ED and the Oculus Rift Developers Kit 2 (DK2) Discussion Thread

For those people thinking that a new graphics card will solve althose problems, just to let you know. I had a new system built with an O/C 980 ( before I started to have problems with it) and King5ton will back me up on this. Even O/C 980s still only get 75fps with beta 2, on low setting,no aa, slider All the way to the right though and with no super sampling. Start to add some eye candy and you get judder.

I concur.

Hmm - interesting, I use two stock-clocked GTX 680s in SLI, did some benchmarks on default max settings only with FXAA disabled and I get stable 75 FPS (lowest drop I got in stations was 72 FPS).

I would have assumed that a GTX 980 would outperform my setup - are you sure it wasn't related to the other problems you ran into?

Anyway - I'd like to upgrade, but I'll wait for the CV1 and build a system around that.

A lot depends on where you are, what ship you are in, what kind of station you are in.
Some ships hit performance a bit. Biggest ship I've had is a Lakon 6 and it was the worst performer or least sharing worst with the Cobra. Sidies are ok as are Eagles and Vipers, Haulers are somewhere in in the middle.

Some stations hit performance more than others do. The more complex the worse the performance.

Where you are also makes a difference. Station entrances seem the worst in my experience.

Running the game well in deep space with certain ships is one thing, trying to get a minimum 75fps all the time (which is what you want) is another thing entirely even with high end hardware.

Hopefully performance will improve as time goes on with help from FD, OVR and the GPU companies.
 

At least your DK2 is working, had this one here for a week now and not seen a blue light or screen image on it yet (whatever mode)! Tried just about everything to get it going, usb port swapping, firmware updating, new cables, clean machine, clean drivers, other machines etc etc ... a whole host of things tried, finally emailed support on Friday for suggestions or a replacement. :(

So close but so far ... deep breaths ... deep breaths. :)

If it makes you feel any better Pacal, my DK2 has been sitting in its box under my PC desk since it arrived last Tuesday afternoon.

Why life has to throw such a busy time my way when the future of PC gaming is sitting in a box by my feet, unused, I don't know. :(
 
Your GPU is seriously letting you down; you have two choices, either pull the trigger on a GTX970/980 or simply go 2D with ED for now.

I'm sorry but I have the same issue, it is not the gpu letting him down. Have a dk2 and GeForce 760. Beta 1 worked Great @ 1920 x 1080. Also beta 2 worked just as good. Then one day it stoped working great and I get the same lag/jutter while moving my head around. No matter what res and graphic settings I set in ED I still get this issue.
 
First off I'm sorry to hear a few people have received dead dk2's on arrival, that must be so frustrating.

I guess part of the problem is people are using different benchmarks with lots of variables? Some are testing in hangars, others stations / space / planet rings). I've still not decided if running my monitor at 75 Mhz is making any difference to my DK2 (read reports it helps some but not all users). Others have mentioned even different ships effect fps?

Personally I suspect robdood was right when he said Beta 2.x is never 100% judder free (on initial startup / loading new areas etc) due to software rather than hardware.

Yeah, I think at present there are too many instances and cases that judder could occur some of which go beyond simply what graphics card you have and this is likely to be true for the future as well. Things like internet lag, large data uploads to the cards over a few frames, what type of ship, cpu load from other services/apps, hardware etc.

In fact I suspect you'll never get 100% judder free on the Rift, now or ever as PC' are such complex beasts, there will always be a time where a frame takes longer than the refresh rate. All we can hope for is that it is minimised or only shows as micro-stutters which perhaps can be coded around or specific display hardware might be able to mask.

Something I ended up taken into consideration in my new system, though i'm not expert on these things, is that I almost went for a i7 5820k, it was the best deal for the price but its 28 lanes really put me off as this means you can't run sli at x16/x16 instead its going to be x16/x8. However as in sli both cards are going to need the same data in order to render the correct output surely the x16 is going to have to wait on the x8?

Now from what I can tell that means a max throughput of data to the card of almost 16GB (PCI-e 3.0) to one card but only 8GB to the other. Sounds like alot doesn't it? However at 75 fps that is only 108MB a frame (at 90 fps thats only 88MB) and when a single uncompressed 4kx4k texture is almost 90MB, its entirely possible that coming into a new area or streaming in a lot of new data in a single frame could saturate that bandwidth.

There are tests which show that currently in all games 28 vs 32 or more lanes has no noticeable difference on average framerate, but they didn't test for micro-stutters, nor at v-sync.

