External View [A definitive discussion]

[Captain N]

It isn't difficult at all.

If you're referring to the act of recording the footage.

Good video editing of course never is easy, but if you're making movies you'll have to deal with that anyway.

 

[JeffRyan]

I want a shot of a ship flying towards the enemy opening gun ports and letting loose a barrage of missiles.

This would be ridiculously easy to do with 3rd person. In terms of filming the shot via getting the ship at the right angle in my window, keeping speed and maintaining it.... As well as the other ship isn't under my control but is effectively a seperate body. This is much much more difficult to setup and shoot instead of a simple 3rd person example. THIS is what I mean. And it has nothing to do with editing.

 

[Captain N]

Yeah if you want a specific shot like that, you'd have to do it in multiplayer with another person to fly the ship doing the shooting and I could see that being hard to set up.

Then again you could just fly around collecting shots that look cool and put something together out of those.

 

[Lestat]

Not sure but why not just be able to hit f11 and it take a picture of space depending on how you are facing. When you dock your ship can view them. It will take 2 Photos.

1 One 3D person view looking the direction you are facing inside the cockpit
2 One photo facing your ship in a 3d view at a distance.

Now the Drone I agree can be exploited and we have to address that.

1 It main use is to explore your ship damage. Runs it self and scans ship damage. (Covered by ship insurance if destroyed)
2 It dose use ship fuel to scan your ship. (Uses less fuel when scanning for damage)
3 If the user run the drone manually. It has a high cost for repair or if damage. If destroyed it has a high cost to replace. That if it use for recon or taking cool ship photos. (Insurance dose not cover replacement)
4 It has to stay close to your ship or if it out of range of your ship remote range. It will fly to the nearest base you have to cover the impound cost.
5 Take time to retrieve and dock. (Unless it running it self it will dock faster)
6 User Manual control has no Fly by wire control.

I do agree with the others repeat of topics are annoying.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I want a shot of a ship flying towards the enemy opening gun ports and letting loose a barrage of missiles.

This would be ridiculously easy to do with 3rd person. In terms of filming the shot via getting the ship at the right angle in my window, keeping speed and maintaining it.... As well as the other ship isn't under my control but is effectively a seperate body. This is much much more difficult to setup and shoot instead of a simple 3rd person example. THIS is what I mean. And it has nothing to do with editing.

you know what that would be cool, but elite is NOT a movie making game, it is a lot of things but it isnt that. I just dont see there is anyway of doing what you are asking (controlling the ship and firing whilst in a 3rd person mode) without completley screwing the game mechanics. A few on here have suggested that NO ONE is asking for that, but it seems to me that is precisely what you are asking for.

(IMO) It is madness to affect the balance of the game for the whimsy of a few screen shot/movie makers. There are so many conflicting views in this thread, which is to be expected I guess, but Jeff, really do you think it is sensible or fair to affect the balance of the game by allowing 3rd person battles just for the ability of a few to make videos?

If i am getting you out of context i apologise but it seems to me your wants would completely change the game.

 

[[VR] Shadowman]

As a player with found memories of Frontier, I'll be very sad if E: D lacks any kind of external view. I spent most of my time in external view when landing/taking off, just to get a sense of scale and to enjoy the vista. I used to zoom right out of my ship and look around the starports and similarly change to external view as my ship was climbing up through the clouds and into outer space/watching the landing gear retract and the little details like the radar dish rotating.

I'd also love to be able to take screenshots of my ship, with my chosen decals, colours etc, flying around various POIs, almost like a photo book of my past. (I still enjoy looking back through my WoW screenshots folder for example...) I would be fine with it, if it couldn't be used in or around combat, because I never used to use external view during such times. Maybe with an OR, it will be ok, but I think it would be a real shame if it can't be done, simply because of MP. A real sad loss tbh.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

but I think it would be a real shame if it can't be done, simply because of MP. A real sad loss tbh.

Believe it or not despite my other posts I do agree, and i am the same, when taking off i usually used the eye candy view.

catering to multiplayer does have a lot to answer for (hell even ship balancing so noobs dont get ripped apart vs still actually feeling progression of upgrades is a lot harder in games where PvP is involved.

I am confident FD will come up with *something* but it is a tough ask.

 

[Carbonrough]

... just to add my tuppence worth ... external view would be useful to people new to the game(a training mode) it would allow them to understand the flight mechanics of their vessel !

Other than that I don't really give a toss

Peace,

CR.

 

[Tinman]

Since it keeps coming up I guess I'll have to repeat myself.

MP is NOT the main reason why FD doesn't want a external view (outside of the cockpit). It's a design choice that has to do with how they want you to experience the game...

