The Star Citizen Thread v5

[MTBFritz]

Got to say I have seen some pretty toxic threads from both pro and con SC fans but this one is something special!

First of all the average MMO cost point has been discussed to death and its funny people keep bringing it up when the answer always stays the same. Is it amnesia or do you not see the logic of the replies? Other MMOs of which many by the way did not cost as much as SC to date had to offer MORE content this far into development. Star Citizen has almost nothing to offer in its 7th year of development and lots of core mechanics are either broken or missing. There simply is no comparison to anything on the market to date except for the failures and cons in history.

As far as toxicity goes....you are either turning a blind eye or you dont see a lot of forums. The RIS forum is by far the most toxic place I ve ever seen. A close second are random SC topic comment sections where the SC horde loses all human empathy and turns into a raging mob.

The funny thing is that there ARE a lot of experienced game developers in the discussion but of course their opinions and explanations dont count because they are not putting the "game" on a pedestial but dare to mention critical problems and worries.....the horror. It must be a real sting in a whiteknights side that this forum allows all opinions.

We do have some pretty hardcore whiteknights in this discussion at the moment trying to present themselves as "neutral" but really, its hillarious to see them trying to twist and deflect and bring up complete gibberish in order to justify the "thing" SC represents.

Take the marketing costs out of the equation, and Star Citizen would currently be the 2nd most expensive game developed in HISTORY... and it's only getting more so as people continue to provide CIG more cash to make this "game".

Just underlining the other side this means. If you take out marketing it means that pretty much EVERY OTHER COMPANY can produce more with less.......ouch

So please, enough with the frankly ridiculous comparisons to game projects that have actually a) MADE A GAME and b) been finished (mostly) on time and on budget. It's disingenuous to the extreme to do so!

Its not that we didnt have this exact topic a few times already during this thread and its predecessors but maybe he simply didnt read that far back and is fresh to the discussion so feels the need to bring up topics that are beaten to death a dozen times....


Sometimes I wonder if the defense for SC is actually an anti-bully reflex kicking in simply because there are so many people in this thread arguing against it and the few folks who "stand up for the game" (not Rolan btw) dont have anything to contribute other then trying to level the sides somehow. Its hilarious that their arguments and posting tactics only underly how broken and sad SC in its current state really is.

This is what I mean by superdev or armchair dev

Oh you mean 80+% of the pro-SC fanbase who can bring up explanations and excuses on a whim and obviously are intimatly familiar with the inner workins of CiG in order to be able to speak for Chris Roberts? THOSE superdevs and armchair devs? Or is your view so twisted that you only mean the people who speak AGAINST the project? Maybe you should try actually reading what these people have to say because their posts are at least anchored in reality and are not based on pure faith and desperation.

This thread may have started as something else but it has since devolved into lets all hold hands and bash and hate on SC. Can you really deny it?

Its just that over the years CiG has done everything in its power to actually confirm the worries and doubts of this thread and the constant bashing and ribbing SC gets here is due to the fact that it DESERVES it due to the failures and lies that are uncovered. Star Citizen may have started as a real game but it has since devolved in a JPEG sale lets all hold hands and pray that the second coming is actually happening. Can you really deny it?

So, ok- when would be the release date for SC?

Standard pro-SC fan reply: "When its done"

Which actually resets a few hundred pages of this thread and lets us go round and round another time because we ve been at this point dozens of time already and if ONE thing remains constant its the inability to answer it.

Really there you have it you guys just want to bash on SC

I d rather discuss the game but fact is that it needs heavy rose-collored glasses or an unshakable belief into fiction in order to see anything positive about it by now. The facts we have access to speak for themselves and actually result in the negative tone, thats not the people who want to "bash the game" as you put it. Its just that reviewing Star Citizen realistically results in a negative review. Then add all the worries based on non-existing answers or wish-wash statements given by the chairman. Really...its not the people in this thread. There simply is nothing else you can say if you are able to keep your feet on the ground.

Heavy use of "lol" at the start and end of lines only enforces the sense of desperation emanating from whoever uses them.....

So, anything interesting happening in the development of SC?

Its kinda sad that the current news and entertainment value comes from the posts and behaviour of pro-SC fans and not from the game itself. In fact....its pretty silent around Star Citizen when you cut out the propaganda videos showing up all over the place.

 

[Tippis]

Oh cut the crap tippis:

I will when you apologise, how about that?

Really you weren't being hostile here

I don't know what world you live in where agreeing with someone is the same as being hostile, and how quoting and responding to someone who isn't you is somehow “taking what you said”.

