, as an added option.
.
Of course, where a Nav Beacon is available, it should provide the 3D surface map as part of its data package.
.
And for the love of god please don't give in to claims the discovery scanner and DSS should be merged into one module. Part of the whole point of ship outfitting is the decisions a CMDR needs to make in that outfitting, the trade-offs to do what they want to do and the 2nd and 3rd order effects of those decisions/trade-offs.
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1. An ADS with a DDS could show surface detail and starports in the system map.
2. A basic discovery scanner with a DDS could show startports, but no planetary surfaces in the system map until you scanned the planet.
The DDS would then function as normal to detect materials/features (etc.) on a planetary scan.
2. A basic discovery scanner with a DDS could show startports, but no planetary surfaces in the system map until you scanned the planet.
The DDS would then function as normal to detect materials/features (etc.) on a planetary scan.
The issue with this idea is that it significantly slows down current exploration (in the way that it is designed to be a game goal). A full OC circuit of a planet will add minutes to every DSS scan that a player wants to make for basic first discovery reasons, and only makes it more engaging and rewarding if a player particularly wants to make landfall and find other stuff. Not all explorers want to do that for every planet they scan, and let's face it, scanning a full system even now can be a pretty time consuming business.
I'm not saying that exploration shouldn't take time, and if the things you proposed finding were made to be worth something additional (and optional) towards your exploration progress, then that's fine, but to just make it slower, potentially much slower, will likely not be an incentive to players who want to do exploration as a part of their game experience, not the whole thing.
I would support this if the OC part of a DSS was specifically to find POI and other interesting surface features, but a DSS as it exists now would be enough to earn the first discovered bonus.
No. Before talking about how the rewards would change lets have the DEV talk about changing the reward in the current system. How they feel it should change in the current system and why. How they feel more things could be added for both economical and roleplay rewards. Because if they cant do it right in this system(its bad right now for everything super rare), lets not trust them to make it right AFTER they make exploring much harder and a hassle.
Yes I agree actually - this should be a new type of Orbital Scan mechanic which does reveal the PoI overlay.
Personally I think the planetary type should be visible after a basic system scan, but I understand that doing that takes away from some of the emergent skill in exploring.
The current behaviour of system discovery should remain the same.
The current behaviour of standard planetary scan should remain the same.
New behaviour should be added that adds value worthy of a module slot. The original concept art for planetary scans is perfect.
Detailed Surface Scan should do the following:
* display non-visible information about the planet. Tectonic information, static PoIs etc...
* The above should allow players an easier time of earning credits on the surface, and planetary prospecting. It shuold still require some degree of planetary exploration with the SRV so as not to depreciate or devalue the planetary exploration mechanic, but giving additional supporting information isntead.
The current behaviour of system discovery should remain the same.
The current behaviour of standard planetary scan should remain the same.
New behaviour should be added that adds value worthy of a module slot. The original concept art for planetary scans is perfect.
Detailed Surface Scan should do the following:
* display non-visible information about the planet. Tectonic information, static PoIs etc...
* The above should allow players an easier time of earning credits on the surface, and planetary prospecting. It shuold still require some degree of planetary exploration with the SRV so as not to depreciate or devalue the planetary exploration mechanic, but giving additional supporting information isntead.
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Sandro, I'd say don't get too bogged down with this, it feels like the time just isn't right. Please just let us know that one day you plan to flesh out exploration mechanics in general, including scanning, with different grades of scanners that reveal different things, with new things to find and new reasons to find them. I know one day you plan to make exploration much richer, and when the time is right we know you will deliver!
I'm sure you are aware of the exploration community request list (in my sig) and we are very grateful you are slowly ticking things off from it
This is the most sensible suggestion. The problem here is that this thread and the way it stated it's intent appears confused and is bound to create chaotic responses that are not constructive or productive. For starters, the scanning issue and the exploration improvements in general are two different matters altogether. Then the actual people who spend all their time exploring have already stated their preference in the thread DrKaii has stickied in the exploration sub-forum. Please see there for many suggestions on improving the experience of exploration.
Often stated, completely untrue. At the maximum range a body can be scanned (whether with DSS or without – there’s no difference; the range seems to depend only on the body’s radius) the body in question is just a dot. Even well within the optimal scan range no surface details are discernible.
Agreed – both good ideas.
It already works that way. If you’re within the optimal range (which my observations indicate to be about 40% of the maximum range) the scan takes only 15 s. However, currently it can’t be any shorter than that.