See my post here where I quote the devs themselves:
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=297298&postcount=47

 

[Gen-Han-Solo]

Ok I am not going to vote in this poll . But think about this you are on a mission and have been told three locations were the ship you are looking for may jump in to a system , you are given or buy 2 or 3 spy cams or censor packs to place in hidden spots . I think that would look cool you get a spy cam view or a censor warning when the ship arrives showing the ship or ships you are looking for . Third person would not work in Elite it would spoil the immersion .D

 

[dannysquid]

My viewpoint has changed a little, simple external view non-combat.

This is what I think too. I think it might be justified as a device to inspect your ship for damage, with overlaid info about systems/cargo etc...

 

[Chock]

Since it keeps coming up I guess I'll have to repeat myself.

MP is NOT the main reason why FD doesn't want a external view (outside of the cockpit). It's a design choice that has to do with how they want you to experience the game...

Just because it is a choice by the devs does not mean it is a good idea; nor does it mean that it will please all prospective customers, or even make commercial sense. For example, it was a design choice by SOE to 'upgrade' the combat system in SWG in the hope that they could then port it to consoles, and look where that got them.

 

[Memnoch]

JFor example, it was a design choice by SOE to 'upgrade' the combat system in SWG in the hope that they could then port it to consoles, and look where that got them.

I hadn't thought about that but that is one thing that would concern me.

For the record, there seems to me to be a simple distinction here between the idea of 1st and 3rd perspective.
The idea of 1st person is so that you are the avatar.

Ahem, sorry. You are experiencing the game from the perspective of your avatar, sitting inside the ship.

As soon as you go to 3rd person, what is your avatar now? It's not the pilot any more. You are the ship! And that's the distinction that I don't think I have seen mentioned before. You aren't the pilot any more, you are the ship. That's not really what I signed up for.

Now this argument started off as an attempt by those who wanted to be able to create cool movies and machinima etc. That's all well and good. to a point. But there still lurks the threat that this view might somehow be used for purposes other than simply filming. A variety of suggestions have been made to hopefully alleviate these fears but still it persists.

And then we see the following:

Shame you can't do course changes while viewing your ship externally? You'd be missing out on some fun there! If you could deploy the drone, move it, and then return your controls to your ship, while the drone was still deployed?

And now perhaps we finally get to it! The mask has slipped and perhaps the real agenda for third person view has reared its ugly head, although perhaps from a vocal minority within those that want third person views.

It might simply be feature creep but once there is an external camera that can be deployed and moved around inevitably some are then going to want to be able to fly their ship around with the camera drone still deployed.

Do we really want this to just be another Freelancer clone?

 

[Lee Storm]

Ill try and keep it simple,
those who are lucky enough to have an Oculus Rift would already have an advantage with being able to track the enemy while in battle

I do believe this was being talked about on the DDF already in regards to OR players and non OR players.
A solution of track locking onto the target, similar to using track ir, lock would break if the target dropped behind the ship, otherwise it works in the same manner as OR and track ir.

Solves the " they use equipment for advantage " and removes the need for immersion breaking 3rd person.

I still believe firmly in DB's idea of the game being " your the pilot " and a comment made by him.. "No 3rd person view"

 

[SpinBlade]

Well, here's my 0.02 credits.

I don't think there should be an arbitrary 3rd person view in the shape of some kind of non-ship-based Godview of the surrounds. But there should definitely be some way to look outside your ship, whether that's a drone and/or a rear-mounted camera that feeds into the HUD somewhere.

To me, a Godview for the sake of a Godview is immersion-breaking, as you can't really imagine a technology scenario for it. But similarly, not having the camera tech to be able to see behind your ship in the next millennium, when we can already do that today in our cars, is immersion-breaking because it's odd and incongruous in a universe full of advanced tech.

Rear-mounted and side-mounted cameras, to me, should be available for purchase at shipyards and the like, but they can quite easily be taken out when hit. When a camera feed in the HUD goes staticky in the midst of a dogfight, that's an immersive gameplay moment, to me. Being aware that you need to go purchase a new one as soon as you get a chance is an immersive narrative line, to me.

 

[Tinman]

Just because it is a choice by the devs does not mean it is a good idea;

Of course not. Some will think it is a good idea (me included), some won't...these things are always subjectiv. I DO however think it's extremely important for creative projects to stick to their vision, whatever medium we are talking about, and not bend over for pressure from the outside if they truely believe in their idea. Let's keep in mind that only FD has the complete picture of what it is they are trying to achieve both in the short and long term.

If however issues are brought to their attention that makes them change their mind about something then that's different. Supercruise being such a change...I don't think this is one of those things though since they have stuck to their previous decision everytime the issue has come up.

...nor does it mean that it will please all prospective customers...

That never happens...ever...no matter what decisions are made.

...or even make commercial sense.

This of course feeds in to the points above. If enough people like their vision it WILL make commercial sense. If not enough people like the vision it will fail. No suprises here.