I explained what I meant

…and I wasn't quoting you or talking to you. And yet, you went off and started accusing me of all kinds of nonsense for no sane or sensible reason whatsoever. Calling you hostile because you start shouting at me for talking to another poster is not hypocritical — it's stating a fact.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Except you're exaggerating things a little IMO.

Sure they will use PG but they have also said there will be handcrafted "areas" which goes back to what LeSabre posted. Tell me You do you think we can't have both?

Why can't we have segments of empty space with nuggets of handcrafted alien civilizations etc etc in them?

Don't get me wrong I don't expect every area to be full of life and hand crafted...

Sure you can. The problem lies in the numbers. You could have some handcrafted 'hubs', and major locations related to whatever main story SC will have. But lets look at how the gameplay work out as a run-of-the-mill explorer: you are bumbling through unchartered space (lets assume for a sec there actually will be unchartered space), as 100.000 commandos do in different regions of unchartered space. What are the odds CIG can handcraft stuff for all of you to find? Zero. So you'll either be a tourist, visiting the few handcrafted spots found by people, or you'll be exploring PG content on your own.

That is why handcrafting stuff works for a single player 'space exploration' game where everyone is the first to discover everything, but doesnt work for MMO exploration. If you find PG dull or boring, the only solution is to improve the PG techniques. And keep in mind that AFAIK 'MMO exploration' is in and of itself a very new genre. While space clearly provides a lot of, err, space of exploration, it simultaneously rules out a strong reliance on handcrafted content. But sure, some parts can definitely be handcrafted, and I hope both SC and ED will do that. While making the best PG tech possible.

 

[Yaffle]

All

Calm down and cut out the personal comments and sniping. Discuss the topic, not each other.

 

[Tippis]

Sure you can. The problem lies in the numbers. You could have some handcrafted 'hubs', and major locations related to whatever main story SC will have. But lets look at how the gameplay work out as a run-of-the-mill explorer: you are bumbling through unchartered space (lets assume for a sec there actually will be unchartered space), as 100.000 commandos do in different regions of unchartered space. What are the odds CIG can handcraft stuff for all of you to find? Zero. So you'll either be a tourist, visiting the few handcrafted spots found by people, or you'll be exploring PG content on your own.

That is why handcrafting stuff works for a single player 'space exploration' game where everyone is the first to discover everything, but doesnt work for MMO exploration. If you find PG dull or boring, the only solution is to improve the PG techniques. And keep in mind that AFAIK 'MMO exploration' is in and of itself a very new genre. While space clearly provides a lot of, err, space of exploration, it simultaneously rules out a strong reliance on handcrafted content. But sure, some parts can definitely be handcrafted, and I hope both SC and ED will do that. While making the best PG tech possible.

EVE offers a good illustration of this problem. It has hundreds of hand-crafted sites to discover, and does its best to spawn enough to keep everyone occupied (if they were to spread out… which they don't, but that's in large part a social issue rather than purely a game-mechanical one). It even tries to offer some variety by changing what you can find depending on where you are.

…but it's still just hundreds of hand-crafted sites. Go down the exploration path long enough (which isn't all that long, it turns out), and you'll soon have seen them all. Worse still, those attempts at creating variety means that there's even less to see in practice because you have to travel so far to get to a different area. If you can even get there, since the inhabitants or owners of that space might not want you there.

The mission system suffers from the same problem (and a slew of other ones, but that's a different topic): in spite of having hundreds of them, you will most likely have seen every mission the game has on offer within just a few weeks, and creating more is not just a chore for the developers, but doesn't add much for the player — it's a dozen more in a rotation of maybe a hundred, so chances of coming across them are slim, and once you do, they're not new any more either. In later years, they tried to mix things up with some randomisation of spawns and triggers, but it's still just the same sites and the same missions, and you'll know them by heart in very short order.

 

[Mu77ley]

I think SC WILL have themepark elements along with sandbox ones. Take squadron 42 for example, I have pretty much no doubt it will be themepark missions.

Squadron 42 != Star Citizen.

Squadron 42 is a single-player only railroaded story game. Once you've completed it there will be absolutely no reason to replay it, just like all those other single-player only railroaded story games.

 

[Space Dandy]

Sure you can. The problem lies in the numbers. You could have some handcrafted 'hubs', and major locations related to whatever main story SC will have. But lets look at how the gameplay work out as a run-of-the-mill explorer: you are bumbling through unchartered space (lets assume for a sec there actually will be unchartered space), as 100.000 commandos do in different regions of unchartered space. What are the odds CIG can handcraft stuff for all of you to find? Zero. So you'll either be a tourist, visiting the few handcrafted spots found by people, or you'll be exploring PG content on your own.