I like the general idea, but define “forward field of view”. I hope you don’t mean the user-adjustable FOV setting.
Hi, just my 2 cents to the discussion and some ideas beyond the current problems. This turned out a longer post than I anticipated. So be it.
1. The scanner discussion
What I propose is basically this:
Basically you keep different scanner ranges. The difference is that you only get information about bodies scanned within your scanner range. As a plus for new and aspiring explorers out there, you DO get to see the rest of the bodies on the system map. They are just grayed out, so you have to close in to them to do a honk.
Bodies scanned always show in system map and in planet zoom (body surface features).
WHY?
I remember the time when I was exploring with a basic scanner. It was fun. Soon I realized I can find planets outside my scan range thanks to the magic of paralax. Just fly out far enough and eyeball which dots move in regard to galaxy background. It was fun, rewarding, but really bad for my eyes and time consuming. Let's lend a hand to those poorer/beginner explorers and show them there is more than just the scan. Just go to the planets and make more scans. You just don't know what you'll find. This hopefully lets players start exploring long before they can afford better scanners.
2. Additional features and DSS
No promises and no ETA of course. This has been suggested a lot in the thread, that's just my quickly made viz of what I imagine.
Detailed surface scans give you a number of things (as many of you said before):
- Materials distribution (based on tectonics, etc)
- Points of interest - details lower
- Surface conflict zones
- Anything the future might bring (I won't dwell on this, cause FD knows what they're doing)
This is a quick mockup of how you could click on a material in the planetary zoom mode and get a rough estimate of where you can find them on a planet. No more sensless buggying around to find that arsenic. This of course creates opportunities for some emergent gameplay:
- Maybe the richest spots are guarded?
- Maybe it's restricted
- Maybe there's a minig base there that's controlled by an unfriendly faction
- Et cetera..
POIs
Let the DDS show potential POIs, but - only spots if they're big enough.
For example:
- A small circle POI: Probably a surface base as it generates a lot of scanner noise
- A large circle POI: There's something there, just look around the area (wreckage etc)
- A planet wide POI: There's definately something faint there (barnacles, ancient sites, some faint signal) - I WANT TO KNOW THAT
The key here would be a mechanism to further locate the position of POIs (To an extent). The closer you get to a POI the smaller the potential position circle gets, so the flow goes like this:
1. Detailed scan -> No POIs -> Allright, let's get scanning another planet.
2. Detailed scan -> Some small/large POIs -> It's interesting, I'll go closer to take a look/Forget it
3. Detailed scan -> Planet wide POI -> Oh god, god, I need to find it and check out what it is -> VROOM
That's my take on what scanning should be in the future.
3. Some more suggestions for exploration (These are loosely based on my travels, adventures, ideas and so on)
- Rebuy screen
The dreaded sight for any explorer, either out in the dark or coming back. Please, please let us drop "Small/Large Survey Caches" that are only pickable by us. If you die you don't loose AS MUCH (1 month of exploration due to me being killed with no warning when I got back to the bubble). The data can be corrupted (20-50% scanned data lost), but please, let us regain what we worked hard for. It's a long time getting exploration data. It's a very short time dying and loosing everything (still salty about that). If you die then just BOOKMARK the system you died in with "Exploration Survey Cache HERE".
- Random bonus scans
Here's what I have in mind. Imagine you're out in the dark, scanning a gas giant with 3 asteroid rings. Then suddenly a notification pops up with "Unusual ring signature detected". Then you can actually scan the rings (With DDS) and you get for example "Paladium rich ring detected" - That means that you get a 50/100/200% more chance of paladium dropping when you mine there. Of course the scan data gets that much more valuable.
This would also make scanning bubble systems (or nearby bubble systems) that much more appealing.
Same goes for example with specific metal/water/ammonia/earthlike worlds. If you find a world that is identical to Earth, or very suitable for some other activity (ammonia gatheing? Evolved (non-sentient) life?)
- Meaningful factions
I remember when FD stated that selling to different factions would have some meaning. Why not making it so? Tie the faction power (in extent) to how much exploration data they got. Let Professor Palin be the top exploration guy to go to BECAUSE he's got 2% of galaxy scanned. Let the Empire/Alliance/Federation actually profit from the exploration data ("We got something you guys didn't even dream of").
- Some exploration focused modules
-> FSD booster - loads up while you jump around so you get a one time longer jump. Lets you get out of the bubble faster to get to uncharted territories faster, then explore and return faster. Like 500ly boost one time to get out, then explore, then 500ly jump to get back faster. May be dangerous (damage your ship) if you want more than 500ly, etc.
