Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

[WR3ND]

One of the gas giants and several other large objects were found by their gravity. It's entirely realistic. I agree though that if you can see an object that it should be easily resolved without have to hunt too much for it, but that would require using some sort of parallax to distinguish foreground planets from background stars (which is how the ancients found the "wandering" planets in the first place). I don't think most people want to use Stone Age tech to find stuff as a primary mechanic... that's been well established.

Right, but one would assume that our high tech sci-fi exploration kit would be light-years ahead (double entendre intended) at spotting worlds in a system. In this context, I think the basic "honk" we have now actually makes more sense, though maybe just without resolving more of the specifics. That's why I think having either black bodies, or maybe something like monochrome bodies after the honk would work.

Resolve all the other info (except surface mapping) with spectrum analyzers, etc., on the new map to "discover" the stars or worlds, or just fly your ship out to them and see for yourself.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Right, but one would assume that our high tech sci-fi exploration kit would be light-years ahead (double entendre intended) at spotting worlds in a system. In this context, I think the basic "honk" we have now actually makes more sense, though maybe just without resolving more of the specifics. That's why I think having either black bodies, or maybe something like monochrome bodies after the honk would work.

Resolve all the other info (except surface mapping) with spectrum analyzers, etc., on the new map to "discover" the stars or worlds, or just fly your ship out to them and see for yourself.

Give me the option to do 'science', but don't FORCE me to do it.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

You know, it's a pity there has to be money in this game. Well not really, but the problem is that too many people seem either openly or not so openly to be focussed on credits-per-hour. Or to put it another way, too many people are 'in' exploration for the moneh. Or the fame - First this or that.

Who cares?

Any change that allows me to believe I'm actually doing exploration - as opposed to mashing buttons - is a good thing. When it comes out, at first, like everybody else I will hate it. Because it's new and different and, and, and. In the end though, I'll take it. So will everybody else. I venture to suggest that eventually most of us will take to wondering why it wasn't this way to start with. All of which said, I must admit the OP's halfway house approach certainly has merit and I hope FDev have taken note.

 

[WR3ND]

...

Who cares?

...

About credits, beats me.

...

Any change that allows me to believe I'm actually doing exploration - as opposed to mashing buttons - is a good thing. When it comes out, at first, like everybody else I will hate it. Because it's new and different and, and, and. In the end though, I'll take it. So will everybody else. ...

I think a lot a people will leave it, or rather, leave more systems unexplored beyond just the basic honk. Going out to Beagle Point on DW2, I'm sure to check out much fewer systems than I would have otherwise.

 

[babelfisch]

About credits, beats me.



I think a lot a people will leave it, or rather, leave more systems unexplored beyond just the basic honk. Going out to Beagle Point on DW2, I'm sure to check out much fewer systems than I would have otherwise.

True, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[WR3ND]

True, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Jump honking along without spotting some cool systems here and there along the way doesn't really seem like an improvement either though.

As it is now with the honk I get a body count before even checking the system map. Little things like this go a long way toward peaking my interests or knowing if I should just move along and spend my time on the next system. Only so much time in the day, you know.

 

[babelfisch]

Jump honking along without spotting some cool systems here and there along the way doesn't really seem like an improvement either though.

As it is now with the honk I get a body count before even checking the system map. Little things like this go a long way toward peaking my interested or knowing if I should just move along and spend my time on the next system. Only so much time in the day, you know.

It's flawed analogy time:

Let's assume I am really interested in seeing stuff explode and the current combat mechanics would only consist of a single button that makes things explode. That way I can see lots and all sorts of interesting explosions all the time. Now Frontier decides to put all the current combat mechanics into the game, like maneuvering, using your pips and weapons, etc, you get the idea. I would no longer be able to see as many shiny explosions as I've seen before but the game itself would be way better because it finally consists of actual mechanics.

That's how I see the current discussion and I don't care if my view is flawed.

 

[Colonel Kenney]

I said the same thing immediately. Discover large bodies like regular but nothing about them.

