The Quest To Find Raxxla
- Thread starter Macros Black
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I had to drop to horizons which got me back in but i swiftly rose to 180 heat before jumping away.... i survived lolLMAOOOOOOOO.
I can imagine the rage.
Hi Allen, nice to hear from you!
I have many questions about ED, and expect I share them with most of the people in this thread. But I’m not interested in getting new clues to Raxxla ( wouldn't turn any down though!
), rather just clarifying some of the confusion. I understand that there are NDAs in place, and a desire to maintain the mystery of the game, but would appreciate answers if you can (& if you cant then perhaps you could take up the questions with FD directly since they just don't answer our questions on these matters).I think the first major question I have is about The Dark Wheel.
David Braben said in a video “ED has a story that "embraces all the players"
(m.youtube.com/watch?v=gDh9G1gDgMU) that “things can happen to you at certain stages through the game, you’ll get invited to join things, if you get invited to join a secret organisation that’s a thing that can happen to lots of players, if you don’t get that invitation you’ll think to yourself why? I did kill that policeman the other day maybe I need to get my reputation higher”.
The Codex entry on TDW also implies that TDW is an organisation that players can join. We have therefore assumed that TDW is the secret organisation he was referring to, but after 7 years we have not heard of anyone being invited to join. So my main question is this- “is TDW in-game an organisation we can really join?” If the answer is yes then the consequent question would be “is the membership invitation regularly tested and proved working ok as we’ve had no invites!”
The second question I have is about the journey to Raxxla. Michael Brookes implied several times there is an in-game storyline that relates to this
(DJTruthsayer [TIQ] Michael Brookes Lore interview 14May2016
player.twitch.tv/?volume=0.8&video=v66487974&time=1h40m30s;
“Legacy was billed in the Kickstarter campaign as a sequel to The Dark Wheel, however, I was expecting more of a direct follow up ...There was a throwaway reference to Raxxla near the beginning the story but...
MB “It was more of a spiritual successor than a direct sequel. We did look at a story involving Raxxla, but felt that was a story that should be played out in game rather than as a novel.”” forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/elite-legacy.50320/page-15#post-2566545)
However we have been searching for a long time and seem to have made no progress in finding/starting this storyline. We thought the old E/F missions (e.g. Obfuscated on the Outer Rim”) from TDW faction at Jameson Memorial were the second step along this storyline (the first being to attain Elite rank to get the SD permit), but they disappeared circa 2016 and FD have recently confirmed to Cmdr Rochester that they were deleted from the game. Can you confirm there is indeed such a storyline and that it is also regularly tested to ensure it is working correctly?
In your PhD thesis you presented some of the ED lore bible. One of the points was about the Mars Artefact. You wrote “In 2280, the first non-human relic was found in space. The object, no bigger than a child’s hand was collected by an orbital probe around Europa and quickly brought back to Earth. No information has ever been circulated as to the properties of this item or its origin.” However this was changed in-game, Tourist Beacon 0175 says “In 2280, the first non-human relic was found in space. The object was found buried on Mars; it was no bigger than a child's hand and is still surrounded in secrecy, even in 3300. No information has ever been circulated as to the properties of this item or its origin, other than it is non-human”. Can you explain why this lore was changed?
Being found in orbit at Europa seemed to be a hint that Raxxla might possibly be a tribute to 2001 Space Odyssey, so I understand there might have been IPR grounds behind this change, or perhaps because it was too strong a hint to the location of Raxxla (though some of us have spent a long time in Sol trying to find something that doesn’t seem to be there!) but the result seemed to be a strong hint that a historical alien presence at Mars was relevant. Was it actually a tribute to Total Recall’s huge underground alien machine that terraformed Mars when triggered (by a human hand)?
Can you say why is Ceres missing from the game? What happened to it?
Finally, and being very cheeky, I recently posted a discussion list of my current hypotheses. I’d welcome any feedback you can give on any of those points!
(https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-9616047)
Hi Allen, nice to hear from you!
