FD utter failure: engineering brought to an excess

Certainly not impossible, but.. Is you average explorer a meta-combat-pilot like any decent PvP Ganker is ?

That is an irrelevant question, they don't need to be a meta-combat-pilot. They just need to be a good enough pilot to get away.

This takes very little practice (assuming other basics already learned via exploring). Keep hollows off your 6 in SC, submit losing interdiction for quick cooldown, pop sink, spin, boost, no straight lines, high wake to system already picked out before hand, dont run into white dots.

Learning that probably takes less time than the first set of jumps for the 5000ly waypoint.

Most of them have googled the hell out of "how do I shave 4 tons off my build for 0.04 more ly on my jump" so really should know better.

I do feel bad for those pilots who just go off in game information though. It does pretty much zippo to help with real world open play, if anything it makes it worse (cobra 3 has fastest boost! etc).
 
Before engineering these ship classes were much closer in combat potential. A general purpose ship (a explorer wouldnt though!) would be able to significantly damage a combat ship before exploding, and if flown well, might even win. But nowadays with all the hull and shield reinforcements avaiable to combat ships, chances are the general purpose wont even drop the shields.

Its a shame if you ask me. But oh well.



I really dont think thats what he means but anyways... https://s.orbis.zone/1yto
This is the strongest i can make a DBX before id need to drop exploring related modules. Its a small ship, no room for hull reinforcements, both shield and hull fall a bit short of whats neccessary.

Now this is fairly strong compared to quite a few explorers (it lost 10ly range but having still 60+ range id consider it acceptable still) but it doesnt meet the gankproof treshold discussed earlier.


And that ship is much better off than it would be in a total non-engineers environment.
Not to mention 60 ly was very rare until pretty recently.
That was maxxed out Anaconda range until the engineers revamp.
It was impossible even earlier.
 
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Deleted member 115407

D
You will be taking at least one shot because you need to get close to hug and force your opponent into wider turning arcs to buy you time. If you cant eat that one hit (hull and shield combined) at least, you've already lost the moment you get interdicted is what im saying.

If you read some latter posts, this will mean you need about 3000 effective hp at least to make a getaway (to allow some hits while making manuevers and while you align to hi-wake). 500mj shield just wont cut it unless you pack some extra hull reinforcements, as Ashen said you'd do well having 1000mj shield (w good ressistances) and 500 hull as base stats, but thats a feat impossible for smaller ships (DBX being a popular one in DW2) without compromising their exploring.

Can you build me a vanilla explorer DBX that can stand up to a vanilla FdL better than an engineered DBX can to an engineered FdL?

Conda, asp, phantom all more popular than DBX per the "35 odd" thread a few days ago. Conda and phantom in particular are straightforward to survive in.

Let's just get something straight right now. I started this ganking expedition in a DBX. Most of my kills in Pallaeni were in a DBX, and while I was there I was engaged multiple times (by PvPers). The only two times I died in that thing were the two times that I wanted die (by sticking around to fight things that were bigger than me).

I flew that little fatherless child out to Omega on day one and got in on the handful of first kills out there. Then flew it back to the bubble to get something with more DPS and less jump range. That means I did 10,000 Ly in that thing in a couple of days... no wait... 12,500 Ly, because at one point I had to fly back from detention.

You can survive and explore in a DBX.
 
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Looks like a solid explorer build .... good ship choice and a load out that’s solid ..... And still if someone engineers to beat it ... they will .... it’s life ....

Maybe the problem is that there is no good friend / foe mechanism .... eg u could allow players to mark ships know safe / known other / dangerous etc and all new contacts would be unknown ..... this would at least allow players to know what and who are around them and make decisions before people get 2 close
 
Let's not kid ourselves. DBS was 0.2% per the "35 odd" thread which tallied ship types for DW2.

I'd guess most explorers are not vanilla, they have G5 LR MM FSD and many also have Guardian FSD and lightweighting. Vanilla casuals simple won't put in the number of jumps needed. And if they're truly "vanilla" they can't even participate in any surface exploring.

If anything engr makes DW2 much more viable by cutting the number of jumps approximately in half (or more).

I dont have data about that. I dont think you have neither.

I guess you could be surprised how many people can just afford one hour of gametime a day or less, yet are able to be part of the community.