 

[Ziljan]

Right, but one would assume that our high tech sci-fi exploration kit would be light-years ahead (double entendre intended) at spotting worlds in a system. In this context, I think the basic "honk" we have now actually makes more sense, though maybe just without resolving more of the specifics. That's why I think having either black bodies, or maybe something like monochrome bodies after the honk would work.

Resolve all the other info (except surface mapping) with spectrum analyzers, etc., on the new map to "discover" the stars or worlds, or just fly your ship out to them and see for yourself.

The current ADS honk makes zero sense actually. The information that it gives would require that the light and gravity coming from each object would have already been sampled and thoroughly analyzed, which is supposed to be what the whole DSS was for in the first place. Hence the current division of knowledge between the ADS and DSS is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

The only way to explain the silliness of the current ADS godseye is to invoke space magic, and say you can tell the color of objects by detecting their "gravitational chromatons" or some such nonsense, which is probably how you can scan the far side of planet and get a full color zoomable image with a star completely blocking your view of that planet...

Please, for the love of Dumbledore, no more automated space magic. The discovery process needs to involve the frontal lobe of our brains (not just the hind brain & the autonomic nervous system like it does now). Yes, a "black sphere" system could work, but only if it keeps the dynamic filters as necessary parts of the mechanic and not just a cut-n-paste from a priori system map info.

 

[WR3ND]

It's flawed analogy time:

Let's assume I am really interested in seeing stuff explode and the current combat mechanics would only consist of a single button that makes things explode. That way I can see lots and all sorts of interesting explosions all the time. Now Frontier decides to put all the current combat mechanics into the game, like maneuvering, using your pips and weapons, etc, you get the idea. I would no longer be able to see as many shiny explosions as I've seen before but the game itself would be way better because it finally consists of actual mechanics.

That's how I see the current discussion and I don't care if my view is flawed.

Nothing wrong with more mechanics, just applied in ways that make more sense and don't needlessly take away from other options and play styles.

Exploration credit farmers might actually have it better off with the new mechanics. I just want to have fun mucking around in my spaceship in and on some interesting things in space in ways that make some sort of sense in the game beyond the sake of gameplay mechanics.

 

[WR3ND]

The current ADS honk makes zero sense actually. ...

As applied in the game, we're of a different opinion on that matter for reasons I've already pointed out in the thread. Triangulated honks might make a bit more sense, but that's getting a bit... excessive, perhaps.

 

[Ziljan]

Nothing wrong with more mechanics, just applied in ways that make more sense and don't needlessly take away from other options and play styles.

Exploration credit farmers might actually have it better off with the new mechanics. I just want to have fun mucking around in my spaceship in and on some interesting things in space in ways that make some sort of sense in the game beyond the sake of gameplay mechanics.

I think this is how everyone feels. The current system is obviously not fulfilling this role, otherwise the exploration forum would be as active as Dangerous Discussions. Before the Q4 update was announced that forum was filled only with cobwebs and salty piles of dried tear residue covered in dust.

According to several polls, most players biggest interest is in exploration, and yet the number of people involved in exploration as a full time occupation appears to be slightly above the number of people who play CQC, and on par with the number of people who still play Power Play (which is considered "dead" by the vast majority of players). So clearly most people aren't having fun mucking around in their spaceships exploring the galaxy, and something radical has to change.

I do agree that the exploration mechanic needs to be better integrated into the rest of the game. I think that the mining expansion will do that nicely. And if they manage to include a colonization mechanic (via the fleet carriers?) then we'll really be into the healthy era of meaningful exploration.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

The current ADS honk makes zero sense actually. The information that it gives would require that the light and gravity coming from each object would have already been sampled and thoroughly analyzed, which is supposed to be what the whole DSS was for in the first place. Hence the current division of knowledge between the ADS and DSS is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

The only way to resolve the silliness of the current ADS godseye is to invoke space magic, and say you can tell the color of objects by detecting their "gravitational chromatons" or some such nonsense, which is probably how you can scan the far side of planet and get a full color zoomable image with a star completely blocking your view of that planet...

