Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

Yeps, or the mysterious landing gear break effect in vacuum. [wacko]

Or cargo scoop. :D I just see those kind of things as kicking in the Flight Assist in various emergency protocols and whatnot.

There are at least some clever explanation attempts for SC one does not have to understand. Pure science fiction but probably the closest to justify faster than lightspeed "travel" without breaking GTR. I just still don't get what all this has to do with WWI fighters...

WWII fighters would work just as well. It's just that most of our combat is done in visual range, and despite what Top Gun might make you think, that's not generally how air to air combat works these days. The exception rather than the rule.

Combat with FA On is closer to Star Wars combat than anything (which of course is based on WWII fighters and bombers, Death Star Trench Run was brilliantly lifted from the original Dam Busters movie, pilot chatter included).

But by equating it with WWI (or even WWII), it does come across as mocking it, like we're playing SteamPunk instead. I know that's not what's intended, and, as I said, the comparison is fair. But we don't like to see it that way, any more than most of us like to see Star Wars as being more closely related to D&D than Star Trek ;)
 
I disagree. I've played Warbirds back in the days, crappy graphics (ok for these times) but commonly agreed as pretty accurate simulation of WWII planes. Since we have no atmospheres in ED a comparison is already nonsense from this point of view alone. The flight assist in ED is in my book nothing but an artificial training wheel to appeal the masses who usually expect a more arcade feel of "flying". Another reason why I think this comparison is nonsense cause FA On is actually masking the underlying flight model.

Btw, I strongly doubt you could hit anything from a distance of 2km or more with WWII warplanes.

I could go on but can't really bother cause nonsense keeps being nonsense, no matter how you look at it. [big grin]

Yes, but those WWII warplanes weren't the size of jumbo jets (Asp) or WWII aircraft carriers (Corvette) that could turn on a dime either ;)
 
Yeah, a fair amount might well be. That isn't how I get my kicks nor how I play the game though.

Don't know if 'how you play the game' is a good argument. You are only playing the game that way because the ADS never got out of placeholder state. That's like a blind man saying the world doesn't need art because he can't see it.

In other words, the current exploration 'mechanics' wouldn't even exist if Frontier did it right from the start. Just because you got used to the crap it doesn't mean it stops being crap.
 
System with 4 NS and 1BH within 30LS

You said on an earlier post that you found a ringed WD, Then u said about two systems- one with 4 NSs and 1BH within 30LS and another with 4 stars im super-close proximity to one another. Could you please give me the names of these oddities?
 
Posted this in another thread, now that we have a bit more info from the "exploration" video put out from Frontier, and thought it was just as relevant to post it here now...

Still not sure why there can't just be at least the main unresolved black body hollow targets on the system map and body count notification after the honk.

This is essentially what is on the new mapping screen anyway, only just tucked away a bit more, so not as much of a QoL feature as it currently is.

Also not a huge fan of "exploring" by parking my ship at a star, but for cataloging and finding POI I think it works fairly well. The new mapping system is more like astronomy or something. I mean, we do have rather capable spaceships that we can use to go check out things ourselves in first-person in the game. For me, that's more in-line with "exploration."

Also, if the main black bodies (worlds) are targetable on the system map, just have them highlighted on the new UI screen as well when targeted to resolve them there, if you'd like, instead of or in addition to flying out to them to better resolve them.

Once the main body is resolved, then the sub-bodies (moons) could be as well using the same methods.

I'm not seeing the conflict with this sort of option in gameplay and Commander agency terms. Just because I'm not left handed, it doesn't mean I can't play the fiddle.

...

Also, here's the video for those of you who might not have seen it yet...

[video=youtube_share;rtmmmP_waf4]https://youtu.be/rtmmmP_waf4[/video]
 
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What kind of information do you expect from these black bodies what the new system can't offer? Number of bodies perhaps? That's on the front right of the new exploration UI. So if it can't be that, what is it?

As a slightly related question: I don't know at which point the orrery will be visible. If it just comes when the system is 100% resolved then it's useless in this regard. But if sooner (and depending on how soon), it probably could act as a replacement for a quick look at orbital situations, if that's your main concern.

I would imagine the orrery would show what you have found in the scanner.
 
What kind of information do you expect from these black bodies what the new system can't offer? Number of bodies perhaps? That's on the front right of the new exploration UI. So if it can't be that, what is it?

As a slightly related question: I don't know at which point the orrery will be visible. If it just comes when the system is 100% resolved then it's useless in this regard. But if sooner (and depending on how soon), it probably could act as a replacement for a quick look at orbital situations, if that's your main concern.

