FD utter failure: engineering brought to an excess

[Guest 161958]

Watching a video of gankers killing explorers in one, two volleys of cannons. I like pvp, but this is not pvp, this is a click once to win mechanic.

Thinking how beautiful and fun this game is and how hard developers failed in balancing attack and defense.

I want everyone to play in open, but engineering (nice addition) was brought to an excess.

I would gladly fight back, but then I am shut off from all the exploring and other cool things this update brought because I do not have time to explore 30 or less ly per jump and I cannot bring all the stuff I need.

If there was more balance between a pvp build and explorer build it would be feasible.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Watching a video of gankers killing explorers in one, two volleys of cannons. I like pvp, but this is not pvp, this is a click once to win mechanic.

Thinking how beatiful and fun this game is and how hard developers failed in balancing attack and defense.

I want everyone to play in open, but engineering (nice addition) was brought to an excess.

I would gladly fight back, but then I am shut off from all the exploring and other cool things this update brought because I do not have time to explore 30 or less ly per jump and I cannot bring all the stuff I need.

If there was more balance between a pvp build and explorer build it would be feasible.

I do not want everyone in Open, unless everyone has a minimum downstream of 400 MBs, upstream of 40 MBs and a latency of 6ms or less. Otherwise I don't want to see you rubberbanding across my screen.

And there are plenty of times I don't want anyone in Open at all, or conversely, I'd rather play in Solo, so I don't have to see any of you at all. Nothing personal, but sometimes it's nice to be all alone. Solitude is a good thing.

 

[Morbad]

I would gladly fight back, but then I am shut off from all the exploring and other cool things this update brought because I do not have time to explore 30 or less ly per jump and I cannot bring all the stuff I need.

If there was more balance between a pvp build and explorer build it would be feasible.

It's perfectly possible to build a ship now that can defend itself well enough to escape, or in the hands of a modestly more competent pilot, prevail, that can make jumps of well over 40ly.

If you had a ship that did more than 30ly per jump before Engineering it would have lasted just about as long vs. a determined ganker as a flimsy loadout would now.

Effective damage, even accounting for lower dropoff and superior distributors, has barely doubled...defences have increased far more dramatically.

I do not want everyone in Open, unless everyone has a minimum downstream of 400 MBs, upstream of 40 MBs and a latency of 6ms or less. Otherwise I don't want to see you rubberbanding across my screen.

The game needs maybe 40-50KiB/s per client, peak. There is also fairly extreme latency compensation and unless the instance host is having CPU issues, rubberbanding is virtually non-existent.

The game has it's fair share of networking issues, but most of them have nothing to do with peer bandwidth or even latency, and would not be fixed even if all peers were connected via LAN. Outside of the admittedly problematic side effects of latency and latency compensation (ghost rams and other issues with pseudosynchronicity), it's perfectly possible to be in a ten to twenty person instance where the average peer ping is ~500ms and not notice any issues.

 

[Guest 161958]

It's perfectly possible to build a ship now that can defend itself well enough to escape, or in the hands of a modestly more competent pilot, prevail, that can make jumps of well over 40ly.

If you had a ship that did more than 30ly per jump before Engineering it would have lasted just about as long vs. a determined ganker as a flimsy loadout would now.

Effective damage, even accounting for lower dropoff and superior distributors, has barely doubled...defences have increased far more dramatically.

Yes it is possible, I am not debating that. I meant feasible for me to enjoy it and have fun personally.
I was criticizing the fact that it is possible to destroy a ship with so few volleys. It is a sign of not so very well made balancing.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I want everyone to play in open, but engineering (nice addition) was brought to an excess.

I would gladly fight back, but then I am shut off from all the exploring and other cool things this update brought because I do not have time to explore 30 or less ly per jump and I cannot bring all the stuff I need.

If there was more balance between a pvp build and explorer build it would be feasible.

The vast majority of explorers have G5 long range mass manager, and most also have a bunch of lightweight (very unwisely so) .

They have chosen to take their own engineering to an extreme, rather than balance. In order for there to be balance, well... one has to actually balance.

You are saying you do not have time to explore at < 30ly per jump, do you have any idea the amount of time that goes into a PvP build? If the gankers can make the extra jumps so can you. If you don't want to invest in defense, the solo button is there. There already is a possible balance, it's throw away the jump boosters and lightweight, and have decent enough shield and hull to live long enough to high wake (or even just low wake, with the stupid MLF bug).

I happen to agree that engineering is poorly balanced, but let's not pretend for a second that's why these pilots are dying in such high numbers. They lack the knowledge/desire to outfit their ships for open (or press solo) and the piloting skills to escape if they had a viable build. Or they want to both play in open, but not spend the extra half hour each week making the jumps in a non paper airplane ship would take.