That is why handcrafting stuff works for a single player 'space exploration' game where everyone is the first to discover everything, but doesnt work for MMO exploration. If you find PG dull or boring, the only solution is to improve the PG techniques. And keep in mind that AFAIK 'MMO exploration' is in and of itself a very new genre. While space clearly provides a lot of, err, space of exploration, it simultaneously rules out a strong reliance on handcrafted content. But sure, some parts can definitely be handcrafted, and I hope both SC and ED will do that. While making the best PG tech possible.

I disagree. I think it's possible to put in some limited handcrafted areas. I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure most of uncharted space will probably PG But I think it fairly doable to handcraft some nuggets in there.

Also when I said hand crafted area I was indeed talking about hubs. I don't see why CIG can't have some PG uncharted space and then go in a do some few areas over by hand of just tweak them to be "special" so to speak.

I like to explore but I frankly don't care if I am not the first one there as long as there is something interesting there for me to see or interact with.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Has there been any talk about crime and punishment, given the apparent discarding of the pvp slider and the current single system? Getting pariah status and being unable to dock anywhere but Grimhex will make life a bit awkward...

 

[Tippis]

I disagree. I think it's possible to put in some limited handcrafted areas. I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure most of uncharted space will probably PG But I think it fairly doable to handcraft some nuggets in there.

The problem with special nuggets (from an exploration standpoint) is that they will not be special for long. Not just from the perspective of losing their special status since they'll be discovered instantly on release, especially in a small world, but also because, even if you don't care about being first, once you've found them, you've… well… found them. So the next time, they're not special any more.

In fact, they'll be less special than PG content exactly because they're hand-crafted: nothing will change. It'll be the same experience as the first time, and before long that special nugget will be a rote grind the likes of which not even a bajillion similarly pink-shaded ice planets can compete with.

Almost by its very nature, exploration in a sandbox (to say nothing of a multiplayer game) pretty much has to be PG, or it won't last past the first week. That works for your average mid-priced shovelware single-player game (since those only last a week anyway); it won't work for anything with any kind of ambition of longevity.

 

[Space Dandy]

The problem with special nuggets (from an exploration standpoint) is that they will not be special for long. Not just from the perspective of losing their special status since they'll be discovered instantly on release, especially in a small world, but also because, even if you don't care about being first, once you've found them, you've… well… found them. So the next time, they're not special any more.

In fact, they'll be less special than PG content exactly because they're hand-crafted: nothing will change. It'll be the same experience as the first time, and before long that special nugget will be a rote grind the likes of which not even a bajillion similarly pink-shaded ice planets can compete with.

That's the thing as an explorer I don't care if I am not the first special snowflake to find something. Dunno but this might be new to you but lots of people play mmo's solo especially explorers. Something isn't "special" to me because OMG I was the first one to find it.


I have played lots of mmos and new areas to me are still special and worth seeing even if 150k other saw it first and did quests there or explored there. What this comes down to is personal preference not the ability or not to do it.

Myself I would prefer some hand crafted nuggets to a baijjilion PG beige pink shaded planets. Better yet why not have some of both.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I disagree. I think it's possible to put in some limited handcrafted areas. I think you are misunderstanding what I mean. Sure most of uncharted space will probably PG But I think it fairly doable to handcraft some nuggets in there.

Also when I said hand crafted area I was indeed talking about hubs. I don't see why CIG can't have some PG uncharted space and then go in a do some few areas over by hand of just tweak them to be "special" so to speak.

I like to explore but I frankly don't care if I am not the first one there as long as there is something interesting there for me to see or interact with.

Huh? I literally say they can put in some handcrafted areas. :S

I agree, I think I dont understand your view fully. You started by saying that exploration in ED feels empty, and somewhat generic. Which is true, most of space is PG and only some nuggest are handcrafted (alien ruins, FR bases). You said you liked the 'handcrafted approach' of SC better. I explain that that is not feasible if the game is to ever expand beyond half a system in size: you'll end up with just PG space and some nuggets of handcrafted stuff. You say that'd be alright with you.

Which means you're back to where you were at the start, which is the ED situation. Which will feel mostly empty and generic, as most of it is empty and PG. If you want to have a vastly different experience way more than 'some' areas need to be handcrafted, and we just agreed that that is not feasible. So I am not seeing what it is your hoping for when it comes to exploration in SC. Keep in mind that 'mostly PG with some nuggets' is exactly what you have right now in ED...