Please, for the love of Dumbledore, no more automated space magic. The discovery process needs to involve the frontal lobe of our brains (not just the hind brain & the autonomic nervous system like it does now).

I know you are either deliberately ignoring every post I make, or you have me on ignore, but I'll say this anyway...

I'm calling shenanigans.

So. In that post you are saying the ADS makes no sense. Yet earlier in this thread you posted this...

Yes, sort of. For clarity, it should be noted that the current scanners we have now are space magic that can see through solid objects. The scanners they are proposing seem to be based more on actual science of energy distributions. In astrophysics, these energy distributions are called "maxwell-boltzmann distributions" and the "energy" of a planet is measured by it's peak or total energy output. This energy output is measured in photons of light. The higher the energy, the higher the frequency of the photons. This the same way that colors of stars are determined, by their peak energy (photon) output in the visible spectrum. Red is lower energy. Blue is higher energy. Etc.

I am writing the above for other people reading the thread as I am sure you understand it because as you pointed out, even if we have futuristic graviton detectors on the ship (which it seems we do!) this wouldn't allow us to focus photons through a solid object into a zoomable picture.

And I responded (which you either read and completely ignored - again - or you have me on ignore) that you can say the current ADS relies on all these clever physics you cite. Right now.

Now, come on. If we're going down the route that the new system relies on Real Physics[tm] to do this job, why can't the current ADS also be relying on Real Physics[tm]? I'm calling shenanigans on your arguments throughout all these threads.

For example - the new ADS - if it relies on Real Physics[tm], relies on "maxwell-boltzmann distributions" and the "energy" of a planet is measured by it's peak or total energy output. This energy output is measured in photons of light. The higher the energy, the higher the frequency of the photons. This the same way that colors of stars are determined, by their peak energy (photon) output in the visible spectrum. Red is lower energy. Blue is higher energy. Etc., please tell me how the new ADS is going to be able to perform a detailed scan or zoom in on a selected system body, whilst your ship is stationary, but the selected system body you are zooming in on to get its Detailed Scan, is behind the star system's star relative to your ship? Wouldn't there be too much noise and interference from the massive ball of furious plasma sitting between you and the target body? I rather think there would be. Wouldn't it also not be possible to see what said body even looks like, considering the aforementioned ball of furious plasma is between your ship and it?

In other words, your suggestion for why the new ADS is better than the current ADS, is bunk. It will be just as much magic as the current ADS. Only this new body discovery magic will take longer to determine if the star system is worth exploring or not.

Absolute shenanigans.

 

[mossfoot]

I know you are either deliberately ignoring every post I make, or you have me on ignore, but I'll say this anyway...

I'm calling shenanigans.

So. In that post you are saying the ADS makes no sense. Yet earlier in this thread you posted this...



And I responded (which you either read and completely ignored - again - or you have me on ignore) that you can say the current ADS relies on all these clever physics you cite. Right now.

Now, come on. If we're going down the route that the new system relies on Real Physics[tm] to do this job, why can't the current ADS also be relying on Real Physics[tm]? I'm calling shenanigans on your arguments throughout all these threads.

For example - the new ADS - if it relies on Real Physics[tm], relies on "maxwell-boltzmann distributions" and the "energy" of a planet is measured by it's peak or total energy output. This energy output is measured in photons of light. The higher the energy, the higher the frequency of the photons. This the same way that colors of stars are determined, by their peak energy (photon) output in the visible spectrum. Red is lower energy. Blue is higher energy. Etc., please tell me how the new ADS is going to be able to perform a detailed scan or zoom in on a selected system body, whilst your ship is stationary, but the selected system body you are zooming in on to get its Detailed Scan, is behind the star system's star relative to your ship? Wouldn't there be too much noise and interference from the massive ball of furious plasma sitting between you and the target body? I rather think there would be. Wouldn't it also not be possible to see what said body even looks like, considering the aforementioned ball of furious plasma is between your ship and it?