You just mixed up everything, FSD engineering is not about viability. I'm sure you can spot the nuance between a non engineered FSD leading to more jumps in an exploration event, and a non engineered shield and boosters leading to a rebuy screen.

Also, vanilla Elite is actually an harder game, you should rethink your definition of casual.
 
Well this has been an interesting read. So it appears that to play in Open it is recommended that all players should build for worst case scenarios, i.e. have some defensive mechanisms in either decent shields or high speed to survive and if you don't follow these recommendations that everything is the players fault. Okay, fair enough, me personally would never fly a ship without shield nor weapons nor decent speed. Oh wait I tell a lie (how bad of me) my current build for my Krait miner doesn't have weapons. My choice as well I want to MINE so I take the risk - and yes when I am flying back to the station with my 136T of Void Opals or LTDs I will readily admit I switch to PG. By the way that isn't being a coward, that is just being smart :D

Now comes the bit I know will upset some here. In my humble opinion one of the reasons why this thread is so divided is that some don't like being told they must conform their playing styles to fit with what is in effect a minority. The tone of some of the posts are basically: "Yes you can fly in my open but if you want to survive you need to change the layout of your ship, if you don't then it is your fault if I blow you up - you have been warned." Maybe people don't like being told that, that they have to play by someone else's rules.

The only group who don't seem to suffer these demands on their builds are the PvP boys and girls. They can build the most ridiculous ships going yet because they are fit for purpose, they are fine. But how would they react if they were continuously told that to fly in open they must have at least 16T of cargo space and a minimum jump range of 40ly. No other requirements, but you can imagine the responses. Why they ask are they being forced to do build a ship that isn't to their specific needs, they don't need cargo, they don't need that jump range. But then it is explained to them that yes they do, because there could be a chance that they will need that jump range or cargo capacity, no matter how small that chance is, it is still a chance and if they don't want to conform then they can go an play in their own PG where jump range and cargo capacity isn't an issue. I think everyone can imagine what the reaction would be ;)

And if anyone thinks the scenario will never happen, just read any of the multitudes of threads complaining about the ship transfer mechanism, there will always be someone demanding instant transfer because his PvP ship has a single digit jump range and physically can't do anything until his uber ship arrives.

There are problems on both sides of this fence. Some will insist on flying a ship be to their own unique requirements then complain if it proves to be insufficient to other aspects of the game. For example building an exploration ship solely based on extreme jump range, then complaining that yes, they did get blown up and it just wasn't fair. On the other side we have those saying that you must build your ship to be able to resist them as it is their god given and constitutional right to destroy any ship they want, and if you get blown up it is all your fault.

There is no solution to this unfortunately, except play in a mode that suits you best, they one you feel is best suited to your requirements. That may not always be Open although I think most would prefer to play in that mode, they are smart enough to realise it just isn't worth the angst. Think of it like a school yard. There is that great jungle gym, heaps of fun but that is where all the bullies and tough kids hang out. You know that for a while you will have fun there but eventually one of those kids will push you off the gym or demand your lunch money. Then there are various swing and slide sets, you know they are safe 99% of the time, but you don't get to play with all your friends because they might be in one of the other slides. Lastly, there is the big sand pit, lots playing there but they are all playing by themselves. They are certainly having a lot of fun, they are enjoying the experience, but for some it is just a little lonely there.

On topic (yay, finally some say), engineering isn't the cause of this, but it did contribute to the divide. Because players can now design and modify ships to a very narrow an specific role, the gap of doing any activity outside of that role becomes wider. Want to build the perfect exploration ship based on your criteria of maximum jump range, fine but be prepared to be killed by anyone who wants to. Want to build the most tankiest, highest DPS ship going, go for it, but don't complain about jump range or ship transfers. As I said above, this won't go away, in fact it will only get worse and the only outcome I can see is more people leaving Open if they actually want to do something other than prepare for PvP.
 