I have many questions about ED, and expect I share them with most of the people in this thread. But I’m not interested in getting new clues to Raxxla ( wouldn't turn any down though!
I can try. I do believe, which I've said a few times, there is a Wizard of Oz element to these things - "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Sometimes the answers are less interesting than the journey to earn them.
So, I would expect this was a development/continuance/extrapolation of David's explanation about Elite not wanting to be a "Skywalker Saga". The ethos of Elite at the time was to be a game that allowed you to make your own story. There were one or two writers who tried to centralise their stories, trying to make their narratives essential. Frontier had already experimented with that kind of narrative when making Frontier: First Encounters. The clever use of text designed to centralise around the player (using the newspapers) was clever design and programming and you can certainly see clever work being done with the mission system, building on this. But, with Elite Dangerous being an MMO, that kind of specific 'hero' focused story design was not part of the planning and I do think David and others wanted to communicate that.
With regards to organisations, I think David was talking generally. I could be wrong, but 'join' may refer to the process of allying with specific factions in given systems - which is/was as near as you could get to 'joining'. Worth bearing in mind that the specific wording of communication texts is tailored to how well you get on with someone.
We all expected Elite: Legacy to be a direct sequel, which was why most of the other writers steered clear in their central plots and then tried to hint at things that could relate to Raxxla, the Dark Wheel, etc. These areas were pretty much off limits for a direct narrative at the time. However, replication of Holdstock's mythmaking is something many of the writers attempted. There are connections between the books, the game, the rest. It is worth looking at T James' book Out of the Darkness (which I edited) to get a snapshot of how close many of us were allowed to 'the crown jewels'
The mythos around Thargoids was very closely guarded. T. James worked up the Thargoid booklet draft. I had a bit of time to look at it and we had one or two discussions (T James, David Braben, Michael Brookes and I), where we considered the origin of Thargoids and how that related to other elements of the mythology. I was very much the fourth person in that discussion, whereas I was more involved in the other areas.Michael made several announcements whilst project lead during that period. He was incredibly overworked trying to fulfill the commitments placed on him by the Kickstarter and Frontier. He was lovely to work with. I'd say he was more Lovecraft influenced than Holdstock influenced, but there's a similarity. I would say his intention was always to include Raxxla, The Dark Wheel, and references that would provide a narrative continuance. I worked with that in mind, preserving and developing the hints given in the background from Frontier: Elite 2 and Frontier First Encounters. I don't know how far they got on game implementation of that narrative but he would always reply confidently that it was in the game.
See above. I think its worth adding that we all wanted there to be that story - everyone. Whether it happened/is happening. I don't know.
Probably because someone didn't read the old guide draft?
When developing these kind of macrotexts, you need to have a caretaker who updates things based on new things so there is continuity. The Star Wars Holocron (shared between Timothy Zahn, Michael A. Stackpole, etc) was passed to each writer, updated and moved on. The original reference is (I think) from Frontier: Elite 2. I expect Frontier didn't expect players to dig out sections of my Ph. D. They weren't particularly interested in it when I let them know I'd submitted it and qualified. I did expect a mention in the newsletter at the time, but... well... Generally, its important that whoever care takes, isn't too caught up in the journey. I've see plenty of curious folk who are fabulous 'loremasters' - in that they know the lore, memorise it, value it, and occasionally use their knowledge as status points within a fandom. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all, but it does require a different mindset to be the person who creates the answers. It requires evaluation of the effect of those answers.
You may want to consider that with regards to Raxxla. There is no greater tribute to Holdstock that the search continues. But, what happens when someone finds it? If it becomes a status point for an individual player to post on Youtube or somewhere else, that wouldn't really be a fitting tribute to his work. I'd much prefer something that offered a narrative reversal of some kind or built something clever and elusive. There are a variety of design models that could achieve this and there are a lot of clever people at Frontier who know a lot more about implementing that kind of thing than me.