-> Some module that works either like a DSS and ADS scanner in one, or anything that lets you "share" module space. For example shields that are weaker but have 2T cargo space (that may be a bad example but still). I just want to have minimal cargo space in case I find something.
- More (ANY?) exploration focused engineer blueprints
This is a sketchy one and subject to balance run but I'd love to have some of those availible:
-> Longer range DSS scanner
-> Faster DSS scanner
-> Thrusters that let you slow down and accelerate faster (either in planetary gravity wells or just all around)
-> A DSS/ADS that automatically runs a DSS on planets in 20/50 ls range of target scan (Helps a LOT with scanning giants with lots of moons or planets really close to stars). It can either work on a "this body is interesting, run a full DSS scan on it" basis, or just get a full DSS scan already. We're exploring a lot and scanning giants moons is a chore.
-> Shields that protect you from heat damage (from stars when scooping) / Shields that protect you from planetary collisions better (for the hot landings)
-> Blueprints for fuel tanks - Increasing fuel effectiveness by X%, so you can jump more before you need to scoop.
- Finally, some ideas for in bubble exploration - read: fantasy realm (mainly for newer players, this borders on spying?)
-> Oh, there's a combat zone/capital ship here. Let me sell that data to opposing faction.
-> I've found a planet with lots of arsenic on it (yup), let me sell that data, and let others buy it so they can find out ingame not on forums/reddit
-> I got a great pristine ring with 200% paladium droprate. Should I sell it (for loads of credits), so pirates/players appear, or just mine the hell and be happy?
-> (powerplay) I'm in a system that's being exploited by another power. And there's 5 more players of opposing faction here. Hell, let's sell that!
-> Hey, I found an ancient site/evolving life/alien civilization/something something thargoids, let me sell that information.
TLDR: Don't make exploration harder and increase payouts. Most of us don't do it for the credits. We do it for the thrill of something never seen before. For the views and beauty of the game. For future players and future events. And some other ideas.
1. The scanner discussion
What I propose is basically this:
Basically you keep different scanner ranges. The difference is that you only get information about bodies scanned within your scanner range. As a plus for new and aspiring explorers out there, you DO get to see the rest of the bodies on the system map. They are just grayed out, so you have to close in to them to do a honk.
Bodies scanned always show in system map and in planet zoom (body surface features).
WHY?
I remember the time when I was exploring with a basic scanner. It was fun. Soon I realized I can find planets outside my scan range thanks to the magic of paralax. Just fly out far enough and eyeball which dots move in regard to galaxy background. It was fun, rewarding, but really bad for my eyes and time consuming. Let's lend a hand to those poorer/beginner explorers and show them there is more than just the scan. Just go to the planets and make more scans. You just don't know what you'll find. This hopefully lets players start exploring long before they can afford better scanners.
2. Additional features and DSS
No promises and no ETA of course. This has been suggested a lot in the thread, that's just my quickly made viz of what I imagine.
Detailed surface scans give you a number of things (as many of you said before):
- Materials distribution (based on tectonics, etc)
- Points of interest - details lower
- Surface conflict zones
- Anything the future might bring (I won't dwell on this, cause FD knows what they're doing)
This is a quick mockup of how you could click on a material in the planetary zoom mode and get a rough estimate of where you can find them on a planet. No more sensless buggying around to find that arsenic. This of course creates opportunities for some emergent gameplay:
- Maybe the richest spots are guarded?
- Maybe it's restricted
- Maybe there's a minig base there that's controlled by an unfriendly faction
- Et cetera..
POIs
Let the DDS show potential POIs, but - only spots if they're big enough.
For example:
- A small circle POI: Probably a surface base as it generates a lot of scanner noise
- A large circle POI: There's something there, just look around the area (wreckage etc)
- A planet wide POI: There's definately something faint there (barnacles, ancient sites, some faint signal) - I WANT TO KNOW THAT
The key here would be a mechanism to further locate the position of POIs (To an extent). The closer you get to a POI the smaller the potential position circle gets, so the flow goes like this:
1. Detailed scan -> No POIs -> Allright, let's get scanning another planet.
2. Detailed scan -> Some small/large POIs -> It's interesting, I'll go closer to take a look/Forget it
3. Detailed scan -> Planet wide POI -> Oh god, god, I need to find it and check out what it is -> VROOM
That's my take on what scanning should be in the future.
