External View [A definitive discussion]

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Rog, you dont want that, but I dont think you speak for everyone here.

I am happy with some form of drone to do some sort of outside view, and happy with windows through the ship you can look out of, and indeed, isnt that already in the plan?

for others, some want to be able to switch instantly between the 2, with a complete range of control outside of the ship. (iirc NeoRacer* is one person who is offended by any limitations put on the view which may effect his potential video editing, both in and out of combat).
*If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

This is a dangerous proposition and one I am glad is not happening.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This is interesting... Can you elaborate on this?

So in this flight sim, they struggled with a similar issue where external (arcade view?) could give a competitive advantage? How did they address it? And you imply people use the external view still to get an advantage?

There is, (an advantage) and they didn't (address it).

they added a "simulation mode" which forces cockpit view and also joystick controls.....

However it also has a whole load of other stuff which puts people off - ie 2 bombs then fly back to base etc etc which means it takes an age to get a game. I dont mind so much, its a f2p game and i have gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it and will continue to do so.

(check it out, it is free so nowt to lose)

but it is no elite.

 

[NeilF]

Rog, you dont want that, but I dont think you speak for everyone here.

I am happy with some form of drone to do some sort of outside view, and happy with windows through the ship you can look out of, and indeed, isnt that already in the plan?

for others, some want to be able to switch instantly between the 2, with a complete range of control outside of the ship. (iirc NeoRacer* is one person who is offended by any limitations put on the view which may effect his potential video edition, both in and out of combat).
*If I am wrong feel free to correct me.

This is a dangerous proposition and one I am glad is not happening.

Everyone has their own priorities and goals. Any feature list will never please everyone one.

But I do think, as regards external view, there are one or two features that could be easily offered in the "middle ground" that could please a lot of people, while upsetting next to no one.

 

[Stormprooter]

I like Freelancer.....

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Everyone has their own priorities and goals. Any feature list will never please everyone one.

But I do think, as regards external view, there are one or two features that could be easily offered in the "middle ground" that could please a lot of people, while upsetting next to no one.

indeed. and I think they will (attempt at least to) provide it.

 

[CMDR Texas Stu]

Space 'Selfies' are what is being discussed here, correct?

 

[Crayfish]

I strongly disagree becasue in this instance the way to negate the advantage is to use a mode which is totally at odds with the game DB is trying to make.

Just curious, where is the source for your opinion of the game David is trying to make? Was it in one of the development videos? If an external camera does make it in to the game then that by definition is the game that David wanted to make, otherwise he won't add it. That's part of the same argument that the OP stated wasn't part of the scope of this thread.

I agree with you in general, I also don't want the game to be a 3PS, but having an external camera view doesn't automatically turn the game into one. Look at FE2 and FFE, both games had external camera views and in both games it was of no use to help you in combat. Though, as I mentioned before, it might help you if you are trying to hide from combat.

Space 'Selfies' are what is being discussed here, correct?

That's the reason I'd like to have an external camera yes. Space ship pr0n and arty shots of my ship in the rings of Saturn.

 

[Rog]

Yep, just pretty much gawping at the loveliness as you progress through the galaxy.

That's it.

 

[Phaedra]

Just curious, where is the source for your opinion of the game David is trying to make?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-bEn2aLJ7U Progress Diary No.3 at 4:10 seems relevant. There may be other statements from David that other people are aware of and that I have overlooked.

The main concern seems to be to get the immersive feeling of controlling a craft that a cockpit view would give. This may be why there have been hints from FD that they might in the future consider a camera drone controlled from within the cockpit.

 

[Crayfish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-bEn2aLJ7U Progress Diary No.3 at 4:10 seems relevant. There may be other statements from David that other people are aware of and that I have overlooked.

Oh god, I'd forgotten about that awful t-shirt! ;-)

Thanks for the link.

 

[NeoRacer]

I dont get the 'a camera drone controlled from within the cockpit' you do realize this is a game right? They can create a virtual free camera anywhere they want. Why do we have to put it into a 'virtual drone'..just make up an imaginary name for the 3p camera view for your own personal fiction. Its pointless if you cant control the ship or DO anything whilst being able to see the view at the same time. Sorry to burst your bubble but its a GAME, on a COMPUTER...If you want it to be super immerse thats fine, play it that way but dont try and revert 25 years of game advances because of it. No exterior views..come onnnnn.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-bEn2aLJ7U Progress Diary No.3 at 4:10 seems relevant. There may be other statements from David that other people are aware of and that I have overlooked.

The main concern seems to be to get the immersive feeling of controlling a craft that a cockpit view would give. This may be why there have been hints from FD that they might in the future consider a camera drone controlled from within the cockpit.

 

[Rog]

It's just to try to keep everybody happy: those who want external views and those who really don't.

If it is functionally adequate and mostly everybody is kept reasonably satisfied, it's a harmless fiction.

 

[NeilF]

I dont get the 'a camera drone controlled from within the cockpit' you do realize this is a game right? They can create a virtual free camera anywhere they want. Why do we have to put it into a 'virtual drone'..just make up an imaginary name for the 3p camera view for your own personal fiction. Its pointless if you cant control the ship or DO anything whilst being able to see the view at the same time. Sorry to burst your bubble but its a GAME, on a COMPUTER...If you want it to be super immerse thats fine, play it that way but dont try and revert 25 years of game advances because of it. No exterior views..come onnnnn.....

It may well just be to deliver a believable external view with believable (& necessary) limitations. It may also set a precedent that other game play can follow. ie: Drone are used for other features/functions?