The early design processes were very meticulous. I wrote speculative drafts of factional history, culture, society, etc. Others would then scribble on them. This essentially developed the role of 'concept writer', which I'm currently doing for several international projects now. It means when you don't quite know what you want someone can put something in front of you that you can work from. It turns the design process into a positive, building process rather than a negative one. I'm generally not precious about changes unless somebody really dumps on my work. That happens occasionally. I don't recall many occasions like that with Elite: Dangerous. In many areas, I expanded things that were already there. In this instance, I expect the change was to make things easier for future design.
Could have been. There are loads of small call backs and tributes in the texts. Sometimes they went a little OOT and got flagged. I hold my hand up for one or two silly ideas.
When you are working with someone else's lore, you do need to be respectful of it. I've learned a lot over the last few years about that. I don't think I've made massive missteps in my time, but I've seen others who have. Sometimes I was looking at tributes written by writers fifteen or twenty years before I was looking at them. Continuity was my goal, trying to link things. The Sohalian Plague is a good example of this. I made good use of the journals - http://www.dream-ware.co.uk/first-encounters/journals/all/Can you say why is Ceres missing from the game? What happened to it?
Finally, and being very cheeky, I recently posted a discussion list of my current hypotheses. I’d welcome any feedback you can give on any of those points!
(https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/the-quest-to-find-raxxla.168253/post-9616047)
No idea about Ceres. I've taken a read of your writing. I'll try to put together some small thoughts if I can.
Hi, i have a question too, very simple one:
At this stage of the game, is TDW locked behind an unobtainable permit? (Either Polaris or LFT 509).
Even a yes/no question is welcome, just like Jorki said to clarify the confusion and throw to a bin some hypothesis to focus on the truth.
I don't have an informed answer to this, but it is a decent assumption.
I requested a permit lock for Lave 2 owing to the Walden plot of Lave Revolution. I had hopes that Frontier would be interested in returning to the story and drawing on some ideas to create a connected story between the game and the novel, or the proposed sequel. I've still a slim hope that we may revisit this idea, but the reality of the situation is that Frontier aren't in the same situation as they were when I worked for them. The company is much bigger, much more successful and that has to affect the nature of any commercial relationship. I've had very frank discussions with Frontier staff about that over the years.
When thinking about TDW. If the plan was to develop a story having already placed some initial assets, then priorities or personnel changed, that does create an explanation that fits with much of the information stated. It is an unfortunate and disappointing explanation if true. It would be even more unfortunate if those assets were removed in an update.
I can't claim to have any insider information that answers your question as a yes or no, I'm afraid.
One of the intriguing things about the whole Raxxla thing to me is that it has been stated by some that "There are no clues" in the general game, yet here we are looking for, and in some cases following supposed in game clues/hints.
I believe that Drew Wagar asked the direct question and was told that it is "in game", and I am also to understand that someone has actually visited the system, refuelled, but did not scan it. To me that is a really frustrating event, someone came so close yet so far away. in many ways makes the job of finding it harder. As a now, very occasional player since Odyssey, I have just really started to look and to be honest, I am fumbling around in the dark (Maybe I should say in the Black), and being of a certain age (62) I am starting to wonder if I will still be around when/if it is found. I do however know that a list of the actual facts, not speculation, would be of the greatest of help, certainly to this increasingly grumpy old Commander.
I believe that Drew Wagar asked the direct question and was told that it is "in game", and I am also to understand that someone has actually visited the system, refuelled, but did not scan it. To me that is a really frustrating event, someone came so close yet so far away. in many ways makes the job of finding it harder. As a now, very occasional player since Odyssey, I have just really started to look and to be honest, I am fumbling around in the dark (Maybe I should say in the Black), and being of a certain age (62) I am starting to wonder if I will still be around when/if it is found. I do however know that a list of the actual facts, not speculation, would be of the greatest of help, certainly to this increasingly grumpy old Commander.