I think it's about whether bodies are in interesting alignments.
Seeing a populated System Map, Orrery, and Nav Panel gives you a sense of that, even if they are Unknown Black Spheres.

Then different types of explorer can focus on what interests them:
- ELW or other specific body type hunters can focus on the waveforms
- Alignment hunters can focus on the map views.

This seems like a reasonable proposal to me, especially because the code already exists.
 
Couldn't this be realized with the orrery as well or instead? The orrery could start with all black spheres but their original orbits, then later be replaced with colored bodies after scanning. Not that I seriously want to propose this, just an idea...

Populate all three - system map, orrery, and nav panel with unknown objects.

Better to give multiple perspectives of different pieces of the picture than just railroad everyone down the same discovery path.
Doing the same thing over and over, regardless of how good it looks at first glance will get old eventually.

This provides multiple ways to assess whether a system is 'interesting' or not that should suit most explorer types.
 
Regardless our personal opinions, it's most unlikely that FD will start the Beta with such a - certainly not minor - design change. So the obligatory "let's check it out first" is all we have for now and our very own imagination that can hugely differ, depending on our playstyle.

True. I'm fairly happy with the new system.

However, the code for this does already exist - the system map with black bodies did happen in an earlier beta. So it could be a relatively small effort to reimplement.
The orrery is new so that might take longer - and to be fair we don't yet know how that gets populated.

I think the key perspective is that the honk does know where things are, because it populates the scanner view with the blue blobs. Representing that on the map views with black bodies doesn't seem like a big conceptual leap.
 
Hello,

I was one of the 17 individuals that were invited to Frontiers HQ a few weeks ago and after reading this thread I think there are a couple major things that everyone seems to be omitting.

The system map shows you bodies.

How does the system map show you the voyager probes, the generation ships, the space static discharges. It wont, but you can see their waveforms.

Also,

The new Honk > Waveform checking > Scan gameplay is only out in the black where no one else has ever been before.

If a player has been to the system before you ( and have turned that data in) , your system map is already going to be populated because it is shared. Once you learn where the Earthlike waveform is at, you are going to honk, look for that area on the bar, and if there is nothing there, head to the next system.


I see explorers as falling into one of four groups.

1) The people that don't

2) Travelers - the ones that take advantage of the honking as they travel from A to B.

3) The ones that look for things of interest. - The ones that are looking for the earth-likes, water-worlds, cool looking things to see/systems, etc

4) The One-hundred per-centers.


For each of these, I only see net positives for each, yeah, there might be pluses and minuses when it comes to time spent, but overall for each level is a net time saved, which for gameplay the user can do more during their game play time and less time is wasted

Let me go into a bit more detail:

1) The people that don't

Because of the new community shared mapping, the people that never explore wont be required to do most of the stuff, they jump into a system, the system map has already been populated, they dont need to even honk anymore because it is already there. The majority of populated systems and most of the systems between those in the bubble are going to already be mapped out for these players. Even if they do decided to go somewhere, they will have the major straight lines between the Bubble, Colonia and Sag A* already mapped for them. and then they move into category 2.

2) Travelers - the ones that take advantage of the honking as they travel from A to B.

These players will still be receiving the same credits that they do in the current system, the honk still gets the commander the same amount of credits as the current system. If they decide to take a look around they move into category 3

3) The ones that look for things of interest. - The ones that are looking for the earth-likes, water-worlds, cool looking things/systems, etc

Here is the only time there is a negative ( in a single type of scenario, read to end, the end net is positive. )

If you jump into the system and honk, and glance at the wave form, once you understand that a waveform in a specific area is the Earth-like, that will be the one that people are looking for. Skill based gameplay, just like learning what the different bands on the SRV wave-scanner meant.

Now, the Honk, the scan of the waveforms, ident of something and finding it. At this point the commander can point at it, scan it and get all the details on it. They will leave that screen and then start flying to it to launch probes to get that mapping tier as well.

An Earth-like is still 4-6000 k out, it still takes time to fly there for the probe mapping. Maybe... scan the other things in the system while you are in supercruse? At this point in the time you would have spent previously doing nothing but travel, you could have gotten even more discoveries and maybe even find a reason to go check out the "uninteresting" planets that might hold something new, so making you more credits, giving something to do and maybe even finding some reason to check out other things.The funny thing is if you only look for and go to the single thing in a system is the only time there is a slowdown, as compared to the extra time for the scanning of the single thing compared to the current system. However, the moment you add in a second body you want to map, you now just greatly sped things up compared to how it is now, you can do all primary scans from the drop in point if you wanted, and you no longer have to fly there, saving you time, and then if you do want to map things, the new orrery map gives you a way to best plot a course to minimize your time spent in system so you can get from body to body with shortest distance traveled.