For example, it was a design choice by SOE to 'upgrade' the combat system in SWG in the hope that they could then port it to consoles, and look where that got them.

So what you are saying is that they abandoned their original vision due to pressure from the outside (in this case their publishers most likely) and the game suffered because of it? Hmm...

 

[Chock]

So what you are saying is that they abandoned their original vision due to pressure from the outside (in this case their publishers most likely) and the game suffered because of it? Hmm...

Nope, what I am pointing out here, is that what seems like it would be a good idea can turn out to be a really bad one (in the case of SWG, a fatal one).

The original Elite did not have fancy external views because it wasn't really a practical proposition in terms of graphics and computing power, but Frontier Elite did have many external views, so things can evolve, particularly when computing power and graphical advances make that desirable.

Being that Elite Dangerous is yet another evolution, with vastly prettier graphics, it seems to me (and to quite a lot of other people too apparently, given the number of threads this subject has spawned) that it would be foolish not to embrace that.

Take a look at the teaser video of the capital ship battle (made by FD themselves). Where is their 'only in the cockpit' vision on that video? I'll tell you where, nowhere to be seen, because they knew that if all it showed was a cockpit view, most people would have said it looked boring. And you know what? They would have been right too.

Check it out if you don't remember it, you can count the in-cockpit shots on one hand, and that's in a video which lasts nearly three minutes, so even FD knew it wouldn't have gone over well to just have cockpit shots in their teaser video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE8B4KptyVI

And what is more, if people see that teaser video, and then buy Elite Dangerous on the strength of it, then find out you can't do all those cool external views, FD are going to be doing what Egosoft had to do with X Rebirth - i.e. hand out a load of refunds for misrepresenting what the game was and hiding from all the scathing reviews. And that will play right into Star Citizen's hands.

 

[NeilF]

Since it keeps coming up I guess I'll have to repeat myself.

MP is NOT the main reason why FD doesn't want a external view (outside of the cockpit). It's a design choice that has to do with how they want you to experience the game...

See my post here where I quote the devs themselves:
http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=297298&postcount=47

I think this quote sets the scene best surely?:-

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

To me this implies the games should be played from the pilots eyes. There will be no flying around in 3rd person/external view dog fighting etc etc. And this sounds perfect!

What is also of special interest, to this thread of course, is the comment in there mentioning "external cameras". Now while this doesn't say or imply it will be a full external view, that's my (& I suspect other peoples) hope. Because, to say again, ED without an external view would be a shame IMHO. ie: Periodically it would be nice to enjoy the game from a more free roaming POV - eg: Leaving a space station and being able to pan around and just enjoy your craft and others passing by etc...

 

[NeilF]

Nope, what I am pointing out here, is that what seems like it would be a good idea can turn out to be a really bad one (in the case of SWG, a fatal one).

The original Elite did not have fancy external views because it wasn't really a practical proposition in terms of graphics and computing power, but Frontier Elite did have many external views, so things can evolve, particularly when computing power and graphical advances make that desirable.

Being that Elite Dangerous is yet another evolution, with vastly prettier graphics, it seems to me (and to quite a lot of other people too apparently, given the number of threads this subject has spawned) that it would be foolish not to embrace that.

Take a look at the teaser video of the capital ship battle (made by FD themselves). Where is their 'only in the cockpit' vision on that video? I'll tell you where, nowhere to be seen, because they knew that if all it showed was a cockpit view, most people would have said it looked boring. And you know what? They would have been right too.

Check it out if you don't remember it, you can count the in-cockpit shots on one hand, and that's in a video which lasts nearly three minutes, so even FD knew it wouldn't have gone over well to just have cockpit shots in their teaser video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE8B4KptyVI

And what is more, if people see that teaser video, and then buy Elite Dangerous on the strength of it, then find out you can't do all those views, FD are going to be doing what Egosoft had to do with X Rebirth - hand out a load of refunds for misrepresenting what the game was.

Your point is basically valid, if a little aggressive!

There's clearly is a camp of people (of which I'm one of, and you as well by the sounds of it) who believe they'd like to view ED periodically from a versatile external view. And I would hope all folks would agree that as long as this could be added in such a way that it does not damage/harm any game mechanics (eg: combat) then what's the harm in having it?

If we call all reach that point, and also can bat around a few problems/solutions, what the harm with that too?

 

[Rog]

Do we really want this to just be another Freelancer clone?

No. Absolutely, definitely not. It looks stupid and arcade-y, to me at least.

I'd just like a simple viewer to enjoy the terrific visuals in the game and throughout the galaxy.

Don't think there's any need to worry about potential 'feature creep' - it's just speculation. I feel *pretty* sure that the FD guys could include a simple viewer that doesn't spoil immersion or provide a 'Freelancer' mode. And if they couldn't, we probably ought to be a bit worried.