This is probably the best way to manage Raxxla however probably the way every single other game does it and ends up splitting the player base up making it then not so good, Thargoids become really dangerous like in the old games, take over most of humanity/are everywhere, Humanity search for the final stand to make them disappear forever however stumble on Raxxla instead.....Gateway then now gives players the option of Galaxy A: Thargoid death zone...or Galaxy B: Humanity's new frontier with being able to use the "For now Mystery locked behind the Narrative Raxxla Gate" to travel between zones, this way seems the most plausible so every player can experience the discovery while also tieing it in to the "Narrative" however will most likely also make alot of players very very angry.
I honestly think that Raxxla is locked by storyline narrative from whatever storyline they haven't started yet, this would make it technically in the game just not actually in the game hence the vague answers/no answers just like when asked would Thargoid be before they where actually added to the game, no 1 CMDR is going to find it, no CMDR may ever find it in that fact, If it is found it will of course be an epic find however personally I think it will cause more anger than discovery, As Allen has said...if that one solo CMDR finds it what then? Big cheers for him yet then the entire rest of the player base has nothing really to play towards anymore unless of course they add a story/expansion along the lines of my first mention
I honestly think that Raxxla is locked by storyline narrative from whatever storyline they haven't started yet, this would make it technically in the game just not actually in the game hence the vague answers/no answers just like when asked would Thargoid be before they where actually added to the game, no 1 CMDR is going to find it, no CMDR may ever find it in that fact, If it is found it will of course be an epic find however personally I think it will cause more anger than discovery, As Allen has said...if that one solo CMDR finds it what then? Big cheers for him yet then the entire rest of the player base has nothing really to play towards anymore unless of course they add a story/expansion along the lines of my first mention
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So Allen, how would you go about finding out what Raxxla is and where it may be found, or uncovered etc.?
Interesting question. Apologies, my answer might be someone indirect.
Over the last two decades, I've been involved in the design of games in a variety of mediums with a variable amount of success. One of the principles I have tried to utilise is one of flawed craft. That means, building exploits and errors into a game's framework. This is something I've done in live roleplay. People have a variety of play styles, some respond to the parameters of a game by trying to find the edge, the extra and the unthought of. If you build flaws into what you make, some find those flaws and believe they have outwitted the game.
Part of approaching design like that (for anything) is accepting that the people who are playing your game are quicker, more industrious and more intelligent than you. You (as the designer) have an advantage of being half a step ahead. You do everything possible to maintain that advantage.
I don't think Frontier design things that way, but if they did, the search for Raxxla would lead to somewhere in plain sight.
In terms of what I would do in searching for Raxxla? I'm not sure I would search for it. I admire the quest and the dedication of people who look. When I played Elite (not Elite Dangerous) I imagined every ship was another player, that the power grid was some sort of internet, making the game a secret MMO. I spent hours and hours and hours looking for generation ships. Playing Elite Dangerous in a Cobra Mark III when I played fulfilled my dreams. So did working on the game.
I'm very fortunate that my legacy exists in the game. A lot of the tourist beacon text points of interest from many worlds are versions taken from my draft guidebooks.
Since working on Elite Dangerous, I've written my own tribute to Raxxla and Holdstock in my SF writing.
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"I don't think Frontier design things that way, but if they did, the search for Raxxla would lead to somewhere in plain sight.Interesting question. Apologies, my answer might be someone indirect.
Over the last two decades, I've been involved in the design of games in a variety of mediums with a variable amount of success. One of the principles I have tried to utilise is one of flawed craft. That means, building exploits and errors into a game's framework. This is something I've done in live roleplay. People have a variety of play styles, some respond to the parameters of a game by trying to find the edge, the extra and the unthought of. If you build flaws into what you make, some find those flaws and believe they have outwitted the game.
Part of approaching design like that (for anything) is accepting that the people who are playing your game are quicker, more industrious and more intelligent than you. You (as the designer) have an advantage of being half a step ahead. You do everything possible to maintain that advantage.
I don't think Frontier design things that way, but if they did, the search for Raxxla would lead to somewhere in plain sight.