The things to find might not move these types of commanders into the last category, but it makes at least the tier 2 scanning much easier to do, and gives the player the time they would have spent traveling to do it.

If you are looking for cool things to look at or take pictures, the system map just showed colors, now you get a full on zoomed in view of the body without having to fly there in advance, so you are not wasting your time before you decide to go there.


4) The One-hundred per-centers.

Doing a full system is just faster, you can scan everything from the drop in point, you can chose a best plot route from the orrery map so you minimize travel time. They would have flown to each planet in the previous system, but now they still do to launch probes so efficient routing greatly speeds things up.



Most replies that I have read though that have complaints seem to be focusing on a single aspect of the new system without looking at the overall picture. Yes there might be some cases that the old system was faster, but this is in very specific senarios, what time you lost in a single star system you make up thrice or more over in the next star system. You would have to go out of your way or RNG into a very dead space of the galaxy to have it take longer then the current system to do the same thing. Overall the process is greatly sped up.
 
We also don't know if and how the new system is masking the time needed for processing the system and/or server transfers. If proper timing actually matters then it's not quite as trivial as "the code for this does already exist".

Meaningless jibber jabber.

The code to populate the current system map based on the honk exists.
The code to populate the system map with black bodies exists, at least in a previous branch.
The code to populate the FSS view with exactly positioned blue blobs exists.

Not sure what you think 'proper timing' actually means - but I don't see any timing issues at all.
It's just a case of using the information already known in a different UI - no additional transfers required.
 
Hello,

I was one of the 17 individuals that were invited to Frontiers HQ a few weeks ago and after reading this thread I think there are a couple major things that everyone seems to be omitting.

The system map shows you bodies.

How does the system map show you the voyager probes, the generation ships, the space static discharges. It wont, but you can see their waveforms.

Also,

The new Honk > Waveform checking > Scan gameplay is only out in the black where no one else has ever been before.

If a player has been to the system before you ( and have turned that data in) , your system map is already going to be populated because it is shared. Once you learn where the Earthlike waveform is at, you are going to honk, look for that area on the bar, and if there is nothing there, head to the next system.


I see explorers as falling into one of four groups.




For each of these, I only see net positives for each, yeah, there might be pluses and minuses when it comes to time spent, but overall for each level is a net time saved, which for gameplay the user can do more during their game play time and less time is wasted

Let me go into a bit more detail:



Because of the new community shared mapping, the people that never explore wont be required to do most of the stuff, they jump into a system, the system map has already been populated, they dont need to even honk anymore because it is already there. The majority of populated systems and most of the systems between those in the bubble are going to already be mapped out for these players. Even if they do decided to go somewhere, they will have the major straight lines between the Bubble, Colonia and Sag A* already mapped for them. and then they move into category 2.



These players will still be receiving the same credits that they do in the current system, the honk still gets the commander the same amount of credits as the current system. If they decide to take a look around they move into category 3



Here is the only time there is a negative ( in a single type of scenario, read to end, the end net is positive. )

If you jump into the system and honk, and glance at the wave form, once you understand that a waveform in a specific area is the Earth-like, that will be the one that people are looking for. Skill based gameplay, just like learning what the different bands on the SRV wave-scanner meant.

Now, the Honk, the scan of the waveforms, ident of something and finding it. At this point the commander can point at it, scan it and get all the details on it. They will leave that screen and then start flying to it to launch probes to get that mapping tier as well.

An Earth-like is still 4-6000 k out, it still takes time to fly there for the probe mapping. Maybe... scan the other things in the system while you are in supercruse? At this point in the time you would have spent previously doing nothing but travel, you could have gotten even more discoveries and maybe even find a reason to go check out the "uninteresting" planets that might hold something new, so making you more credits, giving something to do and maybe even finding some reason to check out other things.The funny thing is if you only look for and go to the single thing in a system is the only time there is a slowdown, as compared to the extra time for the scanning of the single thing compared to the current system. However, the moment you add in a second body you want to map, you now just greatly sped things up compared to how it is now, you can do all primary scans from the drop in point if you wanted, and you no longer have to fly there, saving you time, and then if you do want to map things, the new orrery map gives you a way to best plot a course to minimize your time spent in system so you can get from body to body with shortest distance traveled.

The things to find might not move these types of commanders into the last category, but it makes at least the tier 2 scanning much easier to do, and gives the player the time they would have spent traveling to do it.

If you are looking for cool things to look at or take pictures, the system map just showed colors, now you get a full on zoomed in view of the body without having to fly there in advance, so you are not wasting your time before you decide to go there.




