Crime Update Discussion

[Faded Glory]

What people seem to forget is that FDEV have to cater to all the customers who bought the game. Some of those customers like to be traders, like play at a moderate pace, and get annoyed when they are being killed deliberately and repeatedly by others, without any real reason. Some other customers like to play the anarchy type, they like to kill other players just for the fun of it and not get locked out of the game by doing so.

So FDEV are between a rock and a hard place. They have to find some middle ground to allow both types of gameplay but prevent one side from feeling on the short end of the stick. This is what these changes are meant to achieve - they are not designed to eliminate anarchic killing altogether (otherwise we could have just had automatic billion rebuy costs for any player kill - or simply invincible players to one another). The legacy fine mechanic is simply there to prevent repeated sociopath attacks in a certain area. This way there is some retribution for the actions of the attacker (because he has to move or pay the fine), and some relief for the victim (knowing that his attacker has to move).

I believe FDEV will achieve this objective, because I have seen both type of complains on the forum in the past days. I've seen people complain that this will kill PvP, and I've seen people complain that the penalties are not high enough. In my opinion, FDEV are on the right track.


As for the friendly fire and speed limit mechanics: just be a better pilot. I am having the impression that everyone who complains about this is not confident in his skills as a pilot. I too have accidentally shot security ships and rammed into other haulers, and you know what? It was entirely my fault. If I would have paid more attention to my windshield and to my sensors I could have prevented any of those events.

I think this is an important point. Elite and Frontier were not online games, and the developer (DB) could control a huge amount of what went on in the game. Unfortunately, nobody can account for human behavior. These 'crime' updates are to try and deal with a tiny minority of players who find exploits in the game and take advantage of them, not to win the game, it's not that kind of game, but simply to amuse themselves, and it happens at the expense of others. They can make NPC's as deadly as they like, and probably people would accept that because the NPC's aren't hiding in stations using exploits to destroy people.

I'm not convinced that what has been proposed will solve the problems, I'm pretty sure that the tiny minority will find a way around them, and in any case, as others have said, they're not actually playing the game, not trying to progress, not trying to increase reputation, probably not trying to find a system to call home. Unfortunately, those players who are investing themselves into the game, going for immersion will likely find their occasional transgression to be much more costly in terms of how it affects their gameplay.

I have posted often in FF threads, and I generally also feel that many of the FF complaints come from players thinking they are playing an arcade style shoot 'em up. Personally I believe that FF is generally avoidable, and gets easier to avoid the better I get at piloting and fighting. That said, I still get the occasional FF accident, and as you say, it's probably my fault, but I don't believe a seven day persistent bounty is warranted for that error. It was a 200 credit bounty, and the offense was not murder, or even attempted murder. So, FD will increase the threshold for FF, meaning that in order to get it right, and not be flooded with screams of outrage, they will have to make it very difficult to cross that threshold. The possibility of FF makes bounty hunting more fun, means that I have to think, and be aware of what's going on around me, and to take that away reduces the amount of skill I need to play the game, actually makes it more like an arcade game. That would be a shame.

Anyway, we'll have to wait and see how things pan out in Beta testing. FD are trying to solve what is probably an unsolvable problem. I wish them luck, because I've waited a long time for this game.

 

[Kezzer]

So you were travelling at more than the proposed speed limit then when you collide with one another, unless I have misread what Michael had posted, unless you breach this speed limit you should not get fined.

I do not agree with the 7 day wait period before you can continue operating within the system you have been bountied in with fear of being hunted down, I think that others have come with good alternatives, and as of yet, this still has to be seen in Beta, and it may get tweaked again and again or even amended or dropped before it is released live to all players.

I also have been the victim of these senseless idiots and lost millions of credits, I am not alone and find it incredibly frustrating that they can or seem to get away with it, maybe we should be allowed to submit them to a name shame group or something.

I agree with a couple of the other posts where they say, it's difficult to get the balance correct due to some idiots who simply want to cause nothing but grief for everyone else, unfortunately, that's what happens when we deal with humans, I don't know of any game where idiots have not found some form of exploit just to ruin it for the other players, but i'll be damned if I will cave in to them, lets wait and see what's happens in the Beta trials.

Kind regards
Kezzer a.k.a CMDR SOS4Biz

 

[Rankaze]

Absolutely. It seems silly to have it apply to NPCs in the first place, as it's designed to be an anti-griefing measure. You can't "grief" an NPC. Most of the people I've seen mentioning accidental collisions were referring to collisions with NPCs, so removing them from the equation would make the system far less frustrating in general.