 

[Tippis]

I have played lots of mmos and new areas to me are still special and worth seeing even if 150k other saw it first and did quests there or explored there. What this comes down to is personal preference not the ability or not to do it.

Myself I would prefer some hand crafted nuggets to a baijjilion PG beige pink shaded planets. Better yet why not have some of both.

But that's just it: your nuggets won't be new — not even to you — and you'll run out in very short order. So whether being the first to discover matters to you or not, the problem is the same: handcrafting is a whole lot of work for very dubious returns. For hubs and areas that have an express purpose to serve as far as providing specific experiences, or player guidance, or something similar, sure, then it's worth it: you need that level of control anyway to provide those things. That's why even PG-heavy games will have static, pre-baked areas where the developer crafts exactly what they want the player to see (eg. towns, bases, core star systems, or whatever is suitable for the game's theme).

But once you go beyond that need for control, you run the very real risk of spending tons of effort on something that cannot vary, and which therefore quickly becomes even less interesting than the repetition PG spits out, at which point you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it or if you should just refine the PG.

 

[Space Dandy]

Huh? I literally say they can put in some handcrafted areas. :S

I agree, I think I dont understand your view fully. You started by saying that exploration in ED feels empty, and somewhat generic. Which is true, most of space is PG and only some nuggest are handcrafted (alien ruins, FR bases). You said you liked the 'handcrafted approach' of SC better. I explain that that is not feasible if the game is to ever expand beyond half a system in size: you'll end up with just PG space and some nuggets of handcrafted stuff. You say that'd be alright with you.

Which means you're back to where you were at the start, which is the ED situation. Which will feel mostly empty and generic, as most of it is empty and PG. If you want to have a vastly different experience way more than 'some' areas need to be handcrafted, and we just agreed that that is not feasible. So I am not seeing what it is your hoping for when it comes to exploration in SC.

That's what I have been saying mostly all along, I never said I wanted everything to be handcrafted. You bring up ED, I am not bashing ED, but when I explore in it it's like meh cause I know I will not find much that is different from the previous 12345 system previously explored.

In SC I think in SC it will be different and that difference makes the game "feel" less empty to me. Like I said though much of this and what you will "feel" comes down to personal preference.

You say it's not feasible and I say I don't agree.


Some other poster asked me to post what I liked I replied, this poster then asked me to explain "feels empty". You need to understand feeling are neither right nor wrong and not everyone will "feel" the same way about everything.

 

[Space Dandy]

But that's just it: your nuggets won't be new — not even to you — and you'll run out in very short order. So whether being the first to discover matters to you or not, the problem is the same: handcrafting is a whole lot of work for very dubious returns. For hubs and areas that have an express purpose to serve as far as providing specific experiences, or player guidance, or something similar, sure, then it's worth it: you need that level of control anyway to provide those things. That's why even PG-heavy games will have static, pre-baked areas where the developer crafts exactly what they want the player to see (eg. towns, bases, core star systems, or whatever is suitable for the game's theme).

But once you go beyond that need for control, you run the very real risk of spending tons of effort on something that cannot vary, and which therefore quickly becomes even less interesting than the repetition PG spits out, at which point you have to ask yourself if it's really worth it or if you should just refine the PG.

Do you plan on playing the same game foreever? If not why does everything have to be "new"? I want my time in the game to be interesting I don't care if the game doesn't hold my interest for 10 years but the time I do spend in it I want to be fun for me.

You say the handcrafted areas will grow old but then but PG repetition wont...read my lips we can have both it doesn't have to be JUST pg and that is all I have been saying.

 

[Ian Skippy]

In SC I think in SC it will be different and that difference makes the game "feel" less empty to me. Like I said though much of this and what you will "feel" comes down to personal preference.

You say it's not feasible and I say I don't agree.

Feelings/preferences and all that are indeed not right or wrong. However, CIG being able to create what you want is a question to which there is a correct answer. We may not yet know which it is, and we may disagree on what we think is most likely the correct answer, but there is ultimately a correct one. What I wonder is why you think it is feasible. It seems that the experience you expect has never been delivered by anyone else, and I just dont see what in the last seven years and in the current PU makes you feel that it is going to happen for you. I can see why ME4 may be right up your alley, but I just cant see what inspires hope in you as far as SC is concerned? After all, they have very little actual handcrafted stuff, there are no exploration mechanics (not even proposed), there seems to be literally nothing to suggest what you want will be in SC in any shape or form?

 

[Tippis]

Do you plan on playing the same game foreever? If not why does everything have to be "new"? I want my time in the game to be interesting I don't care if the game doesn't hold my interest for 10 years but the time I do spend in it I want to be fun for me.