Doing a full system is just faster, you can scan everything from the drop in point, you can chose a best plot route from the orrery map so you minimize travel time. They would have flown to each planet in the previous system, but now they still do to launch probes so efficient routing greatly speeds things up.



Most replies that I have read though that have complaints seem to be focusing on a single aspect of the new system without looking at the overall picture. Yes there might be some cases that the old system was faster, but this is in very specific senarios, what time you lost in a single star system you make up thrice or more over in the next star system. You would have to go out of your way or RNG into a very dead space of the galaxy to have it take longer then the current system to do the same thing. Overall the process is greatly sped up.

I used to fall into categories 2, 3 and 4 - in the course of a single exploration trip. The upcoming changes look likely to move me into category 1.

I don't want to play a minigame every time I arrive in a system to decide what I'm going to do there.

I don't want to 'explore' a system by parking at the drop-in star.

I certainly don't want to have the whole thing rendered even more meaningless than usual when someone else has already scanned the system.
 
What kind of information do you expect from these black bodies what the new system can't offer? Number of bodies perhaps? That's on the front right of the new exploration UI. So if it can't be that, what is it?

As a slightly related question: I don't know at which point the orrery will be visible. If it just comes when the system is 100% resolved then it's useless in this regard. But if sooner (and depending on how soon), it probably could act as a replacement for a quick look at orbital situations, if that's your main concern.

For me, as mentioned in the suggestion, targeting (even if just visually by aiming in the "real" system view out of the canopy) and the ability to fly out to them to optionally discover them that way instead of being sat down parked in front of a star. Also, the body count notification we currently get would be nice.

Some of the other things were mentioned by others here already.

...

So anyway, once a planet, moon, or asteroid belt is resolved have it resolved on all map variants, and if the parent body is unresolved, have it unresolved on all map variants as well after the honk, and still have the system body count notification, at least for the parent bodies, since I wouldn't want to inadvertently step on the toes of the new gameplay options.

...

To help visually clarify the sort of things I'm trying to get across here, jumping into a system and seeing this, only to have to muck around on a map UI after the honk to discover it, where it is, and what it is instead of just saying "hello world" seems more than a little redundant and awkward.

Qfc81AS.jpg
 
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Hello,

I was one of the 17 individuals that were invited to Frontiers HQ a few weeks ago and after reading this thread I think there are a couple major things that everyone seems to be omitting.

The system map shows you bodies.

How does the system map show you the voyager probes, the generation ships, the space static discharges. It wont, but you can see their waveforms.

Also,

The new Honk > Waveform checking > Scan gameplay is only out in the black where no one else has ever been before.

If a player has been to the system before you ( and have turned that data in) , your system map is already going to be populated because it is shared. Once you learn where the Earthlike waveform is at, you are going to honk, look for that area on the bar, and if there is nothing there, head to the next system.


I see explorers as falling into one of four groups.




For each of these, I only see net positives for each, yeah, there might be pluses and minuses when it comes to time spent, but overall for each level is a net time saved, which for gameplay the user can do more during their game play time and less time is wasted

Let me go into a bit more detail:



Because of the new community shared mapping, the people that never explore wont be required to do most of the stuff, they jump into a system, the system map has already been populated, they dont need to even honk anymore because it is already there. The majority of populated systems and most of the systems between those in the bubble are going to already be mapped out for these players. Even if they do decided to go somewhere, they will have the major straight lines between the Bubble, Colonia and Sag A* already mapped for them. and then they move into category 2.



These players will still be receiving the same credits that they do in the current system, the honk still gets the commander the same amount of credits as the current system. If they decide to take a look around they move into category 3



Here is the only time there is a negative ( in a single type of scenario, read to end, the end net is positive. )

If you jump into the system and honk, and glance at the wave form, once you understand that a waveform in a specific area is the Earth-like, that will be the one that people are looking for. Skill based gameplay, just like learning what the different bands on the SRV wave-scanner meant.

Now, the Honk, the scan of the waveforms, ident of something and finding it. At this point the commander can point at it, scan it and get all the details on it. They will leave that screen and then start flying to it to launch probes to get that mapping tier as well.

An Earth-like is still 4-6000 k out, it still takes time to fly there for the probe mapping. Maybe... scan the other things in the system while you are in supercruse? At this point in the time you would have spent previously doing nothing but travel, you could have gotten even more discoveries and maybe even find a reason to go check out the "uninteresting" planets that might hold something new, so making you more credits, giving something to do and maybe even finding some reason to check out other things.The funny thing is if you only look for and go to the single thing in a system is the only time there is a slowdown, as compared to the extra time for the scanning of the single thing compared to the current system. However, the moment you add in a second body you want to map, you now just greatly sped things up compared to how it is now, you can do all primary scans from the drop in point if you wanted, and you no longer have to fly there, saving you time, and then if you do want to map things, the new orrery map gives you a way to best plot a course to minimize your time spent in system so you can get from body to body with shortest distance traveled.