Exactly this. I've accidentally played Station Billiards with the NPC's a few times, and let's be honest about this. When it's only NPC's and nobody's fun is being ruined, it can be pretty funny sometimes.

But I have never collided with another CMDR. I don't want to be that guy ruining someone else's day.

Sure, in the BBR7, I came close a couple of times, but those CMDR's were other BBR participants. They were aware of and knew the risk. Even if I had smashed one of them, I'd have done my best to make it up to them somehow... maybe drop 'em some gold somewhere or whatever.

Outside of events like that, I don't fly recklessly around other CMDR's. Just like I don't drive recklessly on the roads. I have more respect for others than that.

I also wouldn't mind if ramming an NPC was a fine and ramming a player was a bounty. That'd be A-OK.

But, well... I actually enjoy docking and undocking now. If any little plink off an NPC at 101 m/s is a bounty, the risk of trying to make a quick turnaround is simply too high to justify... and docking goes from being fun to being a terrible chore.

And I just can't see myself being long for this game after that.

 

[daylan]

I go away for a month and stuff changes....
I dont like the idea of bounties ever becoming anything else over time. Unless npc bounty hunters will hunt me for legacy fines I feel the bounty system has been ruined for players like me who don't run into players with any regularity.

 

[Weps]

I dont like the idea of bounties ever becoming anything else over time. Unless npc bounty hunters will hunt me for legacy fines I feel the bounty system has been ruined for players like me who don't run into players with any regularity.

You can keep a certain bounty in a jurisdiction active indefinitely simply by performing another crime in that jurisdiction within the 7 days it takes for the bounty to turn into the legacy fine. For example shooting any security ship. This will reset the bounty expiration period to another 7 days, besides adding to the total bounty value.

 

[daylan]

You can keep a certain bounty in a jurisdiction active indefinitely simply by performing another crime in that jurisdiction within the 7 days it takes for the bounty to turn into the legacy fine. For example shooting any security ship. This will reset the bounty expiration period to another 7 days, besides adding to the total bounty value.

One week is no time at all in the grand scheme of things. I would like a bounty hunter to come after me for atrocities commited while I spent some time living in independent space. I am begging for real consequences.

 

[Commander Dini]

You know all this reminds me of something.



If you put everything to a vote, you end up with nothing of worth because the most important thing to creating something great is vision. Crowds do not have vision.

This is what crowds have:




Even the best game designer in the world cannot predict all the consequences of design decisions. This is why making great video games is tough. You have to try out ideas and see how they work. Speculation is a waste of time, because if the best designers in the world can't predict what will actually happen, you can bet 99.99% of the audience can't either.

And if there happens to be a superhuman genius in the midst, they won't get heard, because they will be severely outnumbered.

 

[Rankaze]

A note:

From the no-fire zone of an Orbis, setting my throttle at a speed of 94 m/s (with a certain amount of variation while maneuvering and on approach to the docking pad), it took me one minute and eleven seconds to dock. Reasonable to assume it will take about 2/3 as long to undock (you'll get out of masslock well before you get to the no-fire zone)... a little over two minutes docking and undocking.

Given that a trader's life consists of jump->supercruise->dock->undock->jump... how many times are they multiplying that two minutes over the course of an evening?

Gonna take a bite out of profits, folks.

EDIT: For comparison, using my normal/typical approach, I just docked from the no-fire limit in 29 seconds.

 

[Entilzar]

I was doing a bit of testing today in my t9 over the proposed 100 m/s speed limit and came up with a few issues that may need looking at, although not big issues that caused any problems to my game play, first of all , 100 m/s through the slot is very very slow even for a t9, the constant adjustments with the stations rotation was very hard to keep up wit, I wasn't running shields and was constantly getting scraped by the station, causing damage ( not a big deal as damages are low now), secondly due to the speed being so slow, ( I know the NPCs havnt been adjust in live server yet ) I was in the slot entry a long time and it was getting at points where lots of small ships were just sat hovering while I was coming through.

thirdly when exiting the station every time I got outside I got a loitering warning cause I was going so slow I wasn't clearing the docking slot fast enough. which atm isn't an issue cause ill clear it in plenty of time, but the first couple of times the warning made me jump and I hit the outside bars.

lastly I found that 100 m/s was quite hard to keep under even in a T9, I had to either keep 2 pips in engines or keep the gear down the entire time in the no fire zone, yes I know you don't have to stay under 100 m/s if your careful to avoid stuff, but with an imposed speed limit that can result in bounties folks would likely try to stick to it to avoid that issue especially traders that wont want get a bounty on there trade route that they cant pay off for 7 days and have to get killed to clear it. further more it takes a really long time to clear the no fire zone at 100 m/s speed that jumping out feel very time consuming, after a bit of playing about with it. I found that in a T9 that the speed of between 150 to 175 m/s was sufficiently slow enough not to block the docking slot, clear the slot in time and leave the system and not cause damage in and out of the station, also the one ship I hit at that speed ( on purpose for research reasons ) just slip past me and continued its path into the station, with no damage and only 3% to my unshielded ship.