In the end I didn't feel safe going for the 5820k and went with 5930k instead as I wont be buying a new system for at least 4 years maybe longer as I feel not much as been done in terms of analysing how x8/x8 on PCI-e 3.0 will affect games that load large amounts of data. I suspect i've over-compensated, but I know i'd just be constantly worrying about it otherwise.


A lot depends on where you are, what ship you are in, what kind of station you are in.
Some ships hit performance a bit. Biggest ship I've had is a Lakon 6 and it was the worst performer or least sharing worst with the Cobra. Sidies are ok as are Eagles and Vipers, Haulers are somewhere in in the middle.

Some stations hit performance more than others do. The more complex the worse the performance.

Good point about the different ships, I would propose its either due to open cockpit variety or lack of optimising in beta or a bit of both. As I've said I suspect ED is currently and always will be fillrate limited, meaning that the larger your resolution the worse performance will get and I think in a non-linear fashion (but haven't bothered to work out it that's true). So my guess is enclosed cockpits mean ED will be able to use the depth buffer to reject many more pixel operations in a view before doing any calculations and thus some ships will be less demanding, to a degree than others.

As for stations, yep some big differences. Back in beta 2.02 or 2.03 I was getting 40 fps on my GTX465 in the less demanding dodecahedron stations, but in others (the bright white one) it would drop to 25 fps or less. I'm hopeful Frontier can/will perform a decent optimisation path for these before release, it doesn't make any sense to me that inside stations complexity should be allowed to vary so much as to effectively half ones framerate.


I wouldn't build for the CV1, I have a feeling it will be a long time coming. Judging from Brendan Iribe's speech at Oculus Connect, they want it to have no visible pixels; so that probably means a 4k screen. Will two 980's in SLI be enough for 90 Hz and 4k resolution? I don't know.

Actually I was watching an interview/play test of Crescent Bay by one of the guys from Tested and Oculus were very cagey about the new screen. They refused to give resolution information, but Norm from Tested commented about how good it looked, even compared to the Samsung Gear VR 2560x1440. Speculating that they may have found other technological solutions to the screen door and overall resolution perception issues. Alternatively perhaps they are going to switch screen manufactures and mentioning a resolution would be too much of a hint? Either way I got the distinct feeling that a 4k screen may not be necessary for Crescent Bay visual quality, which can only be a good thing as I hate to think what gpu would be needed to drive a game like ED on such a massive dpi screen.

Oh and if you've not watched that interview yet I recommend it. One big thing was that the testing room for journalists had no seating and it was clear that Norm had absolutely no problems going through the many experiences standing up. Granted none of them seemed to involve travelling, but still I believe that is another step forward.
 
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Well finally got the DK 2 out of its box and set up for a quick look before my early shift. Got it going pretty much straightaway with the desk demo from the OR config page. Didn't have time to mess too much with the personal settings but had a look at the IPD tool.

If I understand it right I'm supposed to look at the green lines in turn at the edges until a small amount is visible? How much is small? Like a shadow of green, or a thin full visible green line?

Tried the senza peso demo but it failed to launch, said I had a dll file missing?

Also tried Cineveo and it loaded the theatre and I could see the 4 movies I had put into the folder, but when I selected a film all I could see was a white screen?

Finally tried the Helix Rollercoaster worked well but, in hindsight, was probably not the best idea before a drive and a full day's work! Nauseacity!!

Will have a good look at it tonight but any info on the IPD tool, that missing Senza Peso dll file, or the Cineveo issue would be welcome.
 
Regarding GPU's, we're in the same position hardware wise that we were with CPU's in the 90's, namely the edge of the envelope is rapidly approaching.

The solution then and the solution now will be to stack GPU's on the same core so effectively compressing 2,3 or even 4 GPU's into one in order to get the required performance. We've already seen this with crude SLi and the new R9 twin core GPU from AMD but in the case of the R9 they seriously need to look at their pricing, I mean £2k for a GPU lol.

The problem with this is the bandwidth of one slot, so these monsters would probably span two slots or even go with a new architecture. The other problem is the double-headed monster of power supply and it's side-kick heat; we're heading towards 2kw psu's which will have to sit outside any chassis.

Doubtless NVidia and AMD are working on these already as no doubt VR is the future and it's going to need some serious ponies to get there.