In other words, your suggestion for why the new ADS is better than the current ADS, is bunk. It will be just as much magic as the current ADS. Only this new body discovery magic will take longer to determine if the star system is worth exploring or not.

Absolute shenanigans.

Tapping X repeatedly to break an interdiction and the current mechanic in the game would both achieve the same end and be about as difficult.

Which method feels more real? Which feels like it's a part of flying? Which method feels like you're actually breaking an interdiction?

Even if your core statement about the old and new method working the same way was true (which I doubt) The current ADS feels like space magic and the new method feels more grounded in SF.

Simple as that.

 

[Ziljan]

As applied in the game, we're of a different opinion on that matter for reasons I've already pointed out in the thread. Triangulated honks might make a bit more sense, but that's getting a bit... excessive, perhaps.

Triangulated honks could work because you'd have different gravitational readings and you'd have a baseline array for compiling a resolved image. The baseline, or distance between triangulation points acts a sort of virtual diameter for the resolution calculation allowing you to turn a half meter telescope into a AU sized telescope, for resolution purposes (not light gathering ability).

Even if your core statement about the old and new method working the same way was true (which I doubt) The current ADS feels like space magic and the new method feels more grounded in SF.

Whether the new scanners will be able to see through objects like the current magic scanners do is an open question. The game can tell that objects are in the way when you're trying to plan a high wake jump, but for some reason it doesn't say "scan target obscured" when you are trying to passively scan a targeted object. This is probably just a coding oversight, since the code obviously exists for active FSD charging.

 

[WR3ND]

Triangulated honks could work because you'd have different gravitational readings and you'd have a baseline array for compiling a resolved image. The baseline, or distance between triangulation points acts a sort of virtual diameter for the resolution calculation allowing you to turn a half meter telescope into a AU sized telescope, for resolution purposes (not light gathering ability).

...

Some of the stuff they can do these days even is pretty awesome. Given much higher resolutions, sample rates, and comparative processing in the future on the full spectrum of emissions including gravitational waves...

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;JWDocXPy-iQ]https://youtu.be/JWDocXPy-iQ[/video]

[video=youtube_share;EtsXgODHMWk]https://youtu.be/EtsXgODHMWk[/video]

That's getting into more of a tangent though regarding gameplay.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

<snip irrelevance>

Even if your core statement about the old and new method working the same way was true (which I doubt) The current ADS feels like space magic and the new method feels more grounded in SF.

Simple as that.

It's a delusion, though. It's going to perform the exact same function of body discovery, except that it is going to become slower than the current method, and that slowness is disguised behind a UI screen. I'm sure it will give the feeling of having some kind of agency and involvement in body discovery, but ultimately, it's nothing more than a time-eating delusion, and as such, is a downgrade of the current ADS system.

I'm sitting here absolutely aghast that some players are really that masochistic that they'd pay an actual time penalty for body discovery, just to have the delusion that what they're doing is Science!.

Ask yourself why, in popular sci-fi programs and films, we don't sit there and watch as a ship zips into some previously unknown star system, and spend the next 10-15 minutes watching the crew stand around waiting for some scanner to zoom in to every body in said star system and slowly build up a map of the system.

A: because that would be extremely boring!

Instead, the ship arrives, there's a couple of bleeps and bloops, and there we have it - "8 planets in this system, Captain. Planet two is a Class M, supporting human life. Also detecting an energy signal, Captain"

And the story continues. No sitting around for 30 minutes whilst a Science! Officer slowy builds up a system map, whilst everyone else orders a coffee. And that's precisely why it's going to very quickly become extremely boring for players of ED - except for the irrational and masochistic players, they'll lap this up (until they too finally realise not having a system map right after a honk is actually boring after all, especially the rigmarole of the delusional discovery minigame after the Nth boring time they see that bloody screen. But they won't want to admit it to themselves or others due to pride and hubris - instead they'll carry on flaying themselves, with a rictus grin of realisation. Meanwhile everyone else just absolutely hates it.)