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What this guys said + it’s the Wild West out there.... fly and build as u desire and live .... good, the bad and the ugly
 
Well this has been an interesting read. So it appears that to play in Open it is recommended that all players should build for worst case scenarios, i.e. have some defensive mechanisms in either decent shields or high speed to survive and if you don't follow these recommendations that everything is the players fault. Okay, fair enough, me personally would never fly a ship without shield nor weapons nor decent speed. Oh wait I tell a lie (how bad of me) my current build for my Krait miner doesn't have weapons. My choice as well I want to MINE so I take the risk - and yes when I am flying back to the station with my 136T of Void Opals or LTDs I will readily admit I switch to PG. By the way that isn't being a coward, that is just being smart :D

Now comes the bit I know will upset some here. In my humble opinion one of the reasons why this thread is so divided is that some don't like being told they must conform their playing styles to fit with what is in effect a minority. The tone of some of the posts are basically: "Yes you can fly in my open but if you want to survive you need to change the layout of your ship, if you don't then it is your fault if I blow you up - you have been warned." Maybe people don't like being told that, that they have to play by someone else's rules.

The only group who don't seem to suffer these demands on their builds are the PvP boys and girls. They can build the most ridiculous ships going yet because they are fit for purpose, they are fine. But how would they react if they were continuously told that to fly in open they must have at least 16T of cargo space and a minimum jump range of 40ly. No other requirements, but you can imagine the responses. Why they ask are they being forced to do build a ship that isn't to their specific needs, they don't need cargo, they don't need that jump range. But then it is explained to them that yes they do, because there could be a chance that they will need that jump range or cargo capacity, no matter how small that chance is, it is still a chance and if they don't want to conform then they can go an play in their own PG where jump range and cargo capacity isn't an issue. I think everyone can imagine what the reaction would be ;)

And if anyone thinks the scenario will never happen, just read any of the multitudes of threads complaining about the ship transfer mechanism, there will always be someone demanding instant transfer because his PvP ship has a single digit jump range and physically can't do anything until his uber ship arrives.

There are problems on both sides of this fence. Some will insist on flying a ship be to their own unique requirements then complain if it proves to be insufficient to other aspects of the game. For example building an exploration ship solely based on extreme jump range, then complaining that yes, they did get blown up and it just wasn't fair. On the other side we have those saying that you must build your ship to be able to resist them as it is their god given and constitutional right to destroy any ship they want, and if you get blown up it is all your fault.

There is no solution to this unfortunately, except play in a mode that suits you best, they one you feel is best suited to your requirements. That may not always be Open although I think most would prefer to play in that mode, they are smart enough to realise it just isn't worth the angst. Think of it like a school yard. There is that great jungle gym, heaps of fun but that is where all the bullies and tough kids hang out. You know that for a while you will have fun there but eventually one of those kids will push you off the gym or demand your lunch money. Then there are various swing and slide sets, you know they are safe 99% of the time, but you don't get to play with all your friends because they might be in one of the other slides. Lastly, there is the big sand pit, lots playing there but they are all playing by themselves. They are certainly having a lot of fun, they are enjoying the experience, but for some it is just a little lonely there.

On topic (yay, finally some say), engineering isn't the cause of this, but it did contribute to the divide. Because players can now design and modify ships to a very narrow an specific role, the gap of doing any activity outside of that role becomes wider. Want to build the perfect exploration ship based on your criteria of maximum jump range, fine but be prepared to be killed by anyone who wants to. Want to build the most tankiest, highest DPS ship going, go for it, but don't complain about jump range or ship transfers. As I said above, this won't go away, in fact it will only get worse and the only outcome I can see is more people leaving Open if they actually want to do something other than prepare for PvP.


You are stating things as fact which are not true.
Ships are way more versatile than even a year ago.
The gap is effectively narrower.
 
You are stating things as fact which are not true.
Ships are way more versatile than even a year ago.
The gap is effectively narrower.

So how do you explain the massacre that prompted this thread? If the gap is so narrow how did all those ship get blown up so easily? Sure they are probably more multi-role ships around the bubble, but are you stating as a fact that no one is building role specific ships now?
 
So how do you explain the massacre that prompted this thread? If the gap is so narrow how did all those ship get blown up so easily? Sure they are probably more multi-role ships around the bubble, but are you stating as a fact that no one is building role specific ships now?



It's objectively true massacre or not.
I am stating that the benefits of engineering make it easier to survive now than even a year ago, much less with stock ships.

And it also takes longer to unlock the respective engineers and do the mods for a combat ship than an explorer.
If they started the same day, the explorer could be modded and out in the black before the PKer had their dirty drives done.
 
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