No, but I prefer to have it hold my interest for more than a week or so, at least if it's supposed to be a sandbox game — even more so if it's supposed to provide that experience in a multiplayer environment. If I want something short, there are tons of games with exquisitely hand-crafted everythings in them, and they will beat the snot out of anything procgenned every time… but only until they're consumed.

You say the handcrafted areas will grow old but then but PG repetition wont...read my lips we can have both it doesn't have to be JUST pg and that is all I have been saying.

…and the counter-argument is: why? Sure, it doesn't have to be all PG, but why wouldn't it be? What do you actually gain? Why waste so much time and effort on something that by very design won't last and which will end up far more boring than something that takes less time and effort? Hell, just put the same work into the ploppables that the PG will distribute, and you instantly have far more fun-bang for your fun-bucks. They'll still grow old, sure, but at least now they might see some variety in context that delays that outcome.

 

[Space Dandy]

Feelings/preferences and all that are indeed not right or wrong. However, CIG being able to create what you want is a question to which there is a correct answer. We may not yet know which it is, and we may disagree on what we think is most likely the correct answer, but there is ultimately a correct one. What I wonder is why you think it is feasible. It seems that the experience you expect has never been delivered by anyone else, and I just dont see what in the last seven years and in the current PU makes you feel that it is going to happen for you. I can see why ME4 may be right up your alley, but I just cant see what inspires hope in you as far as SC is concerned? After all, they have very little actual handcrafted stuff, there are no exploration mechanics (not even proposed), there seems to be literally nothing to suggest what you want will be in SC in any shape or form?

I agree we don't know what will happen yet we can only speculate and assume. I am trying not to do that the game is still being developed and there have been some changes for the better like them switching to amazon servers and how they have increased the availability of them.

Frankly if they just come out with squadron 42 I will have had my moneys worth cause while I am a backer I haven't forked over hundreds of bucks to them.

Now will SC flop or not, will it be all PG or not none of us knows. SC has been slow going and that surely not a good sign yet they are still going forwards no on can deny they haven't been adding stuff and no one can deny they are still working on the game.

That's what I base my "hopes", might be kind of a strong word dunno, on. I will not get all doom and gloom anymore than I will get all praise the lord SC is here either.

 

[dsmart]

Same place as most other games that keep persisting. Further sales.

I mean if they can get squadron 42 out the door I am sure there plenty of space game fans will buy, speaking of those that haven't pledged/ bought or had a monetary interaction with CIG yet. Which I am sure there are plenty due to them being wary due to the drama surround SC.

Sales of what?

Which other PC games you know of, average $35m a year?

Which metrics have you seen, that lead you to believe that SQ42 is going to sell those kind of numbers, beyond those who have already pre-paid andcare entitled to it?

Have you seen the sales figures for ED?

 

[Space Dandy]

No, but I prefer to have it hold my interest for more than a week or so, at least if it's supposed to be a sandbox game — even more so if it's supposed to provide that experience in a multiplayer environment. If I want something short, there are tons of games with exquisitely hand-crafted everythings in them, and they will beat the snot out of anything procgenned every time… but only until they're consumed.


…and the counter-argument is: why? Sure, it doesn't have to be all PG, but why wouldn't it be? What do you actually gain? Why waste so much time and effort on something that by very design won't last and which will end up far more boring than something that takes less time and effort? Hell, just put the same work into the ploppables that the PG will distribute, and you instantly have far more fun-bang for your fun-bucks. They'll still grow old, sure, but at least now they might see some variety in context that delays that outcome.

My target for game holding my interest is something like tween 1 to 6 years, it will vary greatly between that. I backed SC for about what I pay for a single player game, any time the mmo side of it holds my interest is a bonus. Then I will move on like I do for any other mmo or single player game.

Why wouldn't it be all PG or better yet why shouldn't it?

Because it something I would enjoy and I know many other out there would enjoy that too, It doesn't have to take anything away from those that want PG content.

Seems I recall they are working on making PG content less bland and repetitive so it wouldn't take anything away from that but like you say they can only do so much on that front.

You tell me why they shouldn't have any hand crafted areas beyond your fears it will reduce their work on PG?

 

[VidarSnipes]

I'd like just remind ya'll that COD:IW, an entry in a wildly popular series with a blend of space and FPS combat, has sold less than 400k copies on Steam (370k according to this site:http://steamspy.com/app/292730). I don't see why SQ42 should be wildly more popular than that. Additional 18 million dollars isn't anything to sneer at, but CIG's UK studio has used up more money than that in a year, and they're about a half of their total workforce.