In terms of what I would do in searching for Raxxla? I'm not sure I would search for it. I admire the quest and the dedication of people who look. When I played Elite (not Elite Dangerous I imagined every ship was another player, that the power grid was some sort of internet, making the game a secret MMO. I spent hours and hours and hours looking for generation ships. Playing Elite Dangerous in a Cobra Mark III when I played fulfilled my dreams. So did working on the game.
I'm very fortunate that my legacy exists in the game. A lot of the tourist beacon text points of interest from many worlds are versions taken from my draft guidebooks.
Since working on Elite Dangerous, I've written my own tribute to Raxxla and Holdstock in my SF writing.
"Andromeda or the LMC the only Galaxy's you can see from every single system in the game that isnt obscured by any star or large group of stars
Speaking of which something hit me...."Obfuscated in the outer rim" references by the old Dark Wheel missions........Barnards loop is one of the only Nebula that actually disappears from view after you get a certain distance away from it.....I always thought this was a bug as Iv seen the bubble nebula and many other nebula from alot further yet Barnards being the most prominent one in the galaxy just vanishes from the skybox after if i remember correctly 2000ly+ hmmmmm bug or something else
Even try it yourself just using the galaxy map it also does it yet nebula behind can be still seen, ngc 2286 permit zone also happens to be on the outer sanguineous rim, it used to be located with NGC 2286 C 42 which still resides the original location until the whole sector was moved (possibly a forgotten system as its the only one that ends in C 42 as opposed to Sector).......funnily around the time these missions where starting to be accessed by the first Elite holders, this system was extensively searched many times since by the way by myself included
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Maybe they're Vulcanoids - but being hypothetical they're not sure if they should be in the game or not... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanoid
We need to make them feel welcome...wear pointy ears so they feel reassured, then you can creep up close and do a mind meld!
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“Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was "Oh no, not again." Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.”
No pix & video, no discovery!!
Do not feed the troll!
On a California hillside overlooking the pacific, a young artist named Jason finds an ancient relic, a mysterious amulet that contains a powerful wisdom – inspired keys to humankind’s secret heritage. Jason’s efforts to discover the meaning of the charm embroil him in an international conspiracy involving the highest levels of the corporate and financial establishment who are attempting to use secret...Queen of the Sun Book, meh it worth a read...not getting any further on here although the book was written by an E . J Michael and not the writer above lol Igor Marchenko never even wrote a book with this title or anything close for that matter just weird mech robot books
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I did however come across this in reddit regarding an entry in the codex, can anyone confirm the change/before writing?
OK, I found a strange thing in the codex today.
2) now go to that section.
It says "Unified Infotech"
When did they change it? Was it a mistake? Clue?
Is "Raxxla" a device that our Universal Cartographics company uses to somehow produce the galaxy map? That would make perfect sense for when Michael Brooks said "Its a path every pilot has to take"...its the technology behind the universal map maybe?
Edit:
Secondly: El dorado is mentioned twice. One in Raxxla post, and once in the Alliance post about Alioth. I am beginning to think there are many little pointers throughout the codex.
Edit: apparently Raxxla isn't popular on reddit... I'll save my theories for the 1000 page forum post, and the Raxxla hunting discords i guess.
OK, I found a strange thing in the codex today.
- Codex released in 2018. At this time under Corporations, there is an Entry for Universal Cartographics
2) now go to that section.
It says "Unified Infotech"
When did they change it? Was it a mistake? Clue?
Is "Raxxla" a device that our Universal Cartographics company uses to somehow produce the galaxy map? That would make perfect sense for when Michael Brooks said "Its a path every pilot has to take"...its the technology behind the universal map maybe?
Edit:
Secondly: El dorado is mentioned twice. One in Raxxla post, and once in the Alliance post about Alioth. I am beginning to think there are many little pointers throughout the codex.
Edit: apparently Raxxla isn't popular on reddit... I'll save my theories for the 1000 page forum post, and the Raxxla hunting discords i guess.