Maybe you could give this info some consideration for your 1.3 update, as I think may folks will find this speed limit very low and will cause many issues of blocked entryways.

Kind Regards

Enty

 

[Weps]

One week is no time at all in the grand scheme of things. I would like a bounty hunter to come after me for atrocities commited while I spent some time living in independent space. I am begging for real consequences.

I believe the mechanic of interstellar bounties (which won't make it in 1.3) is going to provide this type of gameplay. Once all your fines and bounties for minor factions of a major faction reach a certain value, they will be cumulated in one big bounty claimable in the entire major faction space. This means that committing any crime in that major faction's space within 7 days will reset the interstellar bounty for that major faction, and people will be able to hunt you anywhere in that space.

You also mentioned independent space (minor factions not aligned with major factions). Independent systems won't get to benefit from interstellar bounties because they are not part of the major factions, so they will be somewhat between anarchy and civilized space (criminal history in an independent system will only be relevant if you travel to that system).

Of course there are ways to improve the system, and FDEV will balance it in the future as they see fit. One way to change it would be for the duration of the bounty to be related to its value:

less than 100k bounty = 7 days
100k bounty threshold = 14 days
200k bounty threshold = 21 days and so on....

On a similar note, people have asked that small bounties (200cr ones) should be payable immediately. We'll see....

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Of course there are ways to improve the system, and FDEV will balance it in the future as they see fit. One way to change it would be for the duration of the bounty to be related to its value:

less than 100k bounty = 7 days
100k bounty threshold = 14 days
200k bounty threshold = 21 days and so on....

On a similar note, people have asked that small bounties (200cr ones) should be payable immediately. We'll see....

Other than making it easier to program, I really cannot see an argument against the duration of the bounty depending on its size. Especially when it is small.

 

[Zueuk]

The galaxy is similar to a "Wild West" scenario - bounties are issued to encourage folk to dispatch villains.

And yet, you contradict yourself by stating that we cannot shoot an obvious villain (that we see attacking cops, for example) without scanning him first:

This includes firing upon a vessel without first confirming its legal status

Please change this. It is counter-intuitive and adds nothing to gameplay except frustration.

If somebody's wanted, then - just as you said above - it means that people are encouraged to kill him.

If I see somebody attacking a cop, or another clean target, it is quite obvious that no confirmation is needed to attack him, in fact waiting for confirmation would endanger his victim(s). This is how real world logic works, and this is what players expect.

By forcing us to wait for the scan to finish in this case you don't let us to make an important decision by ourself. If he turns out to be clean - then it'll be assault, but we should not be punished for shooting villains.
THIS is what "staying in control" is - making correct decisions fast, not waiting for a computer to let me do something.

 

[mnemon]

A note:

From the no-fire zone of an Orbis, setting my throttle at a speed of 94 m/s (with a certain amount of variation while maneuvering and on approach to the docking pad), it took me one minute and eleven seconds to dock. Reasonable to assume it will take about 2/3 as long to undock (you'll get out of masslock well before you get to the no-fire zone)... a little over two minutes docking and undocking.

Given that a trader's life consists of jump->supercruise->dock->undock->jump... how many times are they multiplying that two minutes over the course of an evening?

Gonna take a bite out of profits, folks.

EDIT: For comparison, using my normal/typical approach, I just docked from the no-fire limit in 29 seconds.

You can still dock at maximum speed when there's no traffic without getting fined?

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

You can still dock at maximum speed when there's no traffic without getting fined?

Yes. The speed is only significant if you collide.

 

[excalibus]

And yet, you contradict yourself by stating that we cannot shoot an obvious villain (that we see attacking cops, for example) without scanning him first:



Please change this. It is counter-intuitive and adds nothing to gameplay except frustration.

If somebody's wanted, then - just as you said above - it means that people are encouraged to kill him.

If I see somebody attacking a cop, or another clean target, it is quite obvious that no confirmation is needed to attack him, in fact waiting for confirmation would endanger his victim(s). This is how real world logic works, and this is what players expect.

By forcing us to wait for the scan to finish in this case you don't let us to make an important decision by ourself. If he turns out to be clean - then it'll be assault, but we should not be punished for shooting villains.
THIS is what "staying in control" is - making correct decisions fast, not waiting for a computer to let me do something.