The things to find might not move these types of commanders into the last category, but it makes at least the tier 2 scanning much easier to do, and gives the player the time they would have spent traveling to do it.

If you are looking for cool things to look at or take pictures, the system map just showed colors, now you get a full on zoomed in view of the body without having to fly there in advance, so you are not wasting your time before you decide to go there.




Doing a full system is just faster, you can scan everything from the drop in point, you can chose a best plot route from the orrery map so you minimize travel time. They would have flown to each planet in the previous system, but now they still do to launch probes so efficient routing greatly speeds things up.



Most replies that I have read though that have complaints seem to be focusing on a single aspect of the new system without looking at the overall picture. Yes there might be some cases that the old system was faster, but this is in very specific senarios, what time you lost in a single star system you make up thrice or more over in the next star system. You would have to go out of your way or RNG into a very dead space of the galaxy to have it take longer then the current system to do the same thing. Overall the process is greatly sped up.

There is a rather major flaw in what you wrote. I'm a Type 2 within your categories, and go looking for 'interesting stuff' whether it be canyon runs usually on small moons orbiting gas giants, or just spectacular things to see, and lots more besides.

You won't be able to play Radio Planet Game and supercruise to an ELW at the same time. Why? Because Will Flanagan just informed us yesterday that when in Radio Planet Game mode, your ship is throttled to zero.

Hiding the system map behind Radio Planet Game is going to be a bigger deal than folks realise - and I cannot wait till the beta hits, because that's when the majority of the playerbase who don't frequent these forums or Reddit get their mitts on the new mechanics, including Radio Planet Game, and I'm pretty sure after the umpteenth bloody time one hits a new star system, Radio Planet Game is going to become more egregious than the current system, for many.
 
There are a fair few long-time explorers vocally expressing their disappointment of the planned removal of the Advanced Discovery Scanner's blanket instascan, thereby removing their ability to immediately determine whether a system held any personally-interesting formations/sights. Currently they would use this to either further investigate and explore closer, or skip on to the next star system.

After arrival in a new star system, what many of those explorers seek is quick high-level information on the planetary bodies:
  • The number and layout of planetary bodies
  • Distances between them
  • Their types, i.e. rare (ELW, WW, HMC) or common (ice, rocky)
  • Whether ringed or not

Back during Beta 2.2 this was introduced to mostly negative feedback:



I propose this is re-introduced, with the system map populated with a full-layout of black, hollow circles, following a honk of the revamped Discovery Scanner. As this was a feature previously introduced for Beta 2.2, I guess it can be re-introduced without requiring much in the way of development resources (compared to a new feature).

As the Discovery Scanner can pinpoint the location of frequency signals, it is feasible to assume it can determine how many separate signals, their layout, distances between them, and whether they're are ringed or not. And then generate a "low fidelity", visual representation of the detected frequencies.

Further information could be provided in the system map's sidebar, displaying the approximate breakdown of the system's planetary bodies.

Here is my very bad mspaint draft based on the above image:



The percentages of the Estimated Breakdown would be very loosely based on the pre-determined data in the Stellar Forge. The goal being to hint that an interesting, high-value world will exist there. If the makeup of a pre-determined system is 3 ELWs among a total of 8 bodies (including main star), then the Earth-Likes percentage range would be relatively high, e.g. 10-40% (indicating between 1 and 3 ELWs exist in the system).

Selecting an unscanned world (black, hollow circle) on the system map will give only four pieces of information:
  • Ringed or not
  • Distance to parent star
  • Distance to parent/partner world where appropriate (a moon, or member of binary system)
  • Approximated size and/or mass
As worlds are scanned using the planned new mechanics, each respective object in the system map will be resolved, and their details becoming accessible in the system map's sidebar. The estimated breakdown could change too (this feature could be implemented at a later date) as worlds are scanned and identified.

One possible future extension of the above mechanics could be for CMDRs who choose not to equip a Discovery Scanner at all: the system map could gradually populate with black, hollow circles, as the CMDR's ship comes within visual range of the respective planetary bodies.

Another future addition could be the highlighting on the system map the area of the habitable zone for each star, once it has been respectively scanned of course. This could further assist explorers in "scientifically" determining whether a star system could support life (via an Earth Like world for example).

Did you raise this issue while you were there during "The Visit" and what kind of response did you receive?
 
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