I was criticizing the fact that it is possible to destroy a ship with so few volleys. It is a sign of not so very well made balancing.

It is a sign they have completely ignored a balanced build, and fit it out to instead maximize jump range and toys, at the expense of durability. The complete opposite of balance.

FYI some of the murderer ships out there are actually "balanced". Most have made some concessions to jump better, the sort that would get them killed in dedicated PvP rather than seal clubbing. They are more "balanced" than the explorers.

I just don't understand why someone would play in open if they didn't want to deal with this.

 

[Morbad]

It is a sign of not so very well made balancing.

Perhaps, but TTK hasn't fallen, even in most highly asymmetric encounters.

Any effort at all spent on making a ship survivable post-Engineering (even if we are talking about defenses light enough to barely affect jump range) will mean you take more time to shoot down than you would have pre-Engineering, because Engineering augmented defenses more than weapons

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

Watching a video of gankers killing explorers in one, two volleys of cannons. I like pvp, but this is not pvp, this is a click once to win mechanic.

Thinking how beatiful and fun this game is and how hard developers failed in balancing attack and defense.

I want everyone to play in open, but engineering (nice addition) was brought to an excess.

I would gladly fight back, but then I am shut off from all the exploring and other cool things this update brought because I do not have time to explore 30 or less ly per jump and I cannot bring all the stuff I need.

If there was more balance between a pvp build and explorer build it would be feasible.

Question how is it imbalanced? A ship built for Exploration in the universe is light for optimal jump range so its inherently weaker then a ship Built for Combat....Sure engineering made weapons so much better and stronger some...almost to good...but you can kill a dedicated exploration ship by ramming or even using stock weapons. I mean sure it was quite the show.. but really now...Its not imbalanced in this games mechanics. I mean I Have a DBX with 200mj Shields 2500 hull with a 43ly JR and I pvp in it.. It does fine. However if i wanted max jump range I would have to be flying a Cardboard box with a FSD in it and tbh thats not a good idea...the balance of the game is in the builds and how you build the ships. Don't fly a cardboard box around other CMDRS...I watched a anaconda....a bloody anaconda explode from booping the ground a bit to hard........REALLY.....my Conda can ram the planet and I might lose some MJ's

How do you think it should be balanced? Not trying to be rude. I really would like to hear how you would try it..you never know it might work!

 

[Guest 161958]

The vast majority of explorers have G5 long range mass manager, and most (unwisely) a crapton of lightweight. They have chosen to take their own engineering to an extreme, rather than balance.

You are saying you do not have time to explore at < 30ly per jump, do you have any idea the amount of time that goes into a PvP build? If the gankers can make the extra jumps so can you. If you don't want to invest in defense, the solo button is there. There already is a possible balance, it's throw away the jump boosters and lightweight, and have decent enough shield and hull to live long enough to high wake (or even just low wake, with the stupid MLF bug).

I happen to agree that engineering is horribly imbalanced, but let's not pretend for a second that's why these pilots are dying in such high numbers. They lack the knowledge/desire to outfit their ships for open (or press solo) and the piloting skills to escape if they had a viable build. Or they want to both play in open, but not spend the extra half hour each week making the jumps in a non paper airplane ship would take.



It is a sign they have completely ignored a balanced build, and fit it out to instead maximize jump range and toys, at the expense of durability.

I just don't understand why someone would play in open if they didn't want to deal with this.

I agree with what you say, my point is that even someone who takes its engineering to an extreme to tip the balance away from combat, does not deserve to be killed in one click.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I agree with what you say, my point is that even someone who takes its engineering to an extreme to tip the balance away from combat, does not deserve to be killed in one click.

Deserves has nothing to do with it.

You are effectively saying you want someone to be able to have an extremely unbalanced build, and then via magic they are buffed to also have the benefits of a balanced build.

Well I'd like my Challenger to have 40ly jump myself, but I can't have that so I deal with the game as it exists.

 

[Guest 161958]

Question how is it imbalanced? A ship built for Exploration in the universe is light for optimal jump range so its inherently weaker then a ship Built for Combat....Sure engineering made weapons so much better and stronger some...almost to good...but you can kill a dedicated exploration ship by ramming or even using stock weapons. I mean sure it was quite the show.. but really now...Its not imbalanced in this games mechanics. I mean I Have a DBX with 200mj Shields 2500 hull with a 43ly JR and I pvp in it.. It does fine. However if i wanted max jump range I would have to be flying a Cardboard box with a FSD in it and tbh thats not a good idea...the balance of the game is in the builds and how you build the ships. Don't fly a cardboard box around other CMDRS...I watched a anaconda....a bloody anaconda explode from booping the ground a bit to hard........REALLY.....my Conda can ram the planet and I might lose some MJ's

How do you think it should be balanced? Not trying to be rude. I really would like to hear how you would try it..you never know it might work!