I would say that it is obvious that confirmation is needed or you will get a bounty, as per micheals response in the dev update thread that if we do not wait for confirmation then a bounty will be issued and so that is the way the system is designed to work...

 

[CaptainKremmen]

<snip>From the no-fire zone of an Orbis, setting my throttle at a speed of 94 m/s (with a certain amount of variation while maneuvering and on approach to the docking pad), it took me one minute and eleven seconds to dock.
<snip>

Well, I doubt it was wall-to-wall ships from the start of the NFZ to the docking pad!

Would you really fly at 94 m/s just because you were technically in the NFZ? I certainly wouldn't. I've got my eyes and a scanner to tell me where other ship are. If I've got nobody around me, I'm sure as hell not going to fly at 94m/s.


FD aren't adding a police speed trap. We don't get pinged for flying like maniacs...

We get pinged for flying into other people like maniacs.


How about trying that test again, going at full speed when you enter the NFZ, then slowly throttling back as you get closer to other ships and the station? What's your time then?

 

[Rankaze]

Well, I doubt it was wall-to-wall ships from the start of the NFZ to the docking pad!

Would you really fly at 94 m/s just because you were technically in the NFZ? I certainly wouldn't. I've got my eyes and a scanner to tell me where other ship are. If I've got nobody around me, I'm sure as hell not going to fly at 94m/s.


FD aren't adding a police speed trap. We don't get pinged for flying like maniacs...

We get pinged for flying into other people like maniacs.


How about trying that test again, going at full speed when you enter the NFZ, then slowly throttling back as you get closer to other ships and the station? What's your time then?

I'm specifically addressing what has to be done to be at no risk whatsoever under the update as described.

It's already been mentioned by others that a ship in Silent Running out near the no fire limit could be used to provoke a collision. I'll grant that would be difficult... but not impossible. And if I am a trader with a T9 full of Palladium, I think I would not be taking any chances.

Of course, I am not much of a trader. Even my jack-of-all-trades Alliance pilot has a higher Combat rank than Trading rank. Actual traders might be more comfortable with that kind of financial risk than me. The highest financial risk that I am likely to face is the rebuy of my ship (currently a Vulture, soon to be a Fer-de-Lance) + a few million in bounty vouchers.

Now, if they do as they say they are considering and alter the consequences based on the damage dealt, well... that might change my approach a bit. I'm fairly confident I can turn any collision, even someone trying to ram me, into a glancing blow. Much more confident than I am in my ability to completely avoid that collision altogether.

Honestly, if the update goes in as planned, I will probably do as much of my docking as possible at outposts thereafter. Outposts are much less trafficked, have much smaller no-fire zones, have no mailslot for would-be griefers to abuse, and have lots more open space around them to evade a collision in whatever direction I see fit.

Plus, the open nature of outposts allows all sorts of fun approaches to be taken, like using FA-off rolling flips to align oneself to the pad if approaching from the wrong side. Sadly, finding an outpost with a decent Outfitter is difficult.

Also, I have an intense dislike for being punished for an incident I did not cause. It is sort of a personal raw nerve. If the only way I can avoid having that raw nerve stepped on is to fly so slowly that I cannot be found at fault in a collision... I will loathe it, but it is what I will do.

So, yeah, I probably will be flying my approaches to staions exactly the way I flew that test, on those occasions when circumstances force me to dock at an actual station.

Also, that test was done from almost straight-on to the station. If you come out of Supercruise at a bad angle, or especially on the wrong side of the station, it's much worse than those numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

You can still dock at maximum speed when there's no traffic without getting fined?

I have never once seen an actual Station with zero traffic. At the minimum they have their patrol ships (which remain infamous for ramming while trying to scan, I should note) and a couple of other ships about.

Outposts are another matter. They are often without traffic.

 

[kingchub]

im just going to use a dc.

i guess the real danger is leaving the station.

im far more likely to want to boost through the mailslot as i usally do these days.

kinda sucks that would be taken away i have to admit.

 

[kingchub]

ok. DEVS pls take a look the video in this thread.

The rammers couldnt give a hoot if the station fires at them or not.

i stand by my idea of maiking ships invulnerable in the NFZ.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

ok. DEVS pls take a look the video in this thread.

The rammers couldnt give a hoot if the station fires at them or not.

i stand by my idea of maiking ships invulnerable in the NFZ.

Making the game worse for the majority of well behaved players in a pointless attempt to control the naughty boys is a waste of time and resources and will simply frustrate everyone.

Just ban them.