Five years from now we'll look at the DK1/2 and shake our heads in wonderment that such a crude device could herald a revolution in entertainment.
 
Just made myself a new rig with a SLI of gtx970 OC and a i5 4690k
SLI in AFR2 and VR pre rendered frame to 1, all settings to high except environment to low
I get solid 75 FPS and judder free experience everywhere ( stations, asteroids) flying an eagle.
Same thing with SSAA at 1.5 in graphic file xml

Only downside is its a very power hungry system ^^ better got a SLI certificate power supply and a good case
 
The problem with this is the bandwidth of one slot, so these monsters would probably span two slots or even go with a new architecture. The other problem is the double-headed monster of power supply and it's side-kick heat; we're heading towards 2kw psu's which will have to sit outside any chassis.

Doubtless NVidia and AMD are working on these already as no doubt VR is the future and it's going to need some serious ponies to get there.

Five years from now we'll look at the DK1/2 and shake our heads in wonderment that such a crude device could herald a revolution in entertainment.

I hadn't noticed or heard that GPU's were topping out, do you have any references to that as it would be interesting to read up on. Regardless they are going to obviously hit diminishing returns at some point, but i'm not sure off-hand when that will happen since they are quite a different beat to CPU's which really don't seem to be advancing much these days ( I think I read each new i7 gen is something like 10% better?)

Bandwidth will be assisted with the release of PCI-e 4.0 in the next year or so, but will obviously take time to filter down. That will again double the bandwidth of current PCI-3 3.0 so on a x16 lane close to 32GB/s.

Its not just VR that needs better GPU's, even top of the line cards in SLI can't get above 30fps high/ultra settings in 4K in some games. UHDTV (3840 × 2160) is afterall 4 times the number of pixels to fill over 1080p HD! I also suspect traditional 2D display is going to be harder to solve with multiple cards than VR since in the latter you can split work per eye.

Not sure I share your confidence in 5 years from now looking back at DK1/2 being such a downgrade. VR seems to be moving really slowly, Oculus are already something like a year behind their own initial schedule, the supporting tech like GPU's will struggle with going to much higher resolutions. The scene will definitely look different, but I suspect not quite as advanced as you believe or I would like ;)

Personally I think we are looking at 10-20 years before VR becomes truly mainstream, it will have its early adopters within specific markets, but the technology isn't there yet and needs to be shrunk and designed to be much more acceptable for people to wear and for long time periods. The good news though is after 30-40 years we finally seem to be on the right path and making real progress in terms of it being a consumable.
 
Just made myself a new rig with a SLI of gtx970 OC and a i5 4690k
SLI in AFR2 and VR pre rendered frame to 1, all settings to high except environment to low
I get solid 75 FPS and judder free experience everywhere ( stations, asteroids) flying an eagle.
Same thing with SSAA at 1.5 in graphic file xml

Only downside is its a very power hungry system ^^ better got a SLI certificate power supply and a good case

Interesting stats, thanks for posting. Although I didn't go sli, its good to know that in 3-6 months should I need it for the release of ED that it should provide the performance required.

One thing I really wish Frontier would do is release a benchmarking tool within the Elite engine. A pre-canned flight path out of a station and into another one, where you can select different ships (perhaps only ones you've bought). I really think it needs a good bench marking utility to assist those who want to judge relative capabilities of gpu's, SLI etc.
 
Interesting stats, thanks for posting.

Likewise - thanks to RaistlinUK, Catpain kirk, King5ston, atlas974 and any others I've missed. Found the stats very interesting! Helped manage my expectations down a bit. Slightly disappointed but I guess that's Beta software on Beta hardware :D
 
QQ - how do you select stars in the Galaxy map when using the Rift?
I can pan and zoom the map with the mouse, but am having real trouble selecting stars.

At the moment I haven't mapped the galaxy map controls to my Warthog HOTAS, so am using a trackball.
 
Hell yeah im yellow I ordered on 19 september! Thats just little more than 3 weeks this is amazing!

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I think the only real solution to VR's current massive increase in rendering complexity (rendering resolution, distortion passes) and the needed horsepower will be a combination of ultra precise eye-tracking and foveated rendering.

Maybe we will see completely new/different rendering approaches for this or even customized rendering hardware. VR accelerators? :)
 
I think the only real solution to VR's current massive increase in rendering complexity (rendering resolution, distortion passes) and the needed horsepower will be a combination of ultra precise eye-tracking and foveated rendering.