I would like to avoid seeing videos of one ship destroying another in one or two clicks, whatever the ship build is.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I would like to avoid seeing videos of one ship destroying another in one or two clicks, whatever the ship build is.

Don't watch the videos.

 

[Guest 161958]

Don't watch the videos.

ok ferios, I wanted to have a discussion but if you want to impose your opinion this way, then I see no point.

Thank you anyway for your take on it.

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

I would like to avoid seeing videos of one ship destroying another in one or two clicks, whatever the ship build is.

Okay Fair enough...you could idk. Not watch them? Or do you have a idea on how to fix it? I always wondered why we could not have a ultra light Shield that could be uber strong for a short amount of time but it drained your system quickly and used a ton of power when it was activated. Kinda like a SCB but alot longer and its built into the generator also its light for exploration use. It would have to take a long time to recharge tho. Longer then prismatic.

EDIT: Also High RAW MJ but no resistance giving it a "OH SNAP GOING TO HIT GROUND" button

 

[Guest 161958]

Okay Fair enough...you could idk. Not watch them? Or do you have a idea on how to fix it? I always wondered why we could not have a ultra light Shield that could be uber strong for a short amount of time but it drained your system quickly and used a ton of power when it was activated. Kinda like a SCB but alot longer and its built into the generator also its light for exploration use. It would have to take a long time to recharge tho. Longer then prismatic.

EDIT: Also High RAW MJ but no resistance giving it a "OH SNAP GOING TO HIT GROUND" button

Same reply as Ferios. I happened to stumble on the video, I normally just play.

The point is not me watching or not the videos, the point is that they are proof that ingame you can kill with one click = not balanced.

 

[GJ51]

I agree with what you say, my point is that even someone who takes its engineering to an extreme to tip the balance away from combat, does not deserve to be killed in one click.

And they wouldn't be, as long as they avoided any easily known "kill box" - like a published waypoint of a congregation of easy-kill targets.

Your best weapon should be your brain

 

[Guest 161958]

And they wouldn't be, as long as they avoided any easily known "kill box" - like a published waypoint of a congregation of easy-kill targets.

Your best weapon should be your brain

So your suggestion is to not participate to the expedition.

Look, I would be grateful if you did not sway from the OP. It is about one click kills which are symptoms of unbalance, not about git gud.

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

Same reply as Ferios. I happened to stumble on the video, I normally just play.

The point is not me watching or not the videos, the point is that they are proof that ingame you can kill with one click = not balanced.

-.- THE BALANCE IS THE BUILD OF THE SHIP!

DO NOT FLY A CARDBOARD BOX! Build your ship to handle the dangerous nature of the galaxy.

If you build a ship for strictly jump range you are flying a cardboard box

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/ae989s/distant_worlds_2_outfitting_advice/

Read this Post from Ryan_m17 From SDC. He has examples of how to build a great exploration ship that is survivable in these situations.

SO NO I don't think in this instance it is unbalanced....

And to be fair...NO i did not like seeing the Ganking at DW2 either... I could not even finish the video because I was just disappointed..

Good luck mate o7

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Yeah, it's weird how ships meticulously engineered to be good at exploring would be rubbish at fighting, isn't it?

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

ok ferios, I wanted to have a discussion but if you want to impose your opinion this way, then I see no point.

Thank you anyway for your take on it.

That was not an opinion. It was a suggestion that would effectively address the exact desire you stated, to not see the ships blow up.

If you meant something else, just say what you mean.

I addressed every single point about engineering you made. You ignored everything I said, and continued to say the same thing, in different ways.

Do you have a point, other than you'd like for ships built with absolutely no serious prioritization or thought given to survival to be able to survive?

Because that is what a one shot death is. A ship built with no idea what it might encounter in open, encountering open.

 

[Guest 161958]

-.- THE BALANCE IS THE BUILD OF THE SHIP!

DO NOT FLY A CARDBOARD BOX! Build your ship to handle the dangerous nature of the galaxy.

If you build a ship for strictly jump range you are flying a cardboard box

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/ae989s/distant_worlds_2_outfitting_advice/

Read this Post from Ryan_m17 From SDC. He has examples of how to build a great exploration ship that is survivable in these situations.

SO NO I don't think in this instance it is unbalanced....

And to be fair...NO i did not like seeing the Ganking at DW2 either... I could not even finish the video because I was just disappointed..

Good luck mate o7

yes everything true. Still the problem remains, bottom threshold of ship build balance makes it possible to destroy one with one click in my opinion.