The justifications for the new body discovery minigame are just nuts. It's absolute bunk. It's wacko.

 

[Maolagin]

In other words, your suggestion for why the new ADS is better than the current ADS, is bunk. It will be just as much magic as the current ADS. Only this new body discovery magic will take longer to determine if the star system is worth exploring or not.

Absolute shenanigans.

I'm mostly done responding to these exploration threads until we at least see some video of the new system in action. But, as an actual trained astronomer, this made me smile.

Yes, of course anything with remotely the capabilities of our beloved ADS is powered by high-grade space magic handwavium. Not because there's any specific property that is implausible to observe via remote sensing, although several of the things the scanners tell us would legitimately be pretty hard to get with today's technology. But the idea that almost any of these things could be measured instantly -- for values of "instant" that include anything less than several hours -- is fantasy. The astronomically reasonable version of this game would look something like "Fly a quick loop around the star with the telescope ports open, and the nav computer will point out the distance and direction to any detectable bodies. Detectability depends on distance, size, and temperature, and the longer you fly your loop the fainter your detection limits. From Sol you'll locate stuff like Jupiter or Venus almost immediately, distant gas giants and large asteroids in a few minutes, Pluto or Sedna or small moons in maybe a few hours because we're being generous and this is future-tech. No information about bodies beyond approximate size and maybe color."

That would be maybe interesting to some people once, but (like much real science at the day-to-day level) not very engaging game play.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

I'm mostly done responding to these exploration threads until we at least see some video of the new system in action. But, as an actual trained astronomer, this made me smile.

Yes, of course anything with remotely the capabilities of our beloved ADS is powered by high-grade space magic handwavium. Not because there's any specific property that is implausible to observe via remote sensing, although several of the things the scanners tell us would legitimately be pretty hard to get with today's technology. But the idea that almost any of these things could be measured instantly -- for values of "instant" that include anything less than several hours -- is fantasy. The astronomically reasonable version of this game would look something like "Fly a quick loop around the star with the telescope ports open, and the nav computer will point out the distance and direction to any detectable bodies. Detectability depends on distance, size, and temperature, and the longer you fly your loop the fainter your detection limits. From Sol you'll locate stuff like Jupiter or Venus almost immediately, distant gas giants and large asteroids in a few minutes, Pluto or Sedna or small moons in maybe a few hours because we're being generous and this is future-tech. No information about bodies beyond approximate size and maybe color."

That would be maybe interesting to some people once, but (like much real science at the day-to-day level) not very engaging game play.

This is a videogame which is meant to entertain. It's also a videogame which has 400 billion star systems in it. Billions of those star systems are red dwarfs with 8 snowballs on average, most of which are non-landable in my experience.

400 billion is a large number. Of course we'll never be able to visit them all in the videogame's lifetime, that's obvious. Nevertheless, one player can explore multiple thousands of star systems, and a large proportion of them aren't worth exploring further other than to acknowledge from a quick glance at the system map that this is so.

This new body discovery mechanic removes that quick decision. Ultimately it results in a massive waste of time, and it's frustrating because as I pointed out in my last post, it's nothing more than a time-eating delusion that you have some involvement in body discovery whereas all it is, is fooling yourself that this is so, and all it's doing is delaying the system map.

Madness.

 

[babelfisch]

Tapping X repeatedly to break an interdiction and the current mechanic in the game would both achieve the same end and be about as difficult.

Which method feels more real? Which feels like it's a part of flying? Which method feels like you're actually breaking an interdiction?

Even if your core statement about the old and new method working the same way was true (which I doubt) The current ADS feels like space magic and the new method feels more grounded in SF.

Simple as that.

'Hey Spock, please press the instantly reveal everything button!'

'Hey Spock, please analyse the electromagnetic spectrum!'