Maybe we will see completely new/different rendering approaches for this or even customized rendering hardware. VR accelerators? :)

That is one way of looking at it. VR resolution is limited by screen technology. Graphics cards are just about keeping up with the current screens. So as long as both can develop at a similar pace it might take care of itself. Plus there will be a point where the resolution and refresh rate is enough to fool the eye completely and then the race can calm down a bit.

I think the recent announcements of card manufacturers working on specific VR technologies with Oculus mean the extra burden of VR should be reduced.
 
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Running the game well in deep space with certain ships is one thing, trying to get a minimum 75fps all the time (which is what you want) is another thing entirely even with high end hardware.

Hopefully performance will improve as time goes on with help from FD, OVR and the GPU companies.

I'm finding that I can happy hit rock solid 75fps in most situations with graphics on HIGH + SMAA, where I have lower frame rates, mainly in stations and rings, I still find that LOW settings are not hitting 75fps. So I run in HIGH + SMAA all the time, why make things look poor when it doesn't really help? I Do turn blur off though as all it seems to do is make the frame rate tank with no visual benefit. Although I'm not always at 75fps when it drops slightly it's still close enough to 75 that I've got used to it and it doesn't bother me that much these days.

One thing we can say is that Elite Dangerous definitely isn't optimised yet and likely still has chunks of debug code in there. This is exactly as things should be at this stage of development. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few bottlenecks that can be improved once the code becomes stable enough to start being optimised. I've been trying Alien Isolation and with the settings on ULTRA I'm almost never dropping off 75fps.
 
I hadn't noticed or heard that GPU's were topping out, do you have any references to that as it would be interesting to read up on. Regardless they are going to obviously hit diminishing returns at some point, but i'm not sure off-hand when that will happen since they are quite a different beat to CPU's which really don't seem to be advancing much these days ( I think I read each new i7 gen is something like 10% better?)

Bandwidth will be assisted with the release of PCI-e 4.0 in the next year or so, but will obviously take time to filter down. That will again double the bandwidth of current PCI-3 3.0 so on a x16 lane close to 32GB/s.

Its not just VR that needs better GPU's, even top of the line cards in SLI can't get above 30fps high/ultra settings in 4K in some games. UHDTV (3840 × 2160) is afterall 4 times the number of pixels to fill over 1080p HD! I also suspect traditional 2D display is going to be harder to solve with multiple cards than VR since in the latter you can split work per eye.

Not sure I share your confidence in 5 years from now looking back at DK1/2 being such a downgrade. VR seems to be moving really slowly, Oculus are already something like a year behind their own initial schedule, the supporting tech like GPU's will struggle with going to much higher resolutions. The scene will definitely look different, but I suspect not quite as advanced as you believe or I would like ;)

Personally I think we are looking at 10-20 years before VR becomes truly mainstream, it will have its early adopters within specific markets, but the technology isn't there yet and needs to be shrunk and designed to be much more acceptable for people to wear and for long time periods. The good news though is after 30-40 years we finally seem to be on the right path and making real progress in terms of it being a consumable.


Not really any scientific basis to my ramblings, just a strong feeling of Déja vu
having been around computers for 30 years.

I think the delays in OR are more to do with hardware, especially the screen. They know as well as anyone that the VR view has to be priority and it's just not there yet with off the shelf technology.

I suspect (and hope) that they're investing in a custom made screen specific to CV1 that will absolutely blow people away with it's resolution and clarity.

The problem is that the screen is only half of the equation, so even if the screen were ready, then the power to drive it acceptably isn't there either. Custom VR GPU's will happen but again it's investment and time.

So in short, even though it looks like not a lot is happening, in fact it's a case of trying to force technology to catch up with the theory, though I do believe that at a given point everything will mesh together and overnight we will have a viable technology that will change the World.

I don't think that VR will be a minority past-time, humans by nature are primarily visual and by and large we like to take ourselves away from the day to day humdrum either through drink or drugs, VR offers more than this with more intensity and involvement.

I still stand by the 5 years, so before 2020 at least; once people 'get' VR there will be no holding back, personally I can't wait... :D
 
QQ - how do you select stars in the Galaxy map when using the Rift?
I can pan and zoom the map with the mouse, but am having real trouble selecting stars.

At the moment I haven't mapped the galaxy map controls to my Warthog HOTAS, so am using a trackball.

The UI select key, move the 4 arrow icon to the star and press the UI select key.
 
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