 

[NeoRacer]

A simple toggle switch would be enough to disable it, ala IL2 style of sims. Fair enough if it turns out most servers have it on so no views I can live with. But in MY server I will want the views. So hope they will be there for me to make use of and enjoy in screenshots & machinima movies.

Heres an old one I made in DCS Blackshark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvLTvDiNf8

It may well just be to deliver a believable external view with believable (& necessary) limitations. It may also set a precedent that other game play can follow. ie: Drone are used for other features/functions?

 

[NeilF]

A simple toggle switch would be enough to disable it, ala IL2 style of sims. Fair enough if it turns out most servers have it on so no views I can live with. But in MY server I will want the views. So hope they will be there for me to make use of and enjoy in screenshots & machinima movies.

Heres an old one I made in DCS Blackshark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvLTvDiNf8

Don't see any need for something to abitrary when it seems we have a simple standard set of "rules" that would work across the board surely?

 

[Dejay]

Haven't we already had the definitive discussion on the external view, that would be the discussion from Frontier where they said, "you aren't getting one".....

Just because the devs said they don't want it doesn't end the discussion. Also what the devs have said seemd to be a reply to "fight and play without cockpit and/or 3rd person". So the negative answer might be to a an entirely different feature. We only want to make nice screenshots and videos. Also the devs reply didn't take into account the proposed nerfs (not in combat, see no ships not on radar).

It' an "appeal to authority" fallacy. That doesn't mean it's not right, just that it isn't automatically "right" because god or the king or the devs have told us so. Of course the devs know what they are doing and have more expertise and know more how the game will work, but that doesn't stop anybody from using logical arguments why they are wrong. So your argument must be dismissed.

I don't see much combat advantage in being able to switch to a third person view. Usually you're much more accurate with your fire when in first person. The extra field of view is nice but is dwarfed by the advantage that head tracking gives and nobody is complaining about that.

There is also the point that if both pilots have the option to use this "advantage" then is it really an advantage? An advantage usually means that one party has options that are not available to the second party.

The advantage would be that you can look backwards and below. It's unrealistic that you can't (rear view mirror hello?) but it does add gameplay suspense. You have to spin around to get a full view and that takes like 6 seconds atm (hopefully less with thruster upgrades). FD want's to keep that suspense ("What's behind me? What's behind me???").

And the path of least resistance would be that ALL pilots have to frequently use the external camera which would take you out of your first person experience. The suggested solution is that you can't see anything that isn't on your radar in the drone view. Also unrealistic, but keeps the suspense and doesn't force players from switching views all the time. And make it non usable in combat, smaller FOV and slow moving.

PS: NeilF if you like feel free to include my image in the OP, if you think it will help people imagine how an external view can be made more immersive (independent of fullscreen snap or not). I'm a bit critical of my mockup because it doesn't really "fit" the style of the ED visuals.

 

[Olrik]

As a SP (90% of the time) gamer + Local MP (10% of the time), ED will seem 'less' (compared to Frontier and FFE) without it. Those views in space/on planet those older games gave you really added a lot to your immersion in the galaxy around you.

Maybe limit it to SP gameplay only if concerned about the MP PvP aspect?

This. I completely agree

 

[Zak Gordon]

And just to clarify the suggestion about why i think it ok to limit an external view (as seen in Frontier and FFE) to the SP game, at a base fundamental level SP and MP games are just different.

We play them for different reasons, they offer different emotional feedback etc.

So don't be afraid (David and Frontier) to make those differences in the dual natures of SP and MP ED. It IS impossible to create exactly the same gameplay experience for both types of game, they are just different on a level that design alone can not address (players expectations and interactions, 'man vs man' mechanic etc).

Let those that are here for the MP mostly, have that different Frontier/FFE like experience in the SP game. It will be like a new game vs the PvP of MP, a different experience, which can be a good thing.

For the SP gamer, especially those that have followed the Elite games for a while, having it 'feel' more like the previous games that were (and are still i would argue) ground-breaking, just a modern updated and improved version of those original games (Frontier and FFE in particular); will be ALL the awesome those fans have been waiting for over the last 20 years!

One very important part of the 'external view' is the word of mouth it can help generate around the internet. Sure we could all make in-cockpit view youtube video's, but like a high octane movie (J.J.Abrams/Michael Bay etc), these do (sadly) often all blur into one another and often look and 'feel' the same.

Their ability to tell a narrative (talking fans forum stories etc) is much reduced due to their generic aspect (no matter how well narrated or 'performed').

My FFE adventure only took off because of all the external view shots i was able to add about that first long play of FFE. Sure FFE didn't look fantastic, but even so the 'cinematic' aspect the external view allowed enabled fans to tell compelling and interesting stories around the internet and for people to get enthused by that, which a fixed from cockpit view would not have been able to do anywhere near as well.

So i feel that is one very important aspect of the advantage of the external view, in relation to 'buzz-generation' and the story telling many fans will want to be able to do with ED.

 

[Captain N]

The devs did long ago shoot down the idea of making separate, different SP and MP experiences for the simple reason they don't have the resources to make two different games.

As for moviemaking, it already is possible to create a wide variety of different shots from a headlook angle that doesn't show the cockpit. It would be just a matter of spending the time to edit such footage into something with a grand narrative.

 

[JeffRyan]

The devs did long ago shoot down the idea of making separate, different SP and MP experiences for the simple reason they don't have the resources to make two different games.

As for moviemaking, it already is possible to create a wide variety of different shots from a headlook angle that doesn't show the cockpit. It would be just a matter of spending the time to edit such footage into something with a grand narrative.

Unnecessarily difficult.