3. Some more suggestions for exploration (These are loosely based on my travels, adventures, ideas and so on)
- Rebuy screen
The dreaded sight for any explorer, either out in the dark or coming back. Please, please let us drop "Small/Large Survey Caches" that are only pickable by us. If you die you don't loose AS MUCH (1 month of exploration due to me being killed with no warning when I got back to the bubble). The data can be corrupted (20-50% scanned data lost), but please, let us regain what we worked hard for. It's a long time getting exploration data. It's a very short time dying and loosing everything (still salty about that). If you die then just BOOKMARK the system you died in with "Exploration Survey Cache HERE".
- Random bonus scans
Here's what I have in mind. Imagine you're out in the dark, scanning a gas giant with 3 asteroid rings. Then suddenly a notification pops up with "Unusual ring signature detected". Then you can actually scan the rings (With DDS) and you get for example "Paladium rich ring detected" - That means that you get a 50/100/200% more chance of paladium dropping when you mine there. Of course the scan data gets that much more valuable.
This would also make scanning bubble systems (or nearby bubble systems) that much more appealing.
Same goes for example with specific metal/water/ammonia/earthlike worlds. If you find a world that is identical to Earth, or very suitable for some other activity (ammonia gatheing? Evolved (non-sentient) life?)
- Meaningful factions
I remember when FD stated that selling to different factions would have some meaning. Why not making it so? Tie the faction power (in extent) to how much exploration data they got. Let Professor Palin be the top exploration guy to go to BECAUSE he's got 2% of galaxy scanned. Let the Empire/Alliance/Federation actually profit from the exploration data ("We got something you guys didn't even dream of").
- Some exploration focused modules
-> FSD booster - loads up while you jump around so you get a one time longer jump. Lets you get out of the bubble faster to get to uncharted territories faster, then explore and return faster. Like 500ly boost one time to get out, then explore, then 500ly jump to get back faster. May be dangerous (damage your ship) if you want more than 500ly, etc.
-> Some module that works either like a DSS and ADS scanner in one, or anything that lets you "share" module space. For example shields that are weaker but have 2T cargo space (that may be a bad example but still). I just want to have minimal cargo space in case I find something.
- More (ANY?) exploration focused engineer blueprints
This is a sketchy one and subject to balance run but I'd love to have some of those availible:
-> Longer range DSS scanner
-> Faster DSS scanner
-> Thrusters that let you slow down and accelerate faster (either in planetary gravity wells or just all around)
-> A DSS/ADS that automatically runs a DSS on planets in 20/50 ls range of target scan (Helps a LOT with scanning giants with lots of moons or planets really close to stars). It can either work on a "this body is interesting, run a full DSS scan on it" basis, or just get a full DSS scan already. We're exploring a lot and scanning giants moons is a chore.
-> Shields that protect you from heat damage (from stars when scooping) / Shields that protect you from planetary collisions better (for the hot landings)
-> Blueprints for fuel tanks - Increasing fuel effectiveness by X%, so you can jump more before you need to scoop.
- Finally, some ideas for in bubble exploration - read: fantasy realm (mainly for newer players, this borders on spying?)
-> Oh, there's a combat zone/capital ship here. Let me sell that data to opposing faction.
-> I've found a planet with lots of arsenic on it (yup), let me sell that data, and let others buy it so they can find out ingame not on forums/reddit
-> I got a great pristine ring with 200% paladium droprate. Should I sell it (for loads of credits), so pirates/players appear, or just mine the hell and be happy?
-> (powerplay) I'm in a system that's being exploited by another power. And there's 5 more players of opposing faction here. Hell, let's sell that!
-> Hey, I found an ancient site/evolving life/alien civilization/something something thargoids, let me sell that information.
TLDR: Don't make exploration harder and increase payouts. Most of us don't do it for the credits. We do it for the thrill of something never seen before. For the views and beauty of the game. For future players and future events. And some other ideas.
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...er it's a suggestion? You change exploration from 'jump honk' to something that requires thought and skill, then you scale the rewards appropriately.
Sure, but others that read this thread may not know.
I don’t doubt that, but I think “players who aren't sufficiently invested in the game as to even look at the official forums” (to quote your previous post) aren’t likely to even know the said feature was at any moment not behind the said timesink (a timesink which, after all, has existed in the game since before 1.0).
DeathStroke
Banned
Well, that takes the last of the fun out of exploration for me, looking at the cool planets that appear after I honk, won't be doing exploration ever again (unless this gets fixed), GG Frontier (or is it